and of course, selling bodily Immortality, and the "Fountain of Youth" has been one of the primary swindles of human history.
Cryonics is just a selling bodily immortality swindle, using a cloud of pseudoscience to confuse people, and complex financial structures people don't fully understand, in a clouded legal framework.

No one is going to be allowed to monitor what is in those freezers, unless they take it to the supreme court, that is very clear. But its also very possible, if the cryonics company has the proper paperwork for the dead body, then they can do anything they want, including disposal of the corpse at their discretion.
It would be interesting to see the actual text of the documents people sign when they turn their dead body over to the company. If anyone has that text, please post it here.

The key is not the voluntary code of ethics they preach, but the actual law.
It seems that this falls under the same laws as donating a body to science. Which means the body is no longer a human being, and just a collection of body parts to be used and disposed at will.
(all this talk of cronics "patients" is simply a fraud, there is no patient, they no longer exist, literally and legally).

Can someone please post the full text of the document people sign about the body after death?

ah yes, the cryonics bodies are donated under the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act.
[en.wikipedia.org]

So its exactly like donating your body to science, which limits that body parts cannot legally be sold.

Cryonics people seem to very deluded about this, and the cryonics companies are not being honest and up-front.
Once you donate your body as a gift, then it can be used and disposed like any other body donated to science.

Cryonics is literally a scam, and a fraud. It doesn't even exist, as the body is donated to science, and can be used as such.
So that is more trickery by the cryonics people, it will all be there in the fine print, but their advertising talks about cryonics "patients" and the rest of it. Its all nonsense.
This is why they can get away with it.

________________________________
[www.straightdope.com]
[...]
QUOTE:
Those of weak stomach may want to fast-forward through the following, mainly gleaned from Mary Roach's Stiff (2003) and Kenneth Iserson's Death to Dust (1994):

Bodies may be split up, with the head sent to students learning brain surgery or nose jobs while the legs are packed off to students learning knee surgery.

At the University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville, researchers in criminal forensics expose cadavers to various environments and observe how they rot.

Cadaver research in automobile crash tests contributed to the development and testing of such devices as lap-shoulder belts, air bags, dashboard padding, and safer windshields. Most current crash-testing uses dummies, but some experts question whether the dummies accurately reproduce the damage done to a real human head, for instance.

Corpses are used to test military equipment such as body armor. Testing footwear designed to protect against land mines has been controversial--apparently some people are offended that a body donated to science would be blown up rather than patiently sliced into tiny pieces.

Medical-instrument firms find corpses helpful for instructing doctors in the use of new devices or procedures; the training process involves learning from mistakes, which works out better when the subject is already dead. Artificial joints are often tested on cadavers; meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies pick up the odd gland for hormone extraction and the like.
...
_____________________________________

there is an interesting thread at Cold Filter from 2006,
(where Mark Plus(advancedatheist) post as the same person).
[www.network54.com]

where they clearly understand the religious aspects of Immortality, the marketing and rebranding and "loss-leaders", the recruiting of new members, the secrecy, cult connections...

Of course, they never even consider or mention the actual fact that cryonics literally does not even exist, legally, or scientifically. Factually and technically, there is literally no such thing as cryonics.


new Cryonics Religion:
They talk about making cryonics into a religion, to get the religious protections.
The next step is for some people to make cryonics into an actual religion, like Scientology, so then they can be protected under the constitution. That will happen, if it hasn't happened already.

This area of new religions and cultish Immortalist groups are going to grow like wildfire. Boomers find death very unpleasant. This has a huge growth potential, if some groups set themselves up as Immortalist religions, and then use cryonics as part of that, they can make countless millions from the donated estates and insurance policies. Cryonics is the perfect mechanism to get entire estates donated to the religion.

And since the bodies have to be donated under the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act, they are free and clear, they can cremate and dispose the bodies anytime they need to, in total secrecy.
Its a new type of cemetery, in which the patrons pay up to millions to get in, forget 10 grand for a headstone.

Welcome to the The Hotel Cryofornia.
You check in for a few million bucks paid in advance, and you probably leave in a chemically dissolved solution a few years later. No one can ever know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2009 03:56PM by The Anticult.

Alright...you won me over...cryonics is clearly cult-like. And speaking of cult-like, where is the difference between this cult below, and cryonics? (except the psuedo-science freezing, that is)

[www.culteducation.com]

This thing constantly gets stranger and weirder. All it takes is a little critical thinking, and a bit of research. Basically what was being speculated about a cryonic cultic religion and cryonic church of Immortalism, has already happened years ago. It already exists.
For example,

There is a guy named David Pizer, who is listed a Former Alcor Vice President. David Pizer appears to also run the Church/Society of Venturism. He also appears to employ Mark Plus at some motel or resort. (Its a small small world afterall...)

There is plenty of information out there about this, one can imagine how much is not openly available.

There is an ABC article below.
First off, its a glorified puff-piece, which serves as an advertisement for Alcor, those puff-articles are easy to get with a good PR agency.
But notice how the mainstream media asks no questions at all.

They claim to be worth 10 million, but are they really? Making yourself sound wealthy, is just another way of saying you're not in it for the money. But with so many millions, then why can't they hire a web-designer, for starters? (it really is absurd).

Also, how could a person Will money to themselves in a "personal revival trust" when they are legally dead? That is beyond ridiculous. That sounds like a complete scamola with word trickery.
Money can be put into a trust or company, that can be operated by other people who are alive. But you are dead, and that's that. Dead is legally dead, don't get duped. There is no such thing as cryonic suspension, it doesn't exist. You are legally dead dead dead.

Obviously, that sounds like just ANOTHER sales-pitch to get people to pour all their assets into trusts, that these kindly folks and their associates will happily "manage" for them while they are allegedly frozen solid and dead dead dead!!
Again, the problem is that you are legally dead, and you literally no longer exist. Period. And so whoever controls those assets, owns those assets, of course.

this is a good punch line for a comedy act, or a Southpark episode.
Hey, come and let us freeze your dead corpse which you donate to science through us, and turn all your assets/insurance over to some type of fancy trust, (which we'll "manage" for you), and we promise to "do our best" to build those assets, and then turn them back over to you when you are revived in 200 years.
(also, just to be safe, having the freezers go "offline" by mistake and thus causing the corpses to have to be cremated is rather convenient, just in case).

These guys should have been running Enron. Your money is going to be liquidated faster than your corpse, and it would all be totally legal.
Its almost hard to believe this stuff is really happening out there. But believe it.
Its a mad mad world.


___________________________
[abcnews.go.com]
Couple Opt for Cryogenics for Themselves and Their Dogs
They'll Will Their Money to Themselves
Jan. 25, 2006

David and Trudi Pizer own a resort in Arizona, but today they're visiting the Alcor Life Extension foundation in Scottsdale. It's a place where they'll spend many, many years -- cryogenically frozen.

"It's the only alternative to dying," David Pizer said.

This procedure attracted a lot of attention when baseball legend Ted Williams was frozen at Alcor. Williams and the Pizers could be neighbors there for 100 years or more. About 142 human bodies and heads are now held in cold storage at one of two U.S. cryonics facilities.

Cryogenics was spoofed in the first "Austin Powers" movie, but the Pizers are dead serious about it. In fact, David Pizer feels uncomfortable in the room where he'll be housed after he dies.

"I would rather take an anti-aging pill than have to do this," he said.

But Trudi Pizer is fine. She said she has friends in this room already.

Being frozen and stored at Alcor isn't cheap.

"Some people just have their heads frozen, believing that in the future they'll be able to use another body," said Tanya Jones, Alcor's chief operating officer. "If you're having your head frozen, it will cost $80,000. The whole body is $150,000."

The Pizers plan on having their dogs frozen as well, which may remind some of the era of Egyptian pharaohs who had their whole families and servants buried with them so everyone could go to the afterlife together. But the Pizers aren't talking about the afterlife -- they just want to continue this life.

They also want to continue their life with some money. Right now, their estimated worth is $10 million. They plan on having even more money when they come back to life. The account they will set up is called a personal revival trust, and if it works as planned, David Pizer expects to be one of the wealthiest people on the planet.

But this couple say it's really not about money but about being together now and forever.

"I want to be with her forever, I mean it," David Pizer said.
______________________________________

They seem to want Power of Attorney too.

In a Cryonics chat at Cold Filter, there is a excerpt from an alleged email message from David Pizer, stating that they want to move to getting the Power of Attorney over your dead body.
So there you have it, a church/society, connected with a cryonics company, getting the power over the corpse and also control of the assets of the person. (its all to "care for the patient" of course!..nudge nudge wink wink..)

You have to hope that people don't let themselves get duped in this manner. In the cryonics game, there does seem to be a lot of self-promotional "moles", that is people who work for these companies trying to act like regular cryonics customers.
But there also seems to be some very naive people, who think that these companies have to keep your body frozen and use your (former) money for that. Obviously, they don't.
These folks seem to believe the cryonic propaganda and lie that there is such a think as legal cryonic suspension, when there isn't. There is only death.
So once you are dead, as stated, they can legally dispose of the body, and the assets, as they see fit. Due to the secrecy of it, no one would even know they did it! They can also use some smoke and mirrors too.

Notice in the quote below, that someone is encouraging David Pizer's idea to get the power of attorney over the body. They are trying to frame it as "protection" for cryonicists!
So they want complete control of the body, and complete control of whatever assets they can get. It really is quite brilliant, as they can say you need enough money to cover freezer expenses for 200 years, so that would be all the money you have, of course!

Notice again, how the pro-cryonics people always leave out the profound FACT, that you are DEAD, and thus have no rights, once the papers are signed.

Now obviously the psychological persuasion tactics of these folks are somewhat crude compared to more sophisticated cultish groups.
FEAR: One of their main methods is to use FEAR on people. They beat the drum that your evil "family" will want to deprive you of eternal life.
Ad-Hominem Personal Attacks on crtics: They also use the term anti-cryonicists, all the time. Another tactic. People are not anti-cryonicist, they are anti- getting scammed by swindlers. Cryonics doesn't exist, there is no such thing, legally or scientifically. You can see how the pro-cryonics people main argument is personal attacks, that is basically their main method.

So the pro-cryonicists are clearly very very cultlike in their methods. Very dishonest.

But they are deliberately using the religious impulse for "eternal life" and then transfering that to cryonics. They then use cryonics as a method to gain control of the dead body, and they use your dead corpse to gain control of the insurance/estate money, and get that away from your family.

Eternal Life > cryonics > corpse > cash

Its simply a new way to transfer people's entire inheritance estate to their company/group/religion.

Then once you are dead, and no family members can interfere, its all over.
Its the same with donating your body to science, you don't get to tell them what they can do with the body, they use the body the way they think it needs to be used.

Cryonics is not even a pseudoscience, its antiscience. And all the complex financial and legal stuff around cryonics are obviously a swindle to transfer millions of inheritance assets into the control of the Directors of these private companies/churches/societies.

Hopefully this meme of reality, will enter into the cryonics racket.

__________________________
QUOTE from Cold Filter chat below:

[www.network54.com]
...David Pizer is writing that the Society for Venturism might do precisely that, get a power of attorney, so the SV would control disposition of the body, not relatives. Alcor seems to be paralyzed in internal strife for years, incapable of any progress. It seems that periodically kicking out their CEO is enough of progress for them. So it is about time that someone outside is doing something innovative. I hope CI would have a similar initiative. It is needed. Here is an excerpt from David Pizer’s message from CryoNet mailing list:

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:33:35 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer <pizerdavid@***.com>
Subject: Protection for cryonicists

The following is written in an informal style. It is the very early stage of
opening a discussion to the cryonics community to solicit your ideas,
suggestions and expertise in the matter of its subject.

The Venturists Directors have been considering allowing the Society for
Venturism to hold power of attorney from cryonicists (for those cryonicists who
want to give it) to act on their behalf should they ever get in a similar
situation as some past cryonicists have found themselves in - mainly where
non-cryoncists or anti-cryoncists have legal control of their body...
____________________________________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2009 01:04PM by The Anticult.

there are also some very extreme possible dangers for children and the elderly in the cryonics delusion.
For example, below is a quote of some very disturbing text from the Imminst.org website.

Again, there is no "patient" in "cryonics". A corpse is not a patient, notice how they use those words to manipulate people minds. Their language is full of distortions like that.

Then there is something written below by 3 different cryonics supporters, which goes so far over the line its almost unbelievable.

Someone has written, that the PERFECT cryonics "patient" is a living healthy 10 year old child?
So they are saying a perfect cryonics procedure is the murder of a 10 year old child on a table by lethal-injection?
How could someone write something like that? Or even think it?
Killing a human from a plan is first degree murder.

What if a disturbed person, lured into this insane delusion of "cryonics" did something horrible like this?
There already is the Dora Kent case, are there others too?
If euthanasia is combined with the cryonics religion, people could get killed. Combine the cryonics delusion with the insane greed of inheritance, and what do you get?
What if they don't want to wait around for 5 years for grandma to pass away?

How can a person post something like that about killing a 10 year old child?
If people are willing to post that kind of madness in the open, what is happening in secret?
This has crossed the line from a strange fringe curiosity, into something much more delusional, dangerous, and even lethal.
What if someone like Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate, was running a fringe "cryonics" religious group, which included families and children?

If a family member is getting deeply involved with any of these cryonic religions, then the coroner is going to have to be involved when they die. Notice how the cryonics groups are all anti-coroner. Why is that?


_____________________
Warning for All Cryonicists
[www.imminst.org]
[www.imminst.org]
QUOTE (Putz @ 1-Feb 2009, 12:30 AM)

The perfect cryonics patient is a healthy ten year old who can walk into the lab and lie down on the table before the procedure. The rest of us have to take our chances, especially because almost everyone who lives long enough develops circulatory problems which interfere with getting a good perfusion of cryoprotectants through the brain.
....
I'm just thinking theoretically, optimally, shouldn't the body be fully grown but not aging yet, around 21-25 years old, before it is cryopreserved? I know future technology would probably allow for a normal life for a 10 year old but I'm speculating on the problems associated with death and stopping body and brain growth suddenly at 10 yrs old.
...
According to the actuarial tables, the probability of death reaches its lowest figure for ten year olds. I've read the claim that if you could stabilize a child's physiology at that age, barring a misadventure he or she could theoretically live for several centuries in good health, kind of like the Lost Boys in the Peter Pan stories who never enter puberty.
______________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2009 02:13PM by The Anticult.

There is a movement starting to make "cryonics" illegal in some countries. When you really look into it, it does seem the only reasonable way to move forward is to make "cryonics" illegal, or at least very highly regulated and monitored.
If at some future time, if a mammal can be frozen for years, and then brought back alive, then it can be debated in government if it could be considered for humans.

But until then, due to the myriad serious abuses, it should be made illegal, or highly regulated.
There is some text out there from the Canadian province of British Columbia where "cryonics" is illegal?
It seems these folks have thought it through, and realize "cryonics" has to be banned. That is the logical conclusion when one looks at the evidence at this time.

_________________________________
"No person shall offer for sale or sell any arrangement for the preservation or storage of human remains based on cryonics, irradiation or any other means of preservation or storage, by whatever name called, that is offered or sold on the expectation of the resuscitation of human remains at a future time."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2009 02:37PM by The Anticult.

There is another major personality in the cryonics business/religion by the name of Ben Best, who is the President of the Cryonics Institute Cemetery.
Religion?
It seems the Cryonics Institute was forced to regulate as a cemetery, so in this case, it literally is a type of fringe Neo-Pagan Sci-Fi religion, very much like the Egyptians, who also had mummies made, and also put aside their wealth for the mummy for its eternal-life.
The Cryonics Institute is functionally the same thing, frozen mummification, and material wealth in the form of cash-money.
The Egyptians also mutilated the human corpse, removed its organs, and did their process which they believed would preserve the body. The irony is that the Egyptian mummies are still here, thousands of years later, whereas the frozen cryonic mummies are not going to last more than a few decades, if only due to the chaos in these companies. Some of these companies already collapsed, and they had to ship some corpses to Alcor. No one knows which frozen mummies are even still there or intact, they keep that hidden.

What is interesting, is that the Pharaoh's mummies wealth in the tombs in Egypt, was IMMEDIATELY ROBBED, often from the very priests and people who put them in there. They had to murder anyone who knew where the wealth was buried, to try and keep the crooks out. But basically every tomb was robbed almost instantly.

Nowadays, the mummy robbing is much more organized. The pre-frozen mummy signs a huge pile of documents that have to be notarized and witnessed, and then just hands its wealth over to the board running the cemetery for frozen mummies, and then they can do whatever they want, as they see fit. Its their money, not the frozen mummies.

Without looking it up yet, one wonders if the name Ben Best is also one of those bogus Extropian names, like Max More and Mark Plus? We'll see.
And there are some very long term members of Alcor, who have been promoting Alcor for many years on the internet. For example, someone posting under the name Mark Plus lists themselves as Alcor member A-1257 from November 1991. So someone who has been with Alcor for almost 20 years, and who appears to earn their living working for someone who runs a Church/Society of Venturism which is associated with Alcor, that is a gross conflict of interest. That is like Tom Cruise handing out Scientology pamphlets.

But Ben Best is the master of pseudoscience, and the old...baffle them with bullshit method.
Its quite complex, from a financial and technical point of view.

But no question, at the root is a type of cult-like mindset, which rejects science, and demands a type of blind faith. They even appear to wear cryonics bracelets, and some write how they ONLY will marry a fellow cryonicist, it goes on and on.
Due to the FACT that there is no such thing in science as "cryonics", the entire enterprise falls into the area of new religious movement.
It this sense, its similar to aspects of Scientology, in that the bogus Scientology E-meter is also rejected by science, yet Scientologists "believe" in it.
Its the same with "cryonics" which is also not a part of science.
Its blind faith in cryonics.

But that blind faith in cryonics is used to exploit people financially through the fear of death. That is obvious as they offer and promote cryonics for PETS, which obviously is just a cash-grab from grief.

The whole other area though, is the massive and growing "anti-aging" field. Notice how David Pizer says above he would prefer an anti-aging pill. Guess who is selling countless anti-aging products? All the same people.

So they make a killing selling bogus quackery in the anti-aging market, and then hope to get a windfall from the cryonics swindle.

Another area is how they handle critics, its all vicious personal attacks, which again is very typical of the cultic mindset. They go for the personal attack, to try to deflect from the facts.

If you read some of the horrors being done to these bodies, done by untrained people like "golf pro's and warehouse workers" to the point where visible air-bubbles are being injected into the bodies, heads cut off and shaved, and holes drilled into people's skulls...and way beyond that.

Is there a cultic movement in the world today which is warehousing the dead bodies of their own people in this manner?

Its frankly amazing how these cryonics groups have been able to position themselves under the radar until recently.

Could you imagine the response if groups like Scientology or the Raelians, were grooming and persuading their members to sign the ownership/beneficiary of their multimillion dollar life insurance policies over to Scientology, and also to donate their dead bodies to Scientology for "research"?
And then Scientology was engaged in draining the blood out of the body, cutting the heads off their corpses, drilling holes in the heads and doing other invasive "procedures" on the corpse, and then storing the frozen dead bodies in vats in secret Scientology owned warehouses?

If Scientology was formed a few decades later, L Ron Hubbard could have gone down this route (with a different belief structure) , as it appears to be the supreme method of getting complete dedication from those involved in the group, as the group literally owns the person's body after death, and all the insurance/assets they can convince the person to sign over.

This may happen with some of these cryonics groups. But they would have to do it through a front-group, due to the PR problems, and the way to do that is to create compaines that appear independent, but are controlled behind the scenes by a majority of Directors, which is easy to do.

Give some of these cryonics groups another 10-20 years, especially any associated with the Church/Society of Venturism, and they could easily become the equivalent of Scientology Cryonics Inc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2009 02:35PM by The Anticult.