Hi its been great to see the new contributors to the forum . I can say I mind 90% of the things getting talked about but minding these things have openned up the flood gates to other memories of my time there .What Im finding hard to mind and hope to talk to others about this soon

But today I have a ? Will Struthers ever change,NO what most of us went through all those years ago is happening again.Children and young adults are still being hurt.

I have just been talking to somone who was telling us about a similar situation as the one I have shared happening to myself with the leaders from the church.
This situation only came alight through Summer last year and yet again the leaders tried to cover it up.Thankfully the child did tell somonone else and got the right help. So no things are no different to they was 40 years ago. SO NOTHINGS HAS CHANGED.

Like so many others, I've found that recent posts have triggered memories but have also given me greater understanding of the SMC ethos -- understanding I'd previously lacked, given the fact that my exposure to Struthers was limited for the most part to the annual summer camps and other special conferences, so I had no first-hand experience of what it was like to live 24/7 within what appears to have been an excessively controlling and even oppressive regime. But isn't it incredible that even with such a relatively limited exposure, I'm still, often painfully, processing stuff fifty-plus years later?! What does that say about SMC? And (help!) about me?!

Again as for others, one of the most seductive elements for me in the draw to SMC in earlier years was what has been referred to as the "deep spiritual experiences" it appeared to provide. I interpret those experiences very differently now (I won't enlarge on that, as I've referred in previous posts to my present understanding of what was taking place in "the meetings" -- anyone interested can find those comments on p.140 in particular as well as elsewhere). Apart from a clearer grasp of what I believe to be the psychological dynamic related to those experiences, I also found that, alongside a fuller understanding of the emotional elements that played such a big part in my relationship with SMC, exposure to a totally different Biblical "hermeneutic" played a major role in leading me into freedom. Forgive the theological terminology but as many of you will know, this lovely word simply means "principles of interpretation" -- and I came to realise, slowly and sometimes painfully, that the hermeneutics SMC applied to Scripture were often deeply flawed. Thankfully, deconstruction has been followed by reconstruction (still going on!).

"Revival" has always been a major topic in Struthers over the years but I believe what is most needed now is not "Revival" but "Reformation". Maybe letters such as Alan Martin's give a glimpse of hope in that direction. That remains to be seen.

On a lighter note, probably because of my relatively limited interaction with SMC folk, I obviously missed the implication that being dowdy was equated with spirituality. I've always loved clothes (and a wee bit of subtle make-up too) and I had the impression that a number of the lady leaders -- including Miss T.! -- took quite a bit of interest in their appearance, at least as far as clothes and hair were concerned (although they may not always have been "on-trend"). I think any references from the pulpit to "vanity" may very well have been an example of the flawed hermeneutic I referred to earlier -- a total misunderstanding of the word as used in Scripture, where it means "futile" or "meaningless" (E.g., in Ecclesiates 1:2 as correctly rendered by most modern translations) and has nothing whatever to do with pride in appearance.

Last but not least, in case all my talk about "hermeneutics" might seem to be disparaging of the good old-fashioned discipline of learning chunks of Scripture such as encouraged by GirlWiston's Mum and Mrs Wallace (and my own Sunday School teachers) -- I think that can only be a good thing, especially when that store of Scripture becomes a treasure-trove in later life, as it certainly has been for me.

P.S. I've said "last but not least" already but must take time to add my heartfelt thanks and continuing prayers for every contributor to this forum -- you have each played a significant part in my journey.

Nice to see some folk finally speak out. It's also seeing some people to say sorry . I just wished others would. They have been alot of hurt caused. Not just by leaders but from alot of ex members now too. If I myself have ever hurt or offended anyone. I am really sorry.

Not one of us can say we are innocent but it does not hurt to say sorry and mean it.

I know whilst I was in the church
. I stood back and let alot of wrong things go on looking back and said nothing. Examples being Letting a mixed up abused girl be banned from the Falkirk meetings. I did what the leaders and the youth leaders said refused to speak to her. I should have been more a friend and spoke up and refused. This was so wrong.

Another example was listenning to Jennifer Jack telling us to stay away from certian other members..

Also one of the youth Leaders shouting at another member for calling him his first name infront of younger children and not his Sir name. Also I mind being so scared to ask any questions and doing everything I could to get the approval of the leaders.Attending every meeting.Spending my lunch breaks in a church every day in pryer.But still felt looked down on I was not good enough.

It is really encouraging to hear and read people speaking out, and even moreso to hear of influential folk within the church speaking out too (although we all know what will happen next).

It's sad to hear many of the problems we hear about from the early days are still prevalent today, and especially concerning to understand that the leadership wish to venerate and idolise those early leaders who caused so much harm (see Diana's "new year word").

Thankfully this forum continues to act as a resource for those harmed by the Struthers Memorial Church, as a public warning to those coming into contact with it, and hopefully, hope for those inside who know wrong is being done and need to speak out/leave.

Good evening all,

It is becoming so difficult to keep up with all the wonderful and varied contributions recently but I am enjoying trying!

blackwatch : Your patience is legendary and your posts have been informed and entertaining. I've read them all! Long may you continue as a valued contributor. On the food/gluttony issue; does anyone recall a story about Hugh Black winning a battle with a seat in an airport lounge? Was this apocryphal or was there any truth to the tale? As I remember there was much mirth shared around this story within the congregation. I share this merely as a humerous anecdote; no malice intended.

ThePetitor : Your reference to the wearing of hats reminds me of the first question I asked when I reconnected with some old friends within SMC. I was interested in whether the wearing of a head covering for women was still in place. The answer was that the matter was no longer enforced. My question was similar to your own; did God change his mind? Was there new scriptural evidence previously missed? Was it simply a new understanding of how to interpret the biblical passages concerned? It made me think; how many small changes like that could take place before the church ceases to be the same church that it was. Could it be that this perceived "drifting" away of the church from the Hugh Black/ Miss Taylor teachings is now worrying the current leader(s) such that they are resorting to enforcing the old mantras. Do they feel the "purity" of the church is being diluted by "modern" thinking? Food for thought.

RedRoad : Your highlighting of Lesley's phrase "death to self" also brought back memories for me. I've had time to reflect on that phrase over the years both as a commited christian and as someone without any belief in a god and it seems to me there is a huge amount of self-reflection and, consequently, self-indulgance in such an approach. . The focus does not seem to be on helping others but on one's own self. Could this be considered selfish? When I moved away from SMC to a mixed denominational group under a Scottish Baptist Banner I found the focus to be mainly on others; their needs and their care. I understand there is a need for both but the SMC approach seemed to veer towards a form of solipsism in my view.

LIZ25 : Liz, many thanks for sharing your story and a warm welcome from me too. I remember you well and it must have been a very scary yet brave move to leave SMC. Your phrase " I have never regretted it" may give hope to some who remain yet wonder how they would ever survive on the "outside". As has been stated before on this forum, there was an implicit and, at times, explicit understanding that spiritual life outwith SMC was, at best, sub-standard and, at worst, spiritual death! Many on here can testify that this need not be the case. Lesley has so succinctly addressed the whole death to self matter in a way that makes so much sense to me now, years later. It goes a long way to explaining the detrimental effects of such a teaching on the vulnerable and trusting individual.

blackwatch: Once again your wonderful clarity of thought and exposition hit the spot. I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of the spiritual experience within SMC; a perfect picture of what was actually happening- smoke and mirrors. Regarding SMC development over the years, my thinking is that the church was "naturally" trying to "mellow" but there still seemed to be a small yet powerful and influential element who were anchored to the teachings of the founders and, as a result, what has transpired is a very real schism. My prediction is that the church will remain, greatly reduced in numbers and containing mainly zealots for the "old, true, spiritual" ways. I do not think the leader(s) will learn anything from the resultant loss, from the well-intentioned letters by Alan and Pauline or from the many testimonies of folks on here with real hurts and grievances. . I believe they will interpret all of this through the lens of a spirituality that puts their thinking and theology above that of others. We will all be wrong. They will still be following the true path towards spiritual renewal. I will be the first to delight in being wrong about this but those are my thoughts.

WestofEast : This is definitely THE correct space to ask such questions and as RedRoad has pointed out, start taking notes!

Iquitthestrutherscult : Beautifully summarised.


To everyone who has posted recently, a huge thank you. Personally, I am finding a strange sense of belonging in spite of not having been involved in SMC for nearly 40 years. I appreciate all the contributions.


101

Wow, so many posts about so many issues. All interesting stuff.

Thanks everyone for all your care, honesty and vulnerability. I have personally felt encouraged by a great deal of what has been said recently.

Just one brief comment which is that 101, in replying to RedRoad, you say,

Quote
101
...it seems to me there is a huge amount of self-reflection and, consequently, self-indulgance in such an approach. The focus does not seem to be on helping others but on one's own self. Could this be considered selfish?

I absolutely agree with this. When it is not on the devil and demons, all the focus from the pulpit is on the self – either how the self feels, or how dead it is, or whether it has a block that needs to be overcome, or how dominant it is in their life.

If anyone is interested in the normal Christian view of “Death to Self” there is a great book by Tim Keller called “The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness”. The whole book is focussed on exactly this point.

Hi All
Thanks to redroad and girlwiston for all the information on Miss Taylor etc.
Just out of curiosity was some of this information in Mr Blacks book a ‘modern Christian mystic’..which was about Miss Taylor? I can’t remember now.

Also I didn’t know Mr Cleary well but a few years after coming into SMC I was at the Keswick convention with a friend from SMC…(we came across it while on holiday and then continued to go) we bumped into Mr Clearly and his wife. I do remember thinking ‘oh no’ what will they say because it was very much preached from the platform ‘do not go to see other preachers or events’ particularly by MB, although the leadership went !! Both Mr clearly and his wife were exceptionally nice…there was only a positive reaction at seeing us there :)

Blackwatch
About your statement
‘I need to be unequivocal here, and I appreciate this contradicts how others feel, but I cannot attribute the SMC experience in any way as a deep spiritual one given the manipulation, trauma, abuse and deep-seated control. For me, the two simply cannot co-exist. There may have been the appearance of such a thing, a mirage if you will, but on reflection, it's empty and vacuous and borne out of smoke, mirrors and lies.’

I would say you have summed up the very thing that has been at the centre of ‘deconstructing’ if you like my experience at SMC.
It is difficult to discuss because on the one hand you do not want to ‘blaspheme against the Holy Spirit’ or put together others experiences with my own in the same ‘pot’ and question it all.
However, in questioning the authenticity of my own experiences, do I not question it all?

I have listened to many discussions/debates between cessationists and continuationists e.g. Dr Michael Brown and Costi Hinn (among many others) in seeking truth.
But maybe it isn’t about this debate but rather about the authenticity of the SMC experience?
John Piper, for example believes in the gifts of the spirit for today (not like SMC) and talks about how these are used in the Church…all biblical.

‘27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts’

He for example testified that he is a ‘teacher’ but does not have the gift of ‘speaking in tongues’ although he has prayed for this experience. At that time my thinking changed to a possible new definition of ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’. But SMC (and possibly others ) would state that John Piper is not filled with Spirit!

Another person who is properly trained as a minister and is a continuationist is Mike Winger. He has a lot of question/answer series and did a very lengthy programme on the dangers of Benny Hinn, who the leadership of SMC endorses.
So there are continuationists who look at the proper, biblical use of the gifts.

So going back to blackwatch ..
The questions I ask are..through these experiences did I grow in depth in the ‘fruits of the spirit’…did I become ‘less self-focused’ …did grace abound even when there was ‘suffering’ e.g. in the death of loved ones. My answer is no…I’ve already stated in a previous post that the opposite happened, legalism and I would say a self-hatred developed and a sense of failure.
I may be completely wrong in this but is self-hatred and self-aggrandisement not two sides of the same coin. So these were the two common (not the only ones)ways of dealing with self in SMC ! Not a healthy holy spirit filled church.
I remember at a youth meeting on a Friday night in Greenock, Alison Speirs (who in my opinion is full of self-aggrandisement) spoke about those with low self-esteem and stated she didn’t know how to deal with them! She relayed this in a very graphic way.
My thinking was ‘but you don’t need to deal with them ….is it not the ministry of the Holy Spirit that does this work within cultivating the fruits of the spirit to make us less self-centered and more like Christ’
So a persons low self-esteem became all about her and how she couldn’t deal with them! Not about the work of the Holy Spirit.
Be interested to hear more thoughts on Blackwatch’s statement.

Hi All,

Coming back again to the "Death to Self" teaching. I remember singing "Oh sanctify me now" many many times very slowly in succession with everyone head in hands and introspecting in a big way. I also remember the toilet in the Greenock church had a super mirror and that if I was on my own I would adjust my hat etc. and make sure I was looking ok, but if there was a queue I never looked in the mirror :-)
I also, like Lesley & like many was not allowed to wear trousers or jeans to college and wore a skirt - was the only one in my class like this but was anyways used to being the only one in the class to: not have TV, not join hockey club (as not allowed to go on away matches), not go to the school dance, not go to cinema, not play outside on a Sunday ... the list is endless of "nots".

I also remember (when very little) in the Port Glasgow sunday school singing: "didn't know how to sing the songs of Zion for I was lost in sin" (lol) so funny now looking back at a 5-year-old singing this - a light funny episode.

All the above to say that: on the one hand trying to being very holy and on the other the just very normal person showing through. For me there was always like two people in my body - as I was naturally conscientious - wanting to please, but on the other hand I was a child / teenager / young adult with all that goes with that stage of life. However, these "natural desires" were often described as the "wiles of the devil". It's a shame that there was not more discernment between the normal biological & emotional construction of a person and and an act that could really be construed as sin.

Happy Sunday to all and please ... keep posting all of this recent activity is helping different people whether posting on the forum or just dipping in for a look. We are not wasting our time ... not at all and may I just take the opportunity to thank the faithful ones who have been posting and encouraging people here since the beginning - it takes time and you rock!

Hi All,

Coming back again to the "Death to Self" teaching. I remember singing "Oh sanctify me now" many many times very slowly in succession with everyone head in hands and introspecting in a big way. I also remember the toilet in the Greenock church had a super mirror and that if I was on my own I would adjust my hat etc. and make sure I was looking ok, but if there was a queue I never looked in the mirror :-)
I also, like Lesley & like many was not allowed to wear trousers or jeans to college and wore a skirt - was the only one in my class like this but was anyways used to being the only one in the class to: not have TV, not join hockey club (as not allowed to go on away matches), not go to the school dance, not go to cinema, not play outside on a Sunday ... the list is endless of "nots".

I also remember (when very little) in the Port Glasgow sunday school singing: "didn't know how to sing the songs of Zion for I was lost in sin" (lol) so funny now looking back at a 5-year-old singing this - a light funny episode.

All the above to say that: on the one hand trying to being very holy and on the other the just very normal person showing through. For me there was always like two people in my body - as I was naturally conscientious - wanting to please, but on the other hand I was a child / teenager / young adult with all that goes with that stage of life. However, these "natural desires" were often described as the "wiles of the devil". It's a shame that there was not more discernment between the normal biological & emotional construction of a person and an act that could really be construed as sin.

Happy Sunday to all and please ... keep posting all of this recent activity is helping different people whether posting on the forum or just dipping in for a look. We are not wasting our time ... not at all and may I just take the opportunity to thank the faithful ones who have been posting and encouraging people here since the beginning - it takes time and you rock!

I was very struck by the insightful comments of A Theist and Amazing Grace on the whole business of "death to self", pointing out that SMC's emphasis paradoxically promotes the very sine it appears to condemn and in reality leads to total self-absorbtion. The late Tim Keller's book on Self-forgetfullness is a healthy antidote, as the Petitor suggests.