Apologies rrmoderator, this guy has taunted me for years. If you choose to delete my last post, I will certainly understand.

Thanks

If the YouTube "advancedatheist" is the same as this one, then he should apply the same criteria to his own "religion" as he does to others.
For example, he is making fun of the ancient god Thor.
But at this point, Cryonics is simply a religious belief around death, no different than any other religion. It says..."someday in the future we will be bodily resurrected somehow".

Is their any evidence that cryonics works?
Where are the successful results with animal testing? Mammal testing?
Why not just freeze some cells for cloning? (etc).


AdvancedAtheist also claims that according to...
"Ray Kurzweil in "The Singularity is Near," I coined the word "singularitarian"".
So the AdvancedAtheist has an iron in the fire, in that he is claiming to have coined the term Singularitarian. [en.wikipedia.org]
There are some connections to the old Extropians as well.

There is no question that parts of the Transhumanism movement, and some Singularists, are becoming quite cult-like in their approach, their rejection of the reality of scientific evidence which they dislike.
It is a type of futuristic Sci-Fi religion at this point, and should qualify as a New Religious Movement, NRM. Some of the people involved are quite fanatical. (of course there are also plenty of people involved who are more scientifically objective).

Also, to beat a drum of being a "non-profit" does not help, all that means is they don't pay taxes. Every single culty group has a "non-profit" these days, as that is the best way to avoid taxes, and funnel money around.
It would be better if they were a for-proft public company, then information could be accessed.

As far as Ted Williams individually, that was a matter for the courts to decide, like any other death in the family.
But the cryonics supporters have formed some groups, are hiring PR companies, and are now telling people to make things "secret" to avoid this level of media attention. (there are articles that say exactly that).
The whole thing is going down the wrong road, they need to do the exact opposite, and keep everything open, like any proper scientific project.

But it does appear that a closed-loop cultish mindset has developed around cryonics.
Combine that with large estates being handed over in people's wills, secrecy, anti-science, and philosophical fanaticism, and that is a recipe for serious trouble.

The Anticult: "But the cryonics supporters have formed some groups, are hiring PR companies, and are now telling people to make things "secret" to avoid this level of media attention. (there are articles that say exactly that). The whole thing is going down the wrong road, they need to do the exact opposite, and keep everything open, like any proper scientific project." "But it does appear that a closed-loop cultish mindset has developed around cryonics.
Combine that with large estates being handed over in people's wills, secrecy, anti-science, and philosophical fanaticism, and that is a recipe for serious trouble."

You are correct and that is exactly what I have been saying all along and now I am taking it to federal lawmakers with the help of several attorneys.

Now I must move on to other tasks at hand, but I will continue to monitor this forum. Thanks to all for allowing me this time. All I want to do is the right thing and that is exactly what I intend to do. I hope that everyone who reads this string will understand my position and will support me in it. Take care

also, the Wikipedia entry on cryonics is quite biased, for the simple reason that those with a vested interest in cryonics are able to control the information by persistance. Its way too optimistic, and exaggerated.

[en.wikipedia.org]

They avoid the problems with cryonics almost completely, and minimize criticisms. They seem to have gotten rid of the Ted Williams problem completely.

One interesting part is they talk about the cryonics subculture, with their own jargon, and meeting groups, and the like.
Also, each cryonic corpsical costs at least $150K. But they don't talk about the fact of turning over Estates to the cryonics group.
Cryonics came out of pseudoscientific fringe groups.

One cannot trust the claims being put forward by the cryonicists.

It does need to be regulated, just like organ donation upon death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 01:55PM by The Anticult.

Well, there is a brand new entry for Cryonics at SkepDic.com by Robert T. Carroll.
that's great!!

Cryonics
[www.skepdic.com]
QUOTE:

"A business based on little more than hope for developments that can be imagined by science is quackery. (Cryonics should not be confused with cryogenics, which is a branch of physics that studies the effects of low temperatures on the structure of objects.) There is little reason to believe that the promises of cryonics will ever be fulfilled. Even if a dead body is somehow preserved for a century or two and then repaired, whatever is animated by whatever process will not be the same person who died. The brain is the key to consciousness and to who a person is. There is no reason to believe that a brain preserved by whatever means and restored to whatever state by nanorobots will result in a consciousness that is in any way connected to the consciousness of the person who died two centuries earlier."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 03:23PM by The Anticult.

In one of the Ted Williams CNN videos, they have on Max More.
[www.youtube.com]
He is one of the leaders in this movement, and started Extropy. Max More is a fake name he created.
What is interesting, is other members of Extropy did the same thing, creating fake names for themselves. One of the names mentioned in this thread comes up. (Mark Plus)

"It would also be the start of a trend among Extropians: Mark Potts became Mark Plus; Harry Shapiro became Harry Hawk"
[www.wired.com]
"Mark Plus" also lists on the blog as Interests..."Cryonics, transhumanism, firearms..."
There is an end of the world "survivalist" mentality with some of the Ex-Extropians.


Max More presents as an arrogant, rabid ideological fanatic on CNN when talking about cryonics. He changed his named to Max More, which also could mean Maximum More. So he not only wants the Maximum, he wants more than the maximum? He appears to be quite an extremist, and even an ideological fanatic. Maybe Max More should have less arrogance, and More Science. He certainly sees himself as being some type of Prophet of transhumanism.

What is amazing about these folks, is certainly they are the last people on earth who would think they are in a culty situation. They think they are Thought Leaders, and intellectuals.
But when you step back from the hype, the changing of their last names as a group, the blind fanaticism, it really is way over the line. They have gotten to the point of attacking science and scientists who are demanding evidence for their claims.

And the aggressiveness displayed by Max More on CNN is very troubling. If one of the leaders of this movement will behave like that on CNN, what will they do in private?

Frankly, its a good thing that all of this information has come out in public, its best for everyone.
Ted Williams will certainly be laid to rest at some point in the near future, unless Alcor wants to use him for advertising purposes. But they may be forced to release his body.

Its sad how some of these Sci-Fi futuristic speculations seem to have morphed into aggressive and even cultlike organizations, dealing in frozen corpses and human heads. Its not just Alcor, there are all sorts of these groups springing up, to try and get their hands on the $150K a head.

Alcor, and the others are so enraged and aggressive, as they know damn well their days may be numbered, and they may get shut-down in the US, or have their money strictly regulated.
The bodysnatching of Ted Williams was probably meant to be a huge PR ploy.

It does remind one of the methods of the Raelians. [www.culteducation.com]
The only difference is that the Raelians just fabricate and pretend they are cloning people, they aren't actually trying to do it.

But the people like the "Alcorians", and those like them, they damn well will try to clone humans if they can. The extreme wing of these folks will conduct "experiments" on humans if they can get away with it offshore. There really is a lunatic cultic fringe in the Transhumanism area, who generally are able to hide behind pseudoscientific language.

But its interesting how all of these folks are tied together, Ray Kurzweil, Terry Grossman, Max More, Mark Plus, Alcor, and many others.
Its now become a huge business, Anti-aging and the baby boomers = billions of dollars.

The irony is that most of the Transhmanism people are 100% True Believers, they really do believe they are right and holy. True Believers are the most dangerous fanatics of all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 06:20PM by The Anticult.

its interesting that two cross-posts about this thread have some connections.


Anti-cryonics propaganda on Cult Education Forum
From: Mark Plus
[www.cryonet.org]

Anti-cryonics disinformation - ImmInst Forums
AdvancedAtheist
[www.imminst.org]

So its a similar cross-post by AdvancedAtheist and Mark Plus.

Its interesting how he says the thread is Anti-cryonics, which is not true. Even the person who started the thread said he is not anti-cryonics.
No one has said anything against cryonics if it can be proven to work. Which it has not.

Also, notice this person is play-acting like they don't know who this "someone" named Larry Johnson is. That is deliberately dishonest. He knows exactly who Larry Johnson is, and obviously monitors his web activity very closely.


Also, it appears this same person actually works for or has some connection to Alcor?

What gives these folks the right to run around being so consciously dishonest and deceptive?
What are they trying to hide and cover-up?

They are afraid of the book coming out about Ted Williams and Alcor, that's what.
And the board of Alcor is a self-perpetuating board, that has no accountability to anything but itself.

The more one peels back the layers of this Alcor and cryonics situation, the more foul the stench becomes. It has all the elements of a destructive and exploitative group, deception, fanatical anti-science ideology, Charismatic leaders, indocrination, economic exploitation and exploitation of human bodies, unaccountable board leadership, hiring PR companies, intense secrecy, closed-loop belief systems, jargon loaded language...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 09:31PM by The Anticult.

notice also below, that on some cryonic PR message boards, in what appears to be messages from this same poster, he pretends that he does not know who you are.
So that is someone who is engaging in conscious deception of newbies in the cryonic field. (those who have been around know what's going on, of course).

Why? One assumes to try to shape the perceptions of new recruits to join the cryonics dues paying membership club, and to sign over their insurance policies to Alcor.

(is that a good idea for a group with what appears to be cultic practices, to own the life insurance policies that pay off when their members die?)

Quote
FREETED
Apologies rrmoderator, this guy has taunted me for years. If you choose to delete my last post, I will certainly understand.

Thanks

this Alcor cryonics system, gets dirtier and dirtier, the more one looks into it.

What they are doing is posting on their message boards, various "tales of woe" of people who didn't prepare properly, and their cryonics at their death was messed up somehow. (like by a family member or spouse!).
They tell these tales of cryonic woe, of people missing out on "eternal life" of cryonics.

(in sales, that is the PAIN).

Then they give you the solution.
They give information about specific types of Whole Life Insurance that you need to buy, and then to sign over this life insurance to Alcor.
Yep, they take it over, they own your life insurance payout.

And its not for $150,000.
Some were talking of a payout of 20x that. So that is a $2,000,000-$3,000,000 life insurance policy that is signed over and owned by Alcor.

That's the sting right there, that's the swindle.
Sure, there will be some rich folks who donate a million, or their Estate to Alcor, but not enough.

But if they can sign up even just a few people a year to Alcor, and get them to sign over their life insurance to Alcor, and then keep them in Alcor paying dues for years, and get a 2-3 million policy, that will be millions a year in income for Alcor, as soon as these folks start dying off.

There is clearly even a lot more to it than this, but its a new angle, based on signing your life insurance policy over to Alcor, a completely unaccountable board.

Life Insurance is supposed to be to support one's dependants and family if one dies.

It will be interesting to see the fine print of how Alcor makes certain it stays the beneficiary of the insurance policy. That is where the indocrination THREAT comes in, as if you don't pay-up, then you miss out the cryonic "eternal life".

Meanwhile, probably all the frozen corpses in the containers are fractured/shattered into countless pieces, as they are so fragile. (those frozen bodies need to be examined by outside experts, not held in secret).

Liquid nitrogen is very damaging to human flesh. As a matter of fact, liquid nitrogen KILLS human flesh, as they use it in cryosurgery to freeze off skin-tages, warts, etc.
[emedicine.medscape.com]
[www.skinstreet.net]

Cryonics is a complete scam, they are literally destroying the flesh/cells/neurons of the entire human body and brain.
It amounts to a glorified life insurance swindle.
The unaccountable boards of the cryonics company can then spend the income from the insurance anyway they want, salaries, buildings, etc.
but of course, first the people have to die, and one assumes have to die in the right way, with the right papers signed, etc.

_________________________________________________
[emedicine.medscape.com]
Cell injury

Cell injury occurs during the thaw, after the cell is frozen. Because of the hyperosmotic intracellular conditions, ice crystals do not form until -5°C to -10°C. The transformation of water to ice concentrates the extracellular solutes and results in an osmotic gradient across the cell membrane, causing further damage. Rapid freezing and slow thaw maximize tissue damage to epithelial cells and is most suitable for the treatment of malignancies. Fibroblasts produce less collagen after a rapid thaw.3 Therefore, a rapid thaw may be more suitable for the treatment of keloids or benign lesions in areas prone to scarring.

Freeze damage can be seen when a steak is defrosted from the freezer. The steak juices that are seen when fully thawed represent the intracellular liquid that has escaped because of the damage to the cell wall. Low temperature also ensures maximum damage by further concentrating electrolytes intracellularly.

Keratinocytes need to be frozen to -50°C for optimum destruction. Melanocytes are more delicate and only require a temperature of -5°C for destruction. This fact is the reason for the resulting hypopigmentation following cryotherapy on darker-skinned individuals. Malignant skin cancers usually need a temperature of -50°C, while benign lesions only require a temperature of -20°C to -25°C.
____________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 10:34PM by The Anticult.

"What they are pursuing is not science, and they are banned from membership in our bylaws," said John Bischof, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Minnesota and an official of the Society for Cryobiology. "There's absolutely not one shred of evidence that they will ever be able to reanimate these people. The science doesn't exist."

_________________________________

The Cold, Hard Facts on Cryonics
[www.redorbit.com]
[...]
"Alcor says it has 765 members who have paid their fees, many by purchasing life insurance policies for the purpose. New customers are generated through referrals and events such as Cryofeast 2005, a potluck picnic scheduled for later this month in Sunnyvale, Calif. ("Fridge available," the invitation notes.)

Members who die become "patients" in the Alcor vocabulary, and what happens next is not for the squeamish.
...
The patient is next packed in ice and transported to Alcor's Scottsdale facility, which is in a nondescript office park next to an interior design company. There, in a makeshift operating room, the blood is drained from the patient's body and replaced with a special glycerol antifreeze.

If the patient has opted for preservation of just the head--the assumption being that future scientists will be able to grow a new body for it or else extract the personality and memories from the brain--it is detached from the body and placed in a special plexiglass box. In either case, holes are drilled into the skull to observe the brain and make sure the antifreeze is infusing evenly, and then the holes are plugged with wax.

Finally, the patient is frozen in nitrogen gas and lowered with a crane into one of the large storage vats, which can each hold up to 10 whole clients alongside several heads.

There's also a vat for pets of members, and it now contains about two dozen cats and dogs.

"Oddly enough, the pets can have better preservation right now than humans," said Alcor's Jones, "because a veterinarian can come in and euthanize them, so at the time of death we can be all prepared, no surprises."

There's no telling whether any given Alcor patient will end up bumping elbows with Williams, Alcor's most famous client, whose head and torso are stored separately here. Alcor officials do not like to talk much about the baseball legend, whose interment in 2002 after a protracted family squabble over his last wishes landed the company in the headlines.
...
But ask credentialed cryobiologists--scientists who specialize in the behavior of organisms at low temperatures--what they think of cryonics and they universally cringe. They fear that their little-understood field, which seeks better ways to temporarily preserve organs for transplant or buy time for critically injured soldiers on a battlefield by slowing their metabolism so they can be transported to a field hospital, has been hopelessly confused with cryonics.

"What they are pursuing is not science, and they are banned from membership in our bylaws," said John Bischof, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Minnesota and an official of the Society for Cryobiology. "There's absolutely not one shred of evidence that they will ever be able to reanimate these people. The science doesn't exist."
___________________________________________________