Hi
welcome to the forum Liz.
It’s good to hear from you.
For what it’s worth I never thought Alistair took you out the Church …I did think it was issues with the Church itself. I know others may have thought Alistair had taken you away but I respected both you and Alistair equally and seen it as a joint decision. At the present I’m not giving away my identity for a reason but you do know me. We weren’t close friends as such but we did meet up at certain times of the week with others!! :) You were always exceptionally kind and gracious and I never felt I was being spiritually judged by you which was a rare thing in SMC by those who were used in any ministry.
It’s funny you mention the dress code and the make-up. Before coming into SMC I did wear make-up, did get my hair tinted, did wear clothes that were more fashionable….don’t get me wrong I wasn’t a fashionista …but overall I did like to occasionally try and look decent. I remember looking at photographs of myself a petite size 8/10 with make-up and dressed ‘fashionably’ (not lewdly) and actually feeling ashamed that I had been so worldly…the photographs were ripped up and put in the bin! I don’t have any photographs from teenage/early 20’s pre-SMC.
about a year after coming into SMC I was unrecognisable to family and those who had known me, having put on about 3 stone in weight and dressed As you said in ‘dowdy’ clothes. I remember going to meet someone (friend of family) and they were shocked at how I looked, actually turning to a family member and loudly stating repeatedly ‘look how fat she is…that can’t be ……….’
The same thing happened many times in the street in meeting other people who had known me. My family felt I had radically changed. I was so focused on ‘death to self’ at times I lost my sense of self and maybe comfort eating was one way to help relieve some of the pain…and as blackwatch mentioned overeating was accepted in SMC.
Like yourself I do believe that there are some in SMC who are genuine, who are compassionate and who are kind. But I also believe that they are trying to serve God in an environment that is unbiblical and a system that works to take away the autonomy of the individual. Mary from the platform spoke on more than one occasion about having to break to her will or you would never get on the platform ..on one of these occasions this was referenced to the young men in the congregation. Has SMC genuinely changed…..I can only judge that by listening to the preaching of the present overall leader, Diana. A sermon she gave a few months ago showed me that there haven’t been any fundamental or core changes in the way that they minister. The autonomy of the individual is still being taken away re-spiritual life. It’s through them or you won’t go into the depths of God.
But again time will tell if I’m wrong in this.
I’m really glad you and Alistair got out of the Church with your family at the time you did and hope all your children are happy and healthy living productive lives.
Sorry for long note…just brings back lots of memories!

Hi Liz
Thank you for sharing your story. I totally agree that the singing was outstanding and heartfelt and not something commonly experienced elsewhere. You also make the valid point that deep spiritual experiences were had in SMC . That in part certainly made my exit decision very difficult.

You mention so many issues which will be familiar to women of our age who were around at the same time. No make-up, dress code etc. Looking back at my time at uni I must have looked a right twit - trousers were a no go so there I was in skirts and heels for years. My parents also commented on how dowdy I looked but I took that as a compliment and testament to the whole death to self mentality.

Your example of the panic attack and the inability to challenge the later decision lest it be seen as pride made sad reading. It took huge courage on your part to be prepared to do another solo and the choir master was quite right to have encouraged this. For it to be overturned without the courtesy of warning or explanation was disappointing.

The whole death to self concept is a huge topic in its own right and as a psychologist I now have very strong views on how damaging this can be especially to the developing psyche. In some cases rather than promoting a means to enhance spirituality, I believe death to self can result in what is known as “mental defeat”. This is a term used to describe a state of mind when someone feels powerless, hopeless, loses a sense of identity/self-worth , and autonomy etc. It can be associated with the development of a range of mental health issues eg depression, anxiety and PTSD.

I’m glad you found a way to leave and did so with no regrets. It’s always interesting when momentous decisions get made in an instant. Shutting the door on so many relationships and having invested so much in terms of time and resources is never easy but when you know the time is right, you know.

Some fantastic ongoing dialogue which makes for fascinating reading!

I've previously stated that the success of SMC relies heavily on good, decent people submitting themselves to the twisted will of power-hungry, broken individuals. That is genuinely the people I feel sorry for. I wish for their deliverance and swift transition to a more meaningful and fulfilled life. (Quick aside, I remember on one occasion remarking that so-and-so was a good 'man' and was heavily and immediately rebuked and swiftly reminded that only Jesus was 'good').

I need to be unequivocal here, and I appreciate this contradicts how others feel, but I cannot attribute the SMC experience in any way as a deep spiritual one given the manipulation, trauma, abuse and deep-seated control. For me, the two simply cannot co-exist. There may have been the appearance of such a thing, a mirage if you will, but on reflection, it's empty and vacuous and borne out of smoke, mirrors and lies.

Take for example the SMC 'prayer voice'. No one speaks like this. It's an unnecessary adornment, a piece of theatre, an entirely man-made construct which may somehow fool the mind that we're being 'all spiritual'. It's a nonsense in my opinion. And yes, I realise I many be criticising those who are earnest but it's copy-cat, childish behavior with no grounding in anything of value. It's also fairly hilarious when you think about it.

I can fully appreciate the sentiment and the graciousness shown to those who are indeed trying to pick up the pieces. For me, again, quite unequivocally, I cannot share, at any level, the desire that SMC continues with any reflection whatsoever of its former self. To that end, my hope is that the movement continues to fizzle out and ultimately, dies. There is simply too much wrong-doing, extreme negative impact and horrible-history for me to be convinced otherwise.

I remember as a young person throwing out bags of clothes after a sermon on " vanity " and " death to self " .

On my wedding day ... I wore no make-up ... didn't get my hair done ... wore the first dress I tried on . We had plastic flowers ... no reception ...no first dance .... no alcohol " obviously " . 19 people . My lovely bridesmaid had a " hired " dress .

Had to be given " the agreed nod " before we could announce our " wedding " by Miss T .
Totally controlled by others ..

Thankfully we survived to tell the tales ...

Didn't ever really get the chance to genuinely " get to know people " .


I doubt that they have changed their ways .

Lintar -

That's sad. I'm sorry you had those things taken away from you.

Nowadays my advice to anyone that will listen is this:

Do not for one minute allow anyone else to tell you how to live your life. Trust me, they are not qualified and they have no right. Do not empower them. Anyone claiming to know the "will of god for your life" is a fraudster and a charlatan.

Miss T's bizarre power and influence existed only because of the empowerment made possible by those round about her in SMC. Outside of that sphere, she was a nobody (without trying to sound unduly unkind). It was quite something to see her in real-life and to witness people, unconnected with SMC interact with her as a normal person - quite weird and jarring to balance the 2, especially if you ever saw someone taking the 'micky'. Shock! Horror! Can you imagine?!

Hi everyone,

I have read this forum with interest for years.

Bit of background, I attended Cedars School in the early days (Larkfield) and attended some services etc at the church on and off for a few years. I was never a member or regular and therefore cannot speak any of the more sinister aspects of the church. However it is abundantly clear that its practices and pastoral care have had a lasting damaging impact on many lives, and I offer my sincere sympathy for affected.

Reading the forum, some themes are clear that I can speak to, namely their view of other churches. I don’t come from a particularly religious family, however, we are what you might call ‘tradional west coast Church of Scotland’ ie Sunday mornings was church and Sunday School, attended BB etc. I do remember, even as a young teenager other pupils in the school ‘putting’ down my church, claiming it wasn’t really Christian etc. I didn’t give it much thought at the time but looking back, it’s a very odd thing to say in the playground. I suppose it speaks to the indoctrination.

This might not be the right place, but I have a request if anyone is able to share any light.

When I was at the school (and other events) I remember the name Miss Taylor being mentioned, mostly people claiming to have had her approval, or she had spoken to them. She must have died some time before this, as I attended the school when Mr Black died.

What I would like to know is background, who was she, what was the background to her and the church, why was she so revered. Basically, a bit of a profile if possible. The internet has given me nothing, and for one reason or another it has piqued my curiosity.

Apologies if this is not the correct space for asking this, but the name has came up a few times recently and I’m hoping that someone can share some light.

Hello WestofEast - welcome back - you are an example of who knows how many people who are followers of this forum, and have been doing so for a very long time.

And WestofEast, a barrel load about to appear! You did ask.

In terms of reading history from the forum, good pages to read are back on p44, p63, p101 Cbarb and Chesterk55, then Wistongirl. AlDuff and Blackwatch have some posts also giving their insights at p167 & p168. GirlWiston just above writes about a letter she received from her age 10. Rather than repeat, those 5 pages are worth going back to.

Biographically, leaving all emotion out of it for now, I can add that she was small, wore glasses, always an old fashioned formal hat (we all wore berets or fabric squares folded into triangle headcoverings), did not have a particularly loud voice. I have a memory of her working in a Glaziers as a secretary? I also think I have a memory of her having a sister. She never spoke of life at work, of her sister. The only background story was something about George Jeffreys coming to Greenock, Cruden Hall (above The Exchange, Ricos if you're old like me now), and her mum (?) taking her there and it being a very powerful, influential experience on her. (George Jeffreys started Elim UK). Unlike HB, she showed no interested in money or comfort. She lived in a council flat in Greenock, possibly bought it in the 1980s under Mrs T's right to buy. When she had a stroke, GG and her sister AB became her full-time carers. Perhaps explains a thing or two about GG and her approach to leadership, if you can call it that.
If you have contact with grandchildren of other "old" pentecostal families from the 2 Elims and Assemblies of God in Greenock, their grandparents will have known her. They will also know the history of the split from Elim to Struthers. (Hint hint, Elim and AOG families, come on and add to the story please ...)

Now for the subjective emotional part.

I have a journal which I dig out at my reflective periods in a year, ie I am an intermittent journaller. Seeing your question, I went back to my journal as I knew I was bound to have entries relating to Miss T. My first entry relating to Miss T is, "Emotional Bullying & guilt control from church leadership - "Miss Taylor" (and this is before I knew the Forum existed, so not prompted)
For me, and many of my peers (70s 80s), as a child, first gaining awareness of adults, through to being a teenager, she was terrifying off the scale. Bullying, mysterious, could see into you somehow.

A book I read to try understand my childhood environment is PARENTS WHO BULLY by Eric Maisel. Again in my journal I have written, "This excerpt is SO SMC. Between the 9 characteristics of the authoriatrian personality and the description of authoritarian partenting style ... this is SMC down to a T. Miss Taylor, followed by MB, GG, DR, AS."

Quote

Authoritarian Personality Theodor Adorno and his colleagues at UC Berkeley, in the 1950s coined the phrase “the authoritarian personality.” These thinkers believed that they had identified nine characteristics of the authoritarian personality (or, more precisely, nine characteristics of the authoritarian follower):

1. Conventionalism: rigid adherence to conventional middle-class values.
2. Authoritarian submission: uncritical acceptance of authority.
3. Authoritarian aggression: a tendency to condemn anyone who violated conventional norms.
4. Anti-intraception: a rejection of weakness or sentimentality.
5. Superstition and stereotypy: belief in mystical determinants of action, and a tendency to rigid, categorical thinking.
6. Power and toughness: preoccupation with dominance over others.
7. Destructiveness and cynicism: a generalized feeling of hostility and anger.
8. Projectivity: a tendency to project inner emotions and impulses outward.
9. Sex: exaggerated concern for proper sexual conduct

In the 1960s, developmental psychologist Diana Baumrind, reporting on her research with preschool-age children, described three parenting styles, one of which came to be known as the authoritarian parenting style. She described this
[*] strict rules,
[*] a refusal to explain the rules,
[*] the demand that these rules be followed unconditionally, and
[*] harsh punishment if they weren’t followed.

This was Miss T and then Miss B (MB) down to a T. This was the environment a swathe of us grew up in. This was the parenting model that was the go to. Parents initially, or still, believing in her being the "Lord's Annointed", almost whispering to us that we could not speak bad things about her.

Quote

Authoritarians often look good in the world, even very good. They can be charming in public and expert at reserving their authoritarian wounding for family members. This conscious, calculated duplicity is a feature of an authoritarian’s cynical desire to get what he or she wants—primarily the ability to inflict punishment—without experiencing negative consequences.

What appears to be at the heart of the authoritarian personality ... is a deep reservoir of hatred and a ferocious need to punish. ... How could a child possibly make sense of this caustic reality, of how her mother or her father is so vicious and unloving?

Doesn't that quote also sum up leadership that followed Miss T?

Ch3 of the same book has 3x12 sets of characteristics of a bully - falling into categories of Aggression, Exploitation and Narcissim. Of the 36 characteristics listed, I have put Miss T's name against 32 of them. ie I counted how many did not have her name, of which there were only 4. I could go on and on with quotes from the book that sum up what Miss T was like, and therefore what the scary environment was like from a child and teenager's perspective.

Quote

p72
"Basically, my childhood was miserable. I was expected to anticipate and meet everyone’s needs. I was not allowed any needs of my own. If I formed relationships outside the home, they were squashed. Throughout my childhood, I worked all the time and was pretty much a prisoner. I believe that one objective of authoritarians is to get you to shut down so that they can take you over. Thinking for myself and trying to understand my situation helped me a little, but only a very little"

Isn't that very similar to what Liz Duff wrote just the page before this?
(Welcome Liz, you were kind and gentle and thoughtful. We teenagers saw everything. And Al, you were good to us older "rebellious" teenagers, you would talk with us as normal people, not judged)

The early posts at p44, p63, p101 write that life in the Greenock church changed around 1980. What I remember is that Miss T went from being the piano accompanist and preacher, to being the worship leader and Sat night preacher. She wanted to play around with the timing of choruses - fast, slow, whatever best suited the creation of an emotional atmosphere. Now she could "stare" at you for 45 mins or an hour. Supposedly staring into you soul. I remember her humiliating her successor pianist, himself a leader and trustee of the church at the time, on at least one Sat night in the wee upper hall on Jamaica Lane. Hall would be totally crammed packed full with folk on benches, the Falkirk crowd and the Glasgow uni/college students. The pianist was not playing the choruses the way she wanted them played. She kept stopping the congregational singing, getting more and more irate, "No, not fast enough", then "No too fast", then "Oh Paul Sharkey, you come up, you play instead." (young student, up and coming leader). Cruel, unnecessary bad temper. Sheer emotional bullying from the front. Every week.

It was such a HUGE emotional relief for me as a teenager when she became housebound. And equally it became totally terrifying again when she would occasionally appear and speak. GirlWiston refers to a chosen group of 6 in Greenock on a Sunday night that Miss T had ministry sessions with. I knew some of the 6 at the time. At least one of them was terrified. Coerced. Crowded into the tiny upstairs kitchen right at the back door at Jamaica Lane. Some of the 6 have documented mental health conditions.

Fruit of the spirit?

Greetings to All,

Reading recent posts I just feel so much sadness :-(

I was reading some earlier posts and was particularly upset reading Rainbow's post on their "exorcism" being pushed to the floor - this is just traumatic and would scar someone for life (re: suggestion of PTSD in earlier post by RedRoad) - I hope you are ok today Rainbow and that you have been able to talk this out in confidence with a professional.

Keeping on this "exorcism" topic: this only came on the scene in the 80's - before that, if this happened, it wasin private away from the congregation - perhaps in the "blue room". At camps the ferver sometimes got to fever pitch with exorcisms among the congregation (with children present) and on one occasion my neighbour & I looked at each other, got up and walked out - it was just too much. There was so much emphasis on the "spectacular" and not on the day-to-day christian values and living. I also had a thought today that, if this was the way the new upcoming leaders were seeing what the church was like (exorcisms and such) then they would consider that normal and continue in the same vein - just a thought.

WestofEast - welcome. With regards to your question on Elizabeth Taylor I will try to add a little (if I may) to RedRoad's already spot on analysis. I was in SMC from 1965-1989 (so more like your mum's age :-) As I have learned, Hugh Black, Elizabeth Taylor, Maurice Offord & Robert Cleary were the original 4 leaders at the beginning of the SMC Church. I think they all met in various Elim church services in the area, like Greenock & Glasgow and they left to create their own movement. When I was a child we never were aware of Elizabeth Taylor at all, apart from the fact that she played the organ on a Sunday night. Mr Black preached always from the top pulpit in Greenock in a very loud voice - mostly hellfire-type preaching which I guess was the fashion at the time. Miss Taylor as I said on the organ and for the choir it was Mr. Offord on the organ and Mr. Cleary who led the choir. What a cheery chap he was - a breath of fresh air and Mr. Offord was a very godly man.

Miss Taylor would come to church & I think lived in Greenock with her sister (not her mum I don't think RedRoad - not 100% sure) and until the 1980's things were honestly quite "normal" as far as I remember (but normal for me WAS SMC as I was born into it so perhaps not a reference right enough). THEN, all things changed and for me that's when they went "off the rails". Miss Taylor came to the forefront, took services, preached, took poor Mr. Offord off the organ & piano and Mr Cleary, bless his humble heart, paled into the background. Mr Black still remaine the "leader" with big emphasis on Miss Taylor and her spirituality. Until then, Mary Black was up in her church in Glasgow and not in the forefront in the main church in Greenock. The singing became a chore, choir practise was a series of "tellings off". She either liked you or she didn't and there were no grey areas. Miss Taylor, who before this never came to church camps, started to come to the August camps and the meetings became so LONG and laborious. I was lucky in that she liked me, but it was also a two-edged sword. Blackwatch- your comment on how the congregation "enabled" this adoration is spot on. So hope this helps with the "way back" background and @ALL - open to correction of course as my memory may not be correct in all points.

Blackwatch you are spot on with your comments on my parents :-) and thanks for the kind words - they loved the Baptist Church in Gourock and absolutely bloomed in Westray. My Dad was indeed a joiner to trade for 4 years and this was of course very useful for building churches.

Mulberry thanks also for your welcome and somehow we must know each other then as bible class was small - do you remember it was at the back of the big church downstairs - it was soooo cold! I sent you a PM but totally understand if you wish to remain anonymous - totally ok?

Liz Duff I was just so sad when I read your post. We must know each other and I do know your name, just can't remember clearly. The effort you went to with young children, long commute and a little request which should have had christian understanding refuted brusquely - it just doesn't bear thinking about and I really hope you are in a good place now. So many people devoted their lives to SMC, only to be used for their assets. But you know, what you sow ...

Lintar You were already posting in 2013 when I was last posting and I was so sad reading your story at that time and hope you are ok today and have a happy life. Wishing you well.

Regarding Bobby Morrison, he was part of our lives growing up - he came to SMC Greenock with his wife & 2 daughters. He was a humble & godly man who was not really recognised as such. He discretely lent many books to members of the congregation in order to enrich their lives and he did a lot of good in the background (best place to be I would say ;-). A phrase he would say and which has stayed with me all my life was: "Everything comes to pass" - he said this to someone one day who was really upset and it really helped them, and has often helped me in difficult times. If any of his dear daughters read this forum - (you don't need me to tell you that) your Dad was a good man.


Big post, but so much turning around in my head since I came back on the forum. So much hurt, but the good thing is that there is a good life to be lived outside these restraining walls - it does take time and unfortunately it is up to us to make the (sometimes huge) effort to get better and recover to enjoy it.

Courage to all and have a nice weekend ahead,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2025 07:00PM by GirlWiston.

Thank you everyone for your welcome. I’ve started my own chat in case anyone wishes to private message me.
Interesting reading the newest entries.
My maiden name was Kinnaird.
GirlWiston I knew you well.

The last couple of weeks has been a trip down memory lane with all the latest postings. I remember much of what has been written and cringe to think I was at one time a part of all the nonsense.
Liz, I remember you and your brother well. I think perhaps your brother is still in SMC? I hope he’s ok.
A Theist, you have given up so many insights into who you were in Struthers, I recognise you also. I hope life has treated you well.
Girl Wiston, you gave us a bit of background about how SMC started. Like many churches, it sounds as if it was started from a church split…how sad. Your parents and whole family were lovely people.
Whatever our stories (and they are many, varied and some truly awful) we all survived, in one form or another, to tell the tale to the next generation…and any of our own generation who wish to learn from all that has been written. I hope we can say we are all better people than we were back then, having learned from our mistakes(being a member of SMC) and gone on to find true peace and happiness without all the guilt trips that so many of us spent many months and years enduring because of all the indoctrination and mental abuse we suffered. None of us walked away from our ‘high calling’ as a result of leaving SMC. We walked away from a highly abuse church which possible robbed us of the best years of our lives. Let’s hope this forum will serve to warn others as to the dangers of this cult-like organisation and that it saves them from years of confusion, hurt and pain.