oh no Clive, how do I get my money back!?!...;)....am aware there are techniques it's all a bit unfortunate to say the least. Somehow though, I managed to enjoy, for what it was, the content of some of the old hymns sung at Struthers. That was all really.

Yes blackwatch, be careful whether it's passing SMC stuff to Latigo or trying to help fellow members of SMC by passing on the new teaching you've found

Wow, this forum really does “wake up, have a big stretch and spring into life again" (paraphrasing Rensil) doesn’t it! I have seen new comments being posted and thought I would reply, then, by the time I get round to it, someone else has made another interesting point. I can’t keep up!

One of the things I really do love about the comments is how gracious they are. Sure there is hurt and criticism, anger even, but I do not see anyone displaying any bitterness or hate – what everyone is doing is displaying care and love. Most people are even willing to say there are good things about Struthers - and people can agree or disagree without fear. Wonderful! (And, if you have been in Struthers, really refreshing. I guess people with no contact with Struthers might be surprised that some of us find that unexpected and empowering, but perhaps that just shows what a warped place we were in.)

It is also interesting to note that a huge number of people on this forum are Christians with a positive story to tell about how God has helped them through difficulties. I am not trying to preach here or in any way suggest that should be the only story people have to tell, my point is more about how this would be welcomed in most churches. I am thinking of one in particular (a Church of Scotland) which I have visited about 6 times over the last 10 or 20 years. Every time I have been there, missionaries or other Christian workers have been returning for a visit and spoke of how they had received their own calling while in that church.

Wouldn’t it have been great if Struthers had done the same? I reckon there are at least 10 ministers out there in different denominations who started out in Struthers. There are certainly about 40 people who have on this site said they have found a place of peace with God, people who talk about love and grace. What if the leaders in Struthers welcomed these people in love rather than rejected them? They could invite one to speak each week about how they found peace and love after a time of trauma. Would that not be a good Christian witness to all? To look at it another way, what if these people are invited to give their testimony in heaven? What will the leaders of Struthers do then – shout “blasphemy” and stop their ears? Again, I am not trying to make a doctrinal point – someone will no doubt tell me there will not be testimonies in heaven – but I am trying to point out the contradictions in the Struthers position. They claim to be part of the broader church. Some people on this forum would also make that claim, and are saying God has helped them through trauma. Should the Struthers leaders not rejoice in this? The leaders might be able to ban their followers from reading these testimonies here but, according to their own set of beliefs, they will meet these same people in heaven. Bit of problem there folks!

Cbarb – thanks for commenting on my quote from Mr Black. That is exactly the point, isn’t it – the sheep in Struthers don’t know if they are allowed to agree with a statement until they know who is comes from. I have often thought of posting a new question every week with the same challenge. For example, should people take a holiday and lie on the beach to relax every year? Is that right, wrong, or only right if Mr Black said it? (Once again, happy to let people know whether this came from Mr Black or whether I made it up if they wish.)

Lintar – I really relate to your frustration and pain – I spent years struggling with many of the questions and did not particularly find that time was a great healer. I have found that your idea of “strength of character” is important however. I think that in my case, I did not particularly inherit it, but developed it though applying my belief in the importance of integrity in employment situations and even as a result of my very bad experience in Struthers. Perhaps not an easy path, but one that has given me real confidence and resilience (as well as a secure belief in God) in the long term.

On your final question, “how can that be allowed to happen?” I think part of the answer is something Mr Black used to quote quite often – for evil to abound, all it takes is good men(sic) to do nothing. I have for example seen a recent letter to Chris Jewell asking him to speak to an ex-member of Struthers. According to the online evidence, Chris is involved in a whole variety of good works in Greenock. By all accounts, he is a “good man” but he seems to be doing nothing to resolve the situation. That is the power of the leaders – even a “good man” is afraid to do what is right. There is however some safety in numbers, and it is great that so many people have now felt able to speak so freely. Thanks especially to those who first spoke up and made it easier for the rest of us.

Blackwatch – Rensil says, “You say you are not leaving because maybe God might use you there”. I agree with Rensil’s comment on this, but would also add my own – look around you. Look at the people who were in your position 30 years ago and are still in Struthers waiting for God to use them. Many of these people joined Struthers in their teens or early twenties and remained because they were told that was where God wanted them, and that God would bring revival through Struthers. Look at them now. Have they grown into confident ambassadors for Christ? Are they being used by God? Has God used them to bring revival? Are people attracted to them because of the peace, joy and love they personify? Or are they depressed and staid, lacking in confidence and ambition and considered by their peers at work and society to be a bit odd? I have not been in Struthers for years, but I think I know the answer to these questions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 03:39AM by ThePetitor.

Clive and squareone, thanks for your comments on the gluttony / obesity question.

Clive, you're right in what you say but the difference between the doctor, the murderer and the preacher is the nature of preaching. Whilst the doctor and the murderer maybe
stating plain simple facts, the platform is place of power and influence and it's also one-way traffic. The preacher doesnt get challenged, at least certainly not there and then. Preaching also carries a certain supernatural element to it which the other 2 do not. That is to say, the preacher is supposedly representing God in some respect.

I'm sure this is a point that would be vehemently denied by some but the position of the preacher is an elevated one and the position of the listener is submissive. I believe there are those in SMC who just plainly love the elevated position.

If someone with a huge weight problem is proclaiming the power of Christ, then clearly that individual is lacking something of the power of which they speak. Would you buy hair restorer from a bald man who was fervently extolling its efficacy?

To be preached at by someone who is grossly overweight about some other different aspect of the flesh is something that has bothered me in the past. That's why I've raised it.

Petitor, thanks for your thoughts.

I certainly don't have long-term plans to stay but I would like to rescue a few people before I go. I'm really saddened that there are so many people that have been badly damaged or deeply hurt in some way at the hands of SMC down through the years. (Is the figure in the hundreds?) In my area, I can think of no other church that has a similar shameful testimony. Church rifts, splits, fall outs etc etc yes, plenty of them but nothing like the scale and depth of SMC. This forum and the latigo site have been instrumental in my understanding of this.

The more people both in and out of SMC that know about these sites, the better. I'm sure, for example that if some people in Inverclyde knew just a little about what goes on they would perhaps think twice about spending their money in struthers.

A suggestion for latigo -

Find out how much it is to have a billboard poster in a prime greenock site.
Design a simple message that says "things at struthers church need to change" (or whatever)
Direct them to the latigo site.
Write a specific piece on there that in a non-inflamtory way summarises the history and the problems.(Link to this discussion as well)

How would you go about this? Find out how to accept anonymous donations online and then put a button on your site clearly stating what the money is for. I'll pledge £100 towards the cost. If others are willing to pledge, you might get some idea whether or not it's feasible.

If that all went ahead, maybe, if the Holy Spirit moved, the leadership at SMC would seek to find reconciliation and forgiveness from those who have been hurt. Or do mircales not happen in 2012?

part of me can see why the billboard thing may seem like a good idea. Hit 'em in the pocket where it hurts kind of thing? Personally though I wouldn't want to see that happen as there are people I care about employed in the bookshop and school. It Might( but I doubt it) get the leaders to be present in the room with those who need to speak to them about their time as part of the church but you're right, nothing short of a move of God's holy spirit will make them actually care about you, me or anyone else on this forum in any recognisable way.

squareone, i am glad that you have sympathy with others employed in the bookshop and school. I only wish that the leaders in Struthers showed 1% of that level of sympathy dealing with the lives they have damaged. People have walked out of their jobs because they could not cope with the trauma they were going through because of Struthers. Are their lives and careers less valuable than those of the current struthers employees?

As a more general argument, I am not sure that the fact that Struthers creates employment is sufficient reason to let the abuse continue. That was the kind of argument the catholic church used to cover up abuse in the past - "we cannot possibly act on this, people will lose their jobs". OK, it was "the guilty" individuals not innocent third parties, but I would still worry about that argument in principle. Are we really saying that the pain and suffering is worth it because it keeps people in a job - some of them the very people perpetuating the abuse from what I am reading?

To me there is no argument. Jesus himself told the story of someone going to a friend at midnight for 3 loaves of bread and the friend being unwilling to get out of bed until the person persists, concluding, "I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his fried, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs." Luke 11v 5-8

Ultimately, they will either have to give in and offer apologies or watch the whole edifice come crumbling down. Unlike others, I don't actually believe it will require a move of the Holy Spirit. I think any sociologist could tell you that it is a simple law of human nature that the organisation will now fail. The only way an organisation like struthers can survive is if it is all a big mystery - the emperors new clothes. Once it is out in the open, whether on a website or a billboard, it will collapse. That is simply a law of human nature. Putting it on a billboard may of course speed the collapse and may helpothers currently trapped in the organisation.

The only alternative Struthers have is to bite the bullet and start making public apologies. Personally, I don't see that happening, although the passage quoted above gives some hope!

Squareone, I see where you're coming from and bless you for wanting to protect those that you love. I have to say though that ThePetitor makes some excellent points and overall, I agree.

When I began looking at all of this a number of months ago, I was genuinely suprised at the depth of feeling and how many people had been affected. Now, I find it astonishing that despite the outcry, SMC has refused to engage in any kind of dialogue. This is either fear or stupidity. History certainly shows that this approach almost certainly never works.

The purpose of the billboard is not really to hit them in the pocket but rather to get people both in and out of the church to realise that there are serious problems. We have some lovely, lovely people in the church who are frankly blissfully unaware.

Some people will buy the line that all of this is just a 'work of the devil' but there will be those that realise there is no smoke without fire.

Petitor I apologise for being tactless. No, present employees are of course not more important than past. It's just that I happen to know some of the present ones. Am sorry.

Actually some of the present employees that I really care about are the ones who have hurt me the most in this whole debacle...am just not near the point where I want to see the whole thing crumble down around their ears.

You're both right though, it's up to the leaders. Am in over my head, but I get that at least :)

Hi all

Yes, I agree that a time for change is coming and SMC can't hide from the scrutiny any more. The number of people who have been hurt and deeply affected by this church I think must be well into the hundreds. I say this because, when I attended the church, at it's height the congregation would have been well over a thousand members from various areas in the UK. Now there only seem to be around 300 members.

That's an awful lot of hurt people out there!

My prayers at the moment are going out for the parents who are taking their children to this church and for the kids who are attending Cedars and being exposed to this twisted form of christianity. I pray to God they will wake up and smell the coffee before their children's minds are further damaged by what is clearly NOT God's word.

I know of other churches also who are actively remembering the remaining SMC group in their own prayers and devotions and I don't think it's going to take a bill-board for change to come to the church. God does work in mysterious ways and it's evident he is beginning to do so by wakening people up as we speak.

It will be an exciting time ahead as one-by-one the congregation begin to see the real light of God and I believe it's happening already. Maybe not quickly enough for some but God will make it happen in his own time. Fantastic!

Big love and joy to you all xxx

squareone - no need to apologise. I meant the question to draw attention to the suffering that has been caused, not as a dig at your generous and commendable concern for the welfare of others.

Like cbarb, i see this as an exciting time. Honest people in Struthers have asked God to move and He is moving - just not the way the leaders expected!