The reason I say that Alcor cryonics is like a religion, is because they are not doing science, and what they are doing is based on a bodily resurrection in the future based on a blind faith in their ideology. They just substituted the word Technology for Jesus/God.
"One day Technology will resurrect the body". They have no proof for this, all the proof and evidence is going against them.

Its interesting that the (possible) Alcor employee or volunteer posting here, says they are using science to advance the future of human life.
But they are NOT using science. They are doing the opposite of science. What they are doing is closer to what the Egyptians did when they were making mummies.

If cryonics were a science, there would be proper studies being done in a step-wise fashion, like other branches of bioscience.
But instead, they are freezing heads, hiring PR companies, and having multimillion dollar insurance policies signed over to them, in a cloud of secrecy. There is even obvious harassment of critics, which has spilled into this forum.

So yes, the burden of proof is 100% on the cryonics people to prove their case using the methods of science, and as stated, having published studies in peer reviewed scientific journals.

Note the cryonics people have been banned from scientific fields dealing with the freezing and cooling of human organs in medical science.
That is because it is quackery, and they are messing around with dead human bodies, and they are collecting millions in life insurance policies, and they are trying to hush it up.

They can't be allowed to go on like this in the USA. If they want to make frozen mummies, then obviously they need to be regulated like a cemetery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 08:56AM by The Anticult.

just one point to clarify, is that it seems this thread was started as a cryonics whistleblower thought there was some cult-like activity going on in the cryonics business.

There are a lot of serious questions about cryonics, and companies like Alcor.
After looking at some of what is going on, it does appear that what is being said is correct, and is cause for very serious concern.

One of the main concerns seems to be surrounding the body/corpse, and the money.
One can see that cryonics companies are using emotive persuasion techniques on their customers, to SCARE them about all the horrible things that can happen to them, like family members burying them, etc.

That is the set-up to get them to sign over large life insurance policies to the cryonics company. One logically assumes that part of this persuasion package is going to be the Power of Attorney, as a person can lose their faculties near the end of their life. So the cryonics companies try to get that power, to make sure their "customer" is not taken from them, by a spouse, or family member. (they have info about, living wills, conservator, guardian, executor, power of attorney or medical surrogate, etc)

So then you have a cryonics company, with legal powers over a dying person, and the dying person could have a life insurance policy paying out in the millions to the same cryonics company.
One can be sure they also try to convince people to turn over their entire estates to the cryonics company, to "care for the body" in the future.

So one frozen body could be worth 2 million easily, plus much more for the estate.

So what if they get in the position where a person loses their faculties, and is on life support for months or longer? Then are the cryonics people hanging around the bedside?
What if a cryonics fanatic decides to speed nature along, and perform a type of euthanasia by injection? (search for: Dora Kent murder).

On top of this, an article said Alcor claimed over 700 clients? So that could easily be 1.5 BILLION dollars in life insurance payouts right there. On top of that are some rich folks who give massive estates to Alcor.
So this is a multi-billion dollar enterprise.

Wouldn't it also make sense for the cryonics company to talk people up into higher life insurance premiums, just "to be safe"? They could use the same scare tactics for that.

They know that once they have the body, and power over the remains, and the money from the policy, then NO ONE CAN EVER SEE THE BODY AGAIN.
Not the family.
No one can have access to what is happening to the money either. That is all secret too.

So if the body were to go "missing" no one can ever know, because its all secret.
So if someone turns over millions to care for their body, once their are dead, there is no oversight. The body could be discarded after a decade or so, and no one can ever know.

Alcor has detailed information pages about...
Life Insurance, Term Insurance, Whole Life Insurance, Universal Life Insurance, Prepaid - Cash or Equivalent, Trusts, Alcor Standard Trust, Special Trusts, Annuities, and many many other things.

Conclusion: this is ultimately multi-billion dollar body-snatching.
They know perfectly well cryonics doesn't work, and can't work. But its not about that anymore. Its about pushing things along far enough, so they can get those millions and billions rolling in. And they have fought their critics so viciously, as they don't want oversight, as that would force them to spend all that money only on keeping the freezers running.

This is a massive multi-billion dollar swindle on the upswing.


Funding Methods for Cryopreservation at Alcor
[www.alcor.org]

To whom it may concern:

"advancedatheist" has been banned from this message board.

To whom it may concern:

This message board is not about debating the claims of cryonics.

This message board thread raised the relevant question--is cryonics a "cult movement"?

Let's stay focused on that issue.

Is cryonics somehow cult-like?

How is it specifically cult-like?

Otherwise this thread is not relevant within the context of this message board.

FREETED, I must say you have raised some interesting points about cryonics. I think after reading this thread I now believe that if cryonics is not a true cult, it is cult-like in a new-age way. There are certain aspects of religion about it as pointed out by The Anticult.
"Mummification" for the "afterlife" not to mention the old "science will resurrect your body someday". New age prattle.

The fact someone was already banned because of this thread shows the level of fanatism and vitriol for critics usually reserved for a cult or a "new believer" in many religions. The tone of this thread was and is respectful.

Most interesting is the amount of monies trading hands here with the cryogenic salesmen (and yes, it's sales...plain and simple). It may either be a Ponzi scheme or a cult-like organization considering the apparent secrecy regarding the money.

I still would like to see transparency within the cryogenic companies regarding their balance sheets. There is no shame in a business posting their quarterly earnings. Granted a Close Corporation (which these cryonic ones apparently are) need not make public it's balance sheet...but transparency would go a long way to remove the "money grubbing" cultist tag.

Its interesting if one runs Alcor through various criteria of cult-like unsafe groups and companies.
For instance, the Warning Signs at this link. [www.culteducation.com]

Alcor does appear to meet most of the unsafe group warning sign criteria, by what has been shown so far.
It would be interesting to run Alcor through other unsafe group criteria, and see how they add up.
[www.factnet.org]

Alcor is very authoritarian, as can be seen in various reports. They work to influence people to hand over all rights to their dead body, life insurance and estate.
They use pressure and fear tactics to recruit and sign people up, and then keep them.
They talk a lot about seperating people from family members and spouses who don't approve. (their solution is to give Alcor all the rights to your corpse and money).

There are a number of arrogant charismatic leaders, who reject scientific and ethical criticism, and reject the scientific consensus against cryonics.
They are very secretive, and are a self-selected, self-perpetuating board.
They exercise massive control over employees and members, as they seem to own the rights to their dead bodies, and they can revoke "eternal life" from a true believer at their whim.
They are very active in recruiting new members, using complex tactics, and are extremely money oriented, as seen in the complex financial arrangements they create.
They use a barrage of pseudoscience to confuse people, when in reality there is zero scientific justification for what they are doing.

There is a financial salesman named Rudi Hoffman who does complex financial deals around cryonics and Alcor. There are hundreds of links of him and Alcor.
[www.rudihoffman.com]


There is also some info, that Alcor has paid the life insurance premiums for some of its employees, while also being the beneficiary of the same life insurance plan. Think about that. How many companies are the beneficiary for their employees life insurance plan? So if an employee dies, the company gets a huge life insurance pay-out. They also get their employees corpse.




Notice also a link here, where a person (Thomas Kirschner) had his Alcor contract CANCELLED without notice, even though Alcor was still the beneficiary.
"How I lost my membership at Alcor" [www.cryonet.org]

Notice how Alcor just cuts people off from "eternal life", and seems to use this as a threat, and uses fear and other emotional tactics on their own members?

Its obvious what happened here. They wanted to cut-off foreign insurance policies, and instead force those non-USA folks to PAY CASH UP FRONT.
(they are not concerned how they are going to move a dead corpse across the ocean, and the damage that will cause).
These folks are completely ruthless how they CANCEL this guys "eternal life" without any notice at all. (obviously, that is a SHOCK and SCARE tactic to get paid up front to get some cash-flow).

Does any reasonable person think these folks are going to keep the freezers on, when the person is dead, and all the money is collected and spent? A dead person has NO legal rights, and there is no external oversight. Once you are dead, and they have the money, its game over. No friend or family member can come in there are make sure you are even still in a freezer, you could be cremated a month after you are dead and the insurance checks have cleared.

One assumes it would be completely legal to send some bodies out for cremation, or dissolve the body on-site chemically, as its their dead body now, not yours, as you no longer exist. And no one would ever know if that was being done.

Possibly the only person who could do anything about this, would be the local coroner or Medical Examiner?
Its unbelievable that it seems anyone can hang human corpses and heads 4-deep in freezers, with no oversight?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2009 03:09AM by The Anticult.

as a side-bar, there is also a very lucrative underground market in the USA and worldwide for human bones and tissues from dead bodies.
There have been many abuses of bodies donated to science, with parts being sold off for profit, for example.

When a body is donated to science, the corpse can be sliced and diced, and "mutilated" in countless ways, used in crash tests, rotted in forensics tests, and just about anything you don't want to imagine.
It can even be cremated and buried without any individual markings.

So clearly, once you hand your dead body over to groups like this, they can do basically anything with it. They own it.

The Anticult:

"Key Man" insurance is used by companies to retain IMPORTANT employees(Managers, Top producers, Top tech nerds, etc.) and to give the company money to "get over the hump" with that employee's untimely death (pre-retirement). It is set up with a cash-building life insurance policy such as whole life. It would be taken out BY the company and listing the company as beneficiary.

Upon retirement, the policy is surrendered and the acrued cash value of the policy would be given to the departing employee as an extra "bonus".

As far as Alcor goes, it seems Cult-like since ALL employees have these policies and the fear of "no eternal life for you" hanging over their heads if they screw up, leave, talk to the press, whatever. Creepy.

right, that is a good point, like how some companies insure supermodels legs for a million bucks. That is business insurance, same for an athlete.

But as you say, the bizarre and cultish thing here is that the employee risks "eternal bodily damnation and ex-communication" if they don't do what they are told, or if they ever speak out in public.

There is an Imminst.org - Immortality Institute
www.imminst.org/forum/index.php

On their forums, there is some talk about the string of CEO's for Alcor, the place sounds like its in chaos. How does the CEO even know who is in those freezers?
Alcor is crying out for more donations, but it sounds like an evangelist on sunday morning asking for more gifts.

But the larger issue of these "Immortality" groups...these are all huge money-makers, with their super-expensive potions for sale, and they seem to be clearly in the Sci-Fi cultish group area.
Sure, they are more sophisticated than many other cultish groups, but they are selling Immortality, and it ain't cheap.

There is another messageboard about cryonics called
The Cold Filter
www.network54.com/Forum/291677/

There are posts there about the new Larry Johnson book coming out, and even some people calling for regulation.
What is interesing is they seem to be blind to the psychological persuasion and sales tactics and financial exploitation by Alcor.

They also seem to be concerned about the "malpractice" being done in these cryonics companies by incompetent staff. Don't they know there is no actual malpractice being done? Once the body is legally dead, and they have it signed over to them, they can basically do whatever they want with the body. They own it.
It appears to be like when you give your body over to science, and then they can do anything with it, from cutting it into 100 pieces, to even allowing parts of it to rot for forensic testing, to crash-tests, to anonymous disposal of the remains. Do cryonics supporters understand that once you are dead, and some company legally has your body, that they can do anything they want with the body, and no one will ever know? It appears to be totally legal for them to dispose of the corpse at will, and do anything they want with it.

Also, Alcor seems to be in chaos, a reasonable person would not even trust them to store your furniture at this point.

If the local authorities or coroner is ever allowed to SAFELY check out those freezers, and take a look at what is in there, some of the cryonics supporters may be in for the shock of their lives.
But they will not let anyone look, as there are cases on record going back 20 years (Dora Kent) where Alcor was fighting against the coroner. Their website is full of propaganda about this.

One has to wonder, who really knows what is in those freezers anymore?