Quote
TWrelated

Quote
The Anticult
apparently in the Alcor contract people sign, (its a huge thick contract which most people ain't gonna read in total)

Its only a few pages...

ok, then please post a link to the full contract. Not just the Alcor Patient Trust and Document, but the entire thing people have to sign with 2 witnesses, and get notarized.

Also, the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act must be read as well, as that is what really counts.
[www.anatomicalgiftact.org]

Also, the insurance contracts, and possible trust contacts.

People need to take all these to a proper lawyer and have them review it in detail.
They are using technical word redefining in that Alcor contract, where they imply the money is to only be used for "providing care" for the "Patients". (this is where they redefine the word for legally dead corpse to the deceptive technical word "Patient").
Then then say the bodies are "long-term research specimens".

But if you read the next paragraphs, its obvious that THEY are the exclusive beneficiary, and they use that money according to the by-laws of the company. If you know anything about non-profits, they can just hire themselves, and do almost anything with their assets.
(of course they add in the part that some of this MAY change if you are ever deemed "legally alive" again! Yes, it may also change at the End of The World Rapture next week too. Those are just fluff-words in the contract).

but that being said, just for fun, lets count the Alcor Patient Care Trust Document pages.
11 pages of legal text, with a 4 page preamble about it. So just that is about 15 pages.
Uniform Anatomical Gift Act = 50 pages.
Insurance contracts and possible trust contacts? (no one ever reads those thing either).
So at minimum, you are looking at 100 pages of legal text.

For example, here is a quote where a person describes joining Alcor.

QUOTE:
"Getting cryonics life insurance and a cryonics membership is a lengthy process that's full of paperwork... Alcor must become both the owner and the beneficiary of your life insurance policy...
... Alcor makes you complete a pile of legal documents half-an-inch thick. And these must be signed by two witnesses as well as notarized..."
UNQUOTE

So 1/2 inch thick is about 150 pages, which sounds about exactly correct.
150 pages of legal text, is not "only a few pages". Why did TWrelated write that?

Why is almost everything around cryonics so full of cryonics chicanery?
Do they think they are dealing with idiots?
Did the cryonics people ever stop to think that their own Cryonics Chicanery(Trademark) is the real problem?

Note to cryonics salespeople: your sales-methods are about as dubious as some guy trying to upsell you to premium leather upholstery on your car.

And the anti-science mentality is 1000x worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2009 11:04PM by The Anticult.

Quote
The Anticult
ok, then please post a link to the full contract.

All I've seen is the Ted Williams paperwork... its 2 or 3 pages at most, plus some later amended supporting materials. His agreement was made quickly after death: maybe a living membership contract is different...

My agreement with the source is not to post it.

Not trying to argue, just trying to be factual.

I imagine any interested party could apply for membership in Alcor and receive the contract.

Well, the only way to be factual is to see the Ted Williams contract. The problem with cryonics is that most of the facts are twisted and manipulated.

Maybe the Ted Williams contract was 3 pages, or maybe not, but until we see the contract, that can't be verified. That sounds like a cover letter.

Perhaps a contract made AFTER legal death by the executor might be different, as they are no longer a living person. But they would still have to donate under the other massive contracts.

But how could Alcor make a contract AFTER the death of Ted Williams, when they claim they need to get to the body right away? How long did Alcor wait to claim the body? That sounds very suspicious, and needs to be looked into. Was this a publicity stunt gone bad?


So here is a fact, the approx 15 page basic contract from Alcor.
(this is only a small part of the entire contract, as mentioned above.).
Cryonics may be amateur hour in terms of the blood-letting, but whoever wrote up these contracts is no amateur. Just try to read and figure this out, and explain what it REALLY means in real words and real terms.

Alcor Patient Care Trust, May 4, 1997
As amended May 2, 1999 (and now irrevocable)
[www.alcor.org]

Quote
The Anticult
But how could Alcor make a contract AFTER the death of Ted Williams, when they claim they need to get to the body right away? How long did Alcor wait to claim the body? That sounds very suspicious, and needs to be looked into. Was this a publicity stunt gone bad?

Apparently the son contacted Alcor upon death or shortly before. Forms were faxed from Alcor to the hospital, partially completed and faxed back. It seems a Florida cryonics company may have been involved with immediate preparation. The body was then flown to Alcor in Arizona within a couple of hours.

A search of the web should reveal many of the details from the time, and afterwards. The Sports Illustrated article "What Really Happened to Ted Williams?" paints a disturbing overview, though Alcor denies it is accurate.

The entire Ted Williams fiasco shows how unprofessional "cryonics" is managed. It does sound like a publicity stunt, to try and get attention. After all, the cryonics people know their target audience is tiny, so they may think they just need to do some stunts to get in the media?

For example, there seem to be some links around about Patrick Swayze and cryonics, its as if some cryonics people try to link cryonics with famous celebrities to try and get some publicity.
The Cryonics Institute is expert at sales and PR.
You can see some cryonics groups hyping links with Paris Hilton?
[www.theregister.co.uk]
Its probably all bullshit from both sides, just to say dumb things in the media for attention.

There was an article by Bill Joy, Why The Future Doesn't Need Us. [www.wired.com]

There should be an article about cryonics, Why The Future Doesn't Need These Cryonics People.


The cryonics people constantly cry the scientists are in a conspiracy against cryonics, which is false. There is no science in cryonics, and almost no rationality.
As others have mentioned, if a person wants to be rational, then donating your organs to save lives is the way to go.
But no question, at the top level of cryonics, its just turned into a multi-level money-making scheme.
They could make countless millions if it catches on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2009 05:11AM by The Anticult.

There is a cryonics promoter named Aschwin de Wolf, who is connected with Alcor, is listed as living over in Phoenix Az, and is "a consultant for a number of cryonics organizations". So he makes good money promoting cryonics.
Maybe someone closely connected with the Phoenix cryonics groups, can fill us in...
________________________________________
POSTSCRIPT NEWSFLASH:
QUOTE: "Alcor is proud to announce the marriage of research associate Chana Williford to Aschwin de Wolf. Chana and Aschwin were married the evening of April 7th, 2007, in Phoenix, Arizona. David Pizer, a minister of the Society for Venturism, officiated."
___________________________________________________________

So Alcor's employees, spend their lives promoting cryonics, and get married by another Alcor employee David Pizer, who is a minister in the Church of Venturism. Well, at least the terrible bias and distortion in their information makes perfect sense.

Aschwin de Wolf has a bizarre blog entry below, where he is proposing all sorts of strange things, and as well, promoting setting up those bogus "trusts" that are being sold by his cryonics friends and business partners.

There is incredible intellectual dishonesty in his blog, albeit done in a pseudo-intellectual way.
Notice below how Aschwin de Wolf in very calm language APPEARS to be promoting which could be called at best assisted suicide for the terminally ill? Is he? What is he saying?

Note also that he does not even admit that legally dead people are dead!
His paragraph about cryonics being long term critical care medicine is FALSE. Its an outright fraud. The people are legally DEAD.
If they are not dead, then that is assisted suicide, or worse. If anyone did cryonics or ANYTHING like that, on someone who is not legally dead, that would be assisted suicide, or murder.

Notice how he says its about "employing metabolic arrest"? What is this guy talking about?
Is he telling his friends, like Mark Plus, that its ok to "employ metabolic arrest" in humans?

His blog is just full of unbelievable twistings of illogic, even talking about a "scientific" tipping point, when in fact, they aren't doing any relevant science. Its amazing they are able to fool anyone with this stuff, even though their numbers so far are only in the hundreds, as most people see through this gibberish in seconds. But he is able to bamboozle quite a few people on various blogs with his style of writing.

Aschwin de Wolf and Chana de Wolf are nothing less than pseudo-intellectual salespeople of the cryonics business.

Notice also that these guys are all obsessed with SELLING CRYONICS. That is basically all they talk about.
He talks about "presenting" cryonics as medicine, and not freezing "dead" people. That is their deceptive sales strategy in a nutshell. If you look at what they are saying, they are saying that legally dead people, are not actually dead. Do they really believe that, or it is just a sales tactic?

There is a bizarre aspect to cryonics people where they constantly can't seem to understand why people don't want to do it. This is because most people see that its a fraud, and a scam. They see right through it. But the cryonics people do incredible mental gymnastics to try and get around this basic fact that people see cryonics as a scam, and that science and scientists reject it as extreme quackery.

but notice Aschwin de Wolf's sales strategy...

- target desperate critically ill people.
- present cryonics as medicine. (its is NOT medicine, the patient is dead).
- community building (this is the cultish aspect of bringing people in emotionally)
- financial instruments (this is the bogus method to turn your assets over to his associates companies)
- assisting families with decisions (this is giving them the power of attorney)


___________________________________

[www.depressedmetabolism.com]
One solution to the “death” issue is to present cryonics as a form of long term critical care medicine. Instead of presenting cryonics as the science of freezing “dead” people in the hope of future revival, cryonics can be presented as a branch of medicine that employs metabolic arrest to allow critically ill patients to reach a time when effective treatment is available to treat their disease. Presenting cryonics as a form of critical care medicine does not only stress the fact that human cryopreservation is a logical extension of conventional medicine, it should also minimize religious objections concerning “raising the dead,” “immortality,” and “playing God.” Just like mainstream religion has embraced modern medicine, so it can embrace cryonics as a novel but logical extension of it.

We know that terminally ill people are often willing to go to great lengths, and accept considerable uncertainty of outcome (even risks), to find a cure for their disease or to extend their life. In this sense, the lack of complete certainty of resuscitation of cryonics patients should not present a formidable obstacle to the acceptance of human cryopreservation. Perhaps the more fundamental difference between conventional medicine and cryonics is the duration of care. ...

There is no magic bullet to “selling” cryonics, but presenting cryonics as a form of medicine, encouraging community building, facilitating legal instruments to retain financial assets during long term care, and assisting families in making cryonics decisions may lessen the psychological barrier to choose cryonics.
____________________

there is a bizarre little sub-plot in the cryonics community.
Apparently, there is a guy who renamed himself as...William O'Rights, as in, Bill O'Rights, (Bill Of Rights).

and supposedly this guy was a big supporter of cryonics for many years?
But he got terminal cancer, and has apparently made no preparation for his cryonic freezing? So they were calling for donations in an emergency panic.
There are long threads about this.

[www.imminst.org]

[www.imminst.org]

[www.imminst.org]

David Pizer was making posts about it, with a small group of people who do cryonics for a living making "donations", like Mike Perry, Robert Ettinger, etc.
Their goal was about $30,000, going to the Society For Venturism, which is run by David Pizer, and the Immortality Institute.
(or something, its a very confused process).

There were a few bumps in the process, like a drug bust for Mr Bill O'Rights at some point, and comments by some cryonics folks that it was curious that such a strong supporter of cryonics, had not prepared at all? And that he lived a risky lifestyle?
Then it gets even more confusing, with endless cross-posting and donation requests.

But one has to wonder.
David Pizer was bragging in a news article that he was worth 10 million dollars, or whatever? Well, if his close buddy Mr. William O'Rights needs some money to get frozen, why didn't David Pizer just donate $20,000? That is peanuts to someone worth 10 million.

The entire thing is very strange. How is the money being administered, and to who? Who is tracking the donations?

Don't want to speculate too much, but people need to be very cautious when dealing with panicked last-minte emergency fund-raising appeals. Anyone who knows anything about how these "non-profits" work knows what can happen.
And again, they are using fear to try and motivate cryonics members. Fear of your family being against your cryonic freezing and cremating you. Fear of insurance companies not paying out, so you better pay in cash in advance.
Fear of not paying in advance in cash, and then getting cancer and being forced to use your money for medical treatment....
Fear of not signing your policy over to the cryonics company, and then being forced to liquidate it to pay for medical expenses...

very aggressive fear and scare tactics being used, almost constantly.

________________________________________
[www.wmtw.com]
Bill O’Rights Arrested On Drug Charges

By News 8 WMTW POSTED: 3:46 pm EST January 7, 2005

SANFORD, Maine -- Police in Sanford assisted Maine drug enforcement agents in arresting a man on drug charges.
A joint investigation led the officers to execute a search warrant at 177 Lebanon St. Thursday. They found 50 pounds of marijuana, guns and more than $80,000 in cash.

Investigators arrested Billie Bonsall – also known as William O’Rights – who is being held at the York County Jail.
____________________________________________
Sanford Town Council
Town Council Meeting Minutes – February 28, 2006
[www.sanfordmaine.org]
Ordered, to authorize a transfer of criminal forfeiture in relation to a drug enforcement case handled by the Sanford Police Department. Vice-Chairman Hanslip makes a motion to authorize a transfer of criminal forfeiture in relation to a drug enforcement case handled by the Sanford Police Department, seconded by Councilor Paul. Police Chief Thomas Jones explains to the Council the case involving Mr. William O’Rights, aka/ Bill O’Rights. The Town Council voted 7-0 to authorize a transfer of criminal forfeiture in relation to a drug enforcement case handled by the Sanford Police Department.

_______________________________________
Property, What Sold December 13, 2002
[archive.seacoastonline.com]
27 Orchard Dr, from Eleanor E Cross to William O Rights et al, $247,000 (LAND), November 1.

_______________________________________
[marciejohnsoncryonicscasestudy.blogspot.com]
marciejohnsoncryonicscasestudy.blogspot.com/2008/08/cryonics-on-orights-and-johnson-funds.html

Dave tried to raise funds for Marcie Johnson in 2007-- and desptie that situation being unresolved, Dave is now attempting to raise funds for O'Rights-- aka Billie Bonsall [+] The Venturist webpage has not been updated and there is no disclousre on the Marcie Johnson situation.
______________________________

There were some posts that William O'Rights "generously donated" money to cryonics in the past?
Is that true? How much, when and to who?
If he donated so much money, exactly who did he donate it to? Do they have the receipts?
If so, then why didn't they throw in a free-freezing?

Where did that money come from, that he donated?
Is any related to the above noted "criminal forfeiture"? Should it have been returned?

QUOTE:
David Pizer
July 24 2008, 1:26 AM
"When he did have a little money he shared it with the cryonics community years ago, and made some generous donations."
[www.network54.com]



Why doesn't anyone in the cryonics game seem to ask any questions? They are not frozen yet, the brain is still supposed to be working.

The above news report says... "They found 50 pounds of marijuana, guns and more than $80,000 in cash."
Why is virtually every core member of the Venturist cryonics commuity so interested in firearms?

Over on a cryonics forum The Cold Filter [www.network54.com]
there is what appears to be a former cryonics insider posting under the name Melody Maxim, who appears to believe in cryonics in general, but has very very harsh criticism for the people running the cryonics companies, and working in them.

There are many things extremely wrong with these cryonics companies. There are very serious issues.
There seem to be a only a couple cryonics believers who are saying anything or asking any questions.

Most of the other people who write and speak about it, are in a deep conflict of interest, as they
are being PAID by the same cryonics companies as employees, consultants, board members, or ministers of Venturism, or sell insurance policies for cryonics, or tend to the horse stables of Dave Pizer, or run his motel.

Its shocking that most of the cryonics believers, who are not being paid by the cryonics companies, seem to be so completely uncurious about all of the abuses, and obvious hanky-panky going on.
Anyone can see the blatant tactics being used on people, the scare tactics, the secrecy. Some of these companies have millions in assets and income.

Obviously the people making the money are not going to say anything. But what about the general cryonics believers? How can they be so uncurious and naive?
The entire business and financial side of the cryonics game stinks to high heaven.

____________________________
QUOTE by poster "Melody Maxim": [www.network54.com]
"What I've printed on this forum, in regards to people like Platt, Harris and Federowicz, are about 25% of what I could have probably printed, without any risk of libel. I believe that, when Larry Johnson's book comes out, most of you will consider what I have written about these people, and others in cryonics, to be "child's play."
_____________________________