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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Clive ()
Date: July 06, 2012 12:35PM

I would like to make a request/suggestion to anyone currently attending SMC in Cumbernauld, who is generally happy with attending there but maybe be starting to have slight
doubts as to whether Pastor Diana’s public discernments and predictions etc are “of the lord” and wholesome.

I’m not asking you to leave, i’m not even asking you to post anything here. At least not yet.

Instead iI suggest that from now on, just listen carefully to Pastor Diana and make a mental note of every public “discernment" that she makes and who it was for.
Also note every prediction and prophecy. Then write this down asap when you get home.

And if you like, write down any comments she makes that seem to be defending her stance on any criticisms being made against SMC. How does she defend herself ? . Does she warn against anyone daring to “check her out” ?. Record any statements she makes that could be seen as threats or a warning of divine retribution if anyone dares to “cross” her, or doubt her authority or ministry.

Do this for - say six months. Then go back to the notebook and iif possible, discreetly and tactfully try and find out whether any of the discernments still have any substance. Also find out whether her predictions came true in any way. Of course this ould be hard if the predictions/prophesies are voiced in general ambiguous terms, but do your best.

Remember that the Bible says that the Lord is not to be tested. But there s nothing against testing any human and their claims to be connected to the divine in some privileged way.

So - basically - just keep notes. Nothing more. Discreetly of course.

And if- after keeping such notes you feel the results compel you to post here then please do so. Of course this might be to confirm that - yes - she basically gets it right all or most of the time. She is indeed a discerning prophet who has gods x-ray vision into mens hearts.

On the other hand of course it could reveal something quite different.

So - alll you SMC “lurkers” out there - get out your notebooks and start recording.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2012 12:48PM by Clive.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: July 06, 2012 06:52PM

Hi Clive

I think that's an excellent idea. It's so easy to forget specifics of a sermon if you're not the one it's being directed at and certainly writing these things down would give people a solid base to work from.

I for one do not believe that any of the leaders have any special gifts like this, I believe that they gleen all their information from the clipes and cliques in the church and then put it across as divine knowledge. It's more like a charlattan medium laying out the Tarot cards and then making up some ambiguous story that, if you're gullible enough, you can say 'Oh yes, she was right about that so she must be genuine'

I do believe that God can give people insights to tool them up to HELP someone but I don't believe for one minute that God wants to humiliate and castigate people publically for some 'perceived' sin. The true pastor would take that information and minister in private to the person involved and encourage and help them to overcome what ever it is that's fouling up their lives. I can't help thinking how many catholics would attend confessions if the priest was going to announce their sins to the church the following Sunday?

The only public humiliation should be that of the leaders themselves because, as shepherds, they are more accountable to God for their flock and he will call them to answer for their actions, in his own time.

You ask about Joan Jewell as well. She took over the Port Glasgow church from my uncle (who took over after my Mum and Dad moved South and began attending a different church). Unfortunately I can't say much about her ministry because I have only ever heard her give testimony before but back in the day, she was a lovely person, as were her two sisters (although I don't think either of them attend the church now but I may be wrong about that). However, if she is still remaining on the pulpit in SMC then it stands to reason that she holds the same views as the other leaders or she would have been drummed out by now and she certainly wouldn't have been involved in the school either. Her mother-in-law was one of the stalwart people who used to attend the church and she did all the cooking for the church camps and worked tirelessly to help the younger people in the church and we all called her 'Ma Jewell' because you could talk to her about anything and she would keep your confidences and give you some very sound advice. She was a woman who shot from the hip and gave you it straight, she was fair but firm and most definitely, in my view, a godly person. She was a massive influence on my life and saved me from utter self-destruction with her words of encouragement and support. She moved eventually to the same church as my mum and dad down South and continued to be a supportive and wonderful person until she recently died and we miss her a lot. I did hear her, once or twice, remark to my Mum that Joan was 'slipping into the Struthers mould' and she was quite sad for her grandchildren. To be fair, the Jewells have seen a lot of hardship and tradgedy over the years and the fact that they kept any faith at all is to be admired, even if the faith is a bit twisted where Joan is concerned, but she too has been brainwashed from an early age like the rest of us.

As far as I can tell all the REAL people who were in SMC when I was younger have now left the church, those I spoke of before who built the PG church with their own hands and in their own spare time. All of those people have left the church and the most influential ones who tried to 'keep it real' are no longer there to keep the leaders' feet on the ground and bring them back to reality. I believe strongly that pride and self-importance have overtaken the leaders of the church and there is no longer anyone there to bring them back to the place of humility which God insists we should be in. It seems to me that the leaders of the church have lost touch with what being humble and thankful to God is all about and instead believe themselves to be 'chosen ones'. In my experience 'chosen ones' are known by their actions and strength in their humility before God and not by the fact that they regularly tell everyone how godly and wonderful they are! The leaders are so incensed by their own self-importance that they can't move aside to let God take his rightful place in the church but it does make you wonder when you see that the majority (if not all) of the current leaders are also school teachers who are used to controlling classrooms of rowdy kids.?

I do hope that we will see some posts from present members, perhaps if they take your advice Clive, we might but I wouldn't hold your breath for that one.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Clive ()
Date: July 06, 2012 09:25PM

Quote
cbarb
Hi Clive

I do hope that we will see some posts from present members, perhaps if they take your advice Clive, we might but I wouldn't hold your breath for that one.

You’re probably right, but i would say to any SMC’ers out there, just do it anyway. Keep notes for yourself. And then after 6 or 12 months take a good long hard
look at that notebook. And above all, be honest with yourself. Don't be cowed into thinking what you’re doing is disloyal. There are higher priorities at stake
here than loyalty to a leader. Don’t feel compelled to post anything here if that makes you uncomfortable. Just do it for yourself.

Thanks Cbarb for the info on the Mrs Jewell. My very limited contact with Derek Jewell seemed to suggest that he was a very warm, gentle and humble man, but
maybe slightly overpowered ( even overruled ? ) by his wife. Very much in the mould of women having all the authority in that church. Dunno whatever happened to
the biblical idea of the man being the “head” of the household, but then I gather from other posts here that it is taught in SMC that men are less “spiritual” or something
than womenfolk. There may be something to that I suppose. Demographically women tend to attend churches more than men. But I do wonder if they're also
less likely to use their sceptical faculties. Having and applying healthy scepticism is something everyone should try to adopt - whether a believer or not. And one could argue that it is a
lack - or even discouragement of such scepticism that has gotten this church to where it is now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2012 09:26PM by Clive.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: July 06, 2012 10:51PM

Hi Clive

Yes Derek was a lovely man and sadly died far too young. I'm not sure about their married life but I do know that Ma Jewell and Joan didn't see eye to eye on many things. Ma Jewell was very vocal and strong when she disagreed with teachings from the pastors and she was usually right and people, including the leaders at the time, respected her for that so it speaks volumes that Ma eventually left the church herself.

You may be right about the man v. woman thing although I have to admit that I don't think there is anything wrong with women in ministry, if they are indeed humble and godly people. These days women are more active in every area of life than they were back in the dark ages and there are probably almost as many families where dad stays at home and mum works, as there are the other way round. I feel, personally that the problems with SMC stem from the profession of the women leaders rather than from their sex. These women are used to controlling people because they have to control classrooms of kids and I think that is what's spilling over into their style of ministry and their 'I'm right and you're wrong' attitudes. Aside from the fact that they all seem to have a God-complex and make themselves out to something more than merely human.

I do hope that the present SMC congregation members will take your advice and start taking some notes, even if it's just for their own personal use and not for public consumption. I think it would probably be a big eye opener to many if they are totally honest with themselves and really research what the leaders are telling them. There's nothing wrong with questioning any human on any subject including the word of God, as you have pointed out before, it is actually a very healthy attitude to take and one that no one should ever feel guilty about.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: July 06, 2012 11:40PM

Sorry,

I did mean to mention in my last post that when I attended SMC, apart from Miss Taylor, all the pastors were men and the teaching was pretty much the same then as it is now.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from with my feelings about the women who are now pastors in SMC. :-)

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Calvary ()
Date: July 07, 2012 07:35AM

Quote
Rensil
when I wrote about DR's discernment and the accuracy of it compared to that of the other leaders, I wasnt meaning that I thought it was ok and that I believed her discernment was always accurate and from God.

Pointing out people in a public gathering and speaking about their sin and need of deliverance, which has been discerned by a leader, is very upsetting for people. In most other churches where discernment and revelation gifts are in operation, the person in need will be taken quietly aside and counselled and ministered to in private.

Sorry Rensil, I did realise that in no way were you endorsing the view that DR had wonderfully accurate discernment at all times. I should have made that clearer in my post.

In regard to the public exposure of people and their sins, I believe Mr Black would have agreed with your point 100%. In my opinion, Mr Black was not against "words of knowledge" being used in meetings, as long as people weren't specifically identified. He was happy to see God move and people challenged to total committment. However, I think he was conscious of the dignity of the individual and the possible accusation of bullying. This area - that of identifying specific people - was one of the reservations he had about the ministry of Pastor Di. How do I know that? Well she admitted it in her preaching on at least one occasion saying and I roughly quote "Mr Black doesn't like it when I identify people in the company when I'm talking about specific issues".

As I wrote before, I believe Mr Black had real reservations over her ministry style and while he was around her platform speaking at conferences was VERY limited. I remember on one occasion she was asked to speak at a morning meeting and she was very impressive. Many people started going on about how wonderful she was - particularly the Cumbernauld people! So what did Mr Black do? During the evening meeting he spoke about the morning meeting and basically (in a very gracious way) told the people not to be concerned with the channel that God was using, it was not all about DR, but the focus must always be on God. He finished by admitting it had been a lovely occasion and that she would get a chance to speak again at the next camp. In my view, although he respected and endorsed her gifting, he didn't always like the way she did things and I think, often had words with her about it. (My view on this was formed with limited, but I believe compelling, source material - if I am proved to be wrong in this assessment I do apologise). Does anyone else have any insight on this?

What is the point of sharing this, anyway? Well, if the behaviour of one, or more, of the struthers leaders which was previously being kept in check, continues to get worse it is the people in struthers who will suffer and the church becomes even more "cult-like".

I was shocked at the post from Religionless about the wedding she attended, because one of the things struthers always used to be concerned about was their public perception. Mr Black was very conscious of the need to APPEAR reasonably "mainstream" - they always put on a good show for outsiders. Everyone was meant to think they were the perfect church - friendly, kind, caring and deeply spiritual - everything a good church should be. I think that to have had this kind of outburst at a public wedding would have been a step to far for leaders of a previous generation (as cbarb suggested). This tells me two things about the Cumbernauld leader: 1st - she is not being properly supervised; and 2nd - she cares more about her own agenda than the good of the so-called "movement".


Clive,

I think your idea about note taking is a good one, and I hope some people in struthers start to do it. I think the problem will be that the prophetic words given are mostly generalisations, but hopefully if people pick out the specifics and then look back...

One previous prophetic word I would like to bring to the attention of everyone now attending the Cumbernauld church is the "10 Cities Prophecy" If you started attending struthers Cumbernauld before the mid-1990s you'll know what I'm talking about....

For everyone else... DR got up one Sunday night in the mid to late 1990's (sorry I don't recall the date or even the exact year) and excitedly preached this word that God had given her. She (yes DR!!) was going to be put in charge of ten cities. God had given her the Word (from Luke 19:17). I remember she was upset that people weren't getting more excited... this was AMAZING!!... God was raising her up over an entire region - the whole of lanarkshire, so it seemed. Of course it wasn't 10 literal cities, it was some towns and possibly some large villages accross the area. Well, we are now in 2012, and while there was no date put on this 'revelation' you would surely expect to see some sign of it coming to fruition by now. As I understand it two of these "cities" were to be Wishaw and Hamilton (struthers at one point had outreach meetings in both), at the time of my last contact with people in Cumbernauld there was NO ONE regularly coming to struthers in Cumbernauld from either Wishaw or Hamilton. As for some of the other places like Motherwell, I think there was 3 or 4 people attending. DR is still not known by 99.9% of people in lanarkshire and is most certainly not the spiritual leader of the region!

If you go to Struthers Cumbernauld... I have some questions... what do you think of the failure of this prophecy to come to pass? Are you still holding onto it for some point in the future? Is it one of the promises of God you are still praying through? Has it not come to pass so far because of a failure of the members to pray enough, or people like me who have been disloyal? How do you rationalise it? Is she a false prophet or isn't she?

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: July 08, 2012 01:17AM

Hi Calvary

I think you're right about Mr.Black's view of 'words of knowledge' and unfortuately, since his death, there is no-one left to supervise the way in which the current pastors use these 'words of knowledge'.

I'm reminded that good orators can incite crowds to riot and strange behaviours outside the church as well as inside. We only have to look at certain so called religious leaders who can incite young people to sacrifice their lives and those of the innocent, in the name of God.

I believe that, when dealing with people who claim to be visionaries, we must ALWAYS test those claims and question them. I know that there is no one in SMC who would agree with killing innocent people in the name of God but it happens because their leaders can 'talk a good game'. Politicians win elections by 'talking a good game' but seldom deliver on their promises.

The current congregation of SMC should view pastor Rutherford's claims as questionable and should be extrememly careful about believing something just because they are told it is the truth. In my view she is obviously an extremely good orator but that doesn't mean her claims are true and great care must be taken when being told to believe something blindly and with no questions. We have already read postings here by people who have been badly hurt by her lies about them from the pulpit and, in my view, if she is capable of lying about why some people no longer attend SMC then first and foremost she is NOT a godly person ("Thou shalt not lie") and secondly her quite evident self-agrandizing attitude has absolutely no back-up in the Bible (quite the opposite since pride is seen to be a sin in God's eyes).

The '10 cities' episode you mentioned did give me a bit of a hoot and I wonder why the congregation didn't get up and leave en-masse. This woman is a dreamer and is making her dreams out to be a revelation from God. I too have had lucid dreams about being in a certain place at a certain time and occassionally the incident has happened but these are dreams that we're all capable of having, the french call it deja vue (seen before). We are all essentially spirit when you remove the body which means that from time to time we may experience premonitions which later turn out to be true but that doesn't make us prophets, it's just part of the human phyche that allows our sub-concious minds to occassionally witness an event or a conversation or similar and it's a perfectly normal part of being a human being. For the most part these types of dreams don't actually come true and have no bearing what so ever on our walk with God.

I believe that when God gives someone a true revelation it will be for HIS glory and not for the glory of the orator and the very fact that Pastor Rutherford was saying that SHE would be lifted up over the '10 cities' puts her in the category of a dreamer but certainly does not put her in the category of being godly or a prophetess. She is a complete sham and charlattan by all the accounts I have read here and the current congregation need to be very VERY careful about what they choose to believe about this woman. Test her words, keep notes, ask questions, read what the bible has to say about true revelations and false prophets. ALL biblical prophets and prophetesses, whithout exception, gave God the full glory and remained humble and in subservience to Him and not to themselves.

As Clive has already pointed out, the woman needs to be approached with great caution and questions need to be asked. If questions are asked and not answered in a sufficient way this raises doubts and, where there are doubts, the questioner needs to research for themselves just how much of what this woman says is completely right and not just ambiguous statements. I for one would love to hear if any of what she has said from the pulpit is actually true, has she made true statements about members of the congregation which have not been heresay from one of her 'inner circle'. Remember, even if you tell someone something in confidence that person will not always keep your confidence. So, if you have been affected by her so called 'discernment' during a sermon then ask yourself, who in the church have I already spoken to about this?

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: lintar123 ()
Date: July 08, 2012 02:18AM

dear Cbarb, I am more than aware that there are many genuine people seeking God and faithful to Him in Struthers. My husband and I were two of them.

Our problem was with the interference/ bullying/ and control of the leaders. DR in particular and also MB Please read my earlier posts.
Re women being teachers. I can speak from thirty one years teaching experience. A good teacher does not bully nor control nor brainwash. Not ever! A good teacher allows the learner to develop at his/her own pace and is always there to support and encourage and celebrates difference! DR, and current leaders are not good teachers. Teaching may be their profession...many work in Cedars. I fear for their pupils. Just like I fear for their congregation. Please read my earlier posts about the Cedars school.

We were "bullied" and "brain-washed" until we started to question and wonder. Personally, I was ridiculed and wrong accusations were made about and against me by DR. I know that sermons were preached about me when I left...Jezabel??? backslider?? I was told by her that my husband would leave me before he left the church?? The ironic thing is that my dear husband left before me. Thankfully we are together and happy after 26 years of marriage. We didn`t have the wedding that we would have had , though... thanks to listening to our esteemed leaders of the 80s and believing all that they said .
Still I hurt. Still I pray that others will never go through what we went through as a young couple.Still I STRUGGLE to comprehend how and why these people get away with what they are saying and doing. I live in hope that people will take Clive`s advice and respond honestly.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: July 08, 2012 04:22AM

Hi Lintar123

Yes, you are right, the leaders are not good teachers. My Mum was also a school teacher before she retired and never once resorted to bullying tactics. However, if the leaders of SMC are bullying in their attitudes towards their congregation then it stands to reason that they will be the same in the classroom and it is right to fear for the kids they are currently teaching.

I'm so glad for you that you have gotten out of their clutches with your marriage intact - a testament to the love you have for each other and your real faith in God. God never abandons his children and you should not worry what is said about you in SMC because God knows the truth and if the current congregation believe the lies and half-truths told from the pulpit then more fool them, they are to be pitied for their lack of free will and their seeming inability to seperate the codswallop from the true word of God, as written in the Bible. SMC have very skewed ideas of what the Bible actually teaches and, in some cases, even seem to make up their own versions of what God is saying.

Don't let the lies affect you, you know you have done the right thing by getting away from SMC and God will give you strength to rise above it all. Eventually the leaders of the church will be called to answer for their actions and either the church will be reclaimed by Him or it will be destroyed. All we can do is pray for those who are still in the clutches of SMC that they will look heavenward instead of to the pulpit for their guidance. The leaders are not good leaders and they are not good teachers either.

I'm sorry if you felt I was slighting the profession, that was un-intended (my Mum would have a hairy fit if she thought that's what I meant) I was really just drawing the conclusion that the leaders were control freaks and are obviously used to controlling pupils in school as well. We've all met these kinds of teachers in school ourselves (the ones who were very liberal with the belt before it got banned) but we've also met the good teachers like yourself and my mother who care enough about the kids to really teach rather than just control. Unfortunately the leaders of SMC seem to fall into the latter category. The reason they get away with it is the 'no questions asked' teaching and the insistence on cutting yourself off from any and every outside influence (even other family members!). Up until forums like this one appeared on the web no one outside of the church has known what's been going on but I think a change is coming now that more people are actively asking questions and looking for answers.

There are still many people who have left the church and are unaware of the debate going on here and the very astute picking apart of some published sermons on the Latigo site but I'm shouting it from the roof-tops to the people who used to attend when I was there. Many of us have beating ourselves up for years believing that we were doomed because we had left the 'one true' church and the peace of mind body and soul that this site has brought us is like throwing the world off your shoulders and just trusting that God loves you no matter who you are, where you come from or what religion you follow. We all pray every day that God will open the eyes of the remaining congregation and set them free.

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Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Clive ()
Date: July 09, 2012 12:53AM

Hi lintar, Calvary cbarb and gang

Regarding our talk concerning spiritual experiences and pracices, I was thinking about what you said here:

Quote
lintar123

I believe that people can make themselves feel anything if they put their mind to it .Mind over matter, all human beings have probably experienced well-being and a sense of pleasure especially if they practice quiet meditation. Very often in Cumbernauld if you were seen to "resist" a "feeling" or not be demonstrative in your response i.e. pray louder in the tongues! or jump up and down! -you were deemed to be "working against God " or "not responsive". Many times I sat in meetings and witnessed hype!! I saw and heard the frantic mutterings of people worked up to a frenzy and I watched DR.... claim that God was moving. I saw her scare young children and older people into frenzied states under the guise that God was moving on them and through them. Now I know it was never the case. It was Diana Rutherford moving and working others up with her. It is dangerous. Making people imagine things or worse making people feel that they were bad and hardened to God, because they felt nothing, is and was cruel.

I came across an interview with an anthropologist and ethnologist Tanya Luhrmann who has spent many years living - almost “embedded” amongst various religious groups to research religious experiences and how people interpret and obtain them.

She recently wrote a book and talks about her experiences here with charismatics in the Vineard church. What is noticeable is how - regardless what one thinks of the nature and meaning of the experiences and techniques she learns form these church members - what is apparent is the noticeable difference between the “Vinyeard” approach and the way that SMC does things.

I would strongly recommend people listen to this. And i’m almost inclined to suggest to current SMC members that maybe they seek out their nearest Vineard Church. Of course there key be issues with some leaderships in that movement too. But from the interview i’d say its a lot less problematic than what we are hearing here.

listen here:

[soundcloud.com]

( let me know if you have any problems, its possible you may have to sign up with the site in order to hear the interview but in any case its free )

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