Cryonics, Venturism, Alcor, Transhumanist Church, Mike Perry
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 05, 2009 04:57AM
Below are some excerpts of talk about the launching of a Church of Transhumanism Cryonics, before it get's deleted, as they have tried to suppress the connections to forming a church/religion. They are very aware of the cult-like aspects of what they are doing, and those perceptions.
You can see in real time, as they persuade people to NOT use the word "Church" and move to new words, eventually to using the word "Society". This is the same process of the Church of Venturism changing to the Society of Venturism, which is deeply fused with Alcor, and seems to control Alcor behind the scenes.
Take note of the comments by Mike Perry from Alcor/Venturism.
This is the linguistic propaganda of memes, meant to disguise their religous beliefs behind a more neutral sounding terminology for the public.
These folks are very conscious about the ENGINEERING OF MEMES in the public mind. This is why they post their Cryonics Talking Points, every chance they get.
So some of them are highly skilled in manipulating the memes/ideas they are putting into people's minds, which is related to Thought Reform in groups and cults.
They are doing it very consciously and with precision, they even designed a cryonic Pascal's Wager.
So what reads to the trained eye as cryonic propaganda, is their injection of their engineered cryonic meme into the minds of those they can reach.
________________________________________________________
[www.imminst.org]
Launch of New Transhumanist Church Website
23-May 2004, 02:45 PM Post #1
Threadstarter
I am very pleased to announce the launch of the new Transhumanist
Church website at [www.transhumanistchurch.org] . There are many
new and exciting features at our website that I invite you to explore
and make use of. From our mailing lists to our articles section, you
will find a wide range of discussions concerning the aspects of our
beliefs. Over the coming weeks and months many new features will be
added, bringing even more information and services to our members. If
you have never visited the Transhumanist Church's website before,
or haven't given us a look in a while, I encourage you to check us
out. After all, it's everyone's eternal future we are fighting for!
Live well, live forever!
Tripper McCarthy
President – Transhumanist Church
www.transhumanistchurch.org
*********************
The above content is pretty nice stuff, but that doesn't matter because you're taking the religion path. No one is going to read it with an open mind, and certainly none of the opinion-makers in the media are going to see you as anything other than a cultist. It's hard enough to get them to take transhumanism itself seriously without this sort of handicap.
If a transhumanism group calls itself a church and gets any sort of media attention while positioning itself as a religion (which neither Virus nor Venturism have really achieved, thankfully) then we all get painted as cultists, no better than the Raelians. By extension, anything we talk about or advocate is also prejudiced in the minds of the masses.
While I appreciate the arguments for long term memetic engineering via religion, so long as you are positioning yourself in this way, any success you achieve will greatly damage the credibility and efforts made by all other transhumanist groups. The long term doesn't matter if we all die because [life extension = cultish activity ~ UFOs ~ strange, impossible things] becomes a dominant meme in the short term.
Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
[www.longevitymeme.org]
**************************************
26-May 2004, 10:42 PM Post #5
Responses:
“none of the opinion-makers in the media are going to see you as anything other than a cultist”
Every group with radically different ideas starts off basically being seen as a “cult” (in the negative sense) and a disruptive force. People are threatened by things different than themselves and respond by dismissive ridicule. Look at the treatment Alcor and other cryonics institutions received in the early days (and still do). Thank god they didn’t heed your warning and go away, or we would all (cryonauts) be worse off.
“If a transhumanism group calls itself a church and gets any sort of media attention while positioning itself as a religion (which neither Virus nor Venturism have really achieved, thankfully) then we all get painted as cultists, no better than the Raelians. By extension, anything we talk about or advocate is also prejudiced in the minds of the masses”
It already is prejudiced in the “minds of the masses” for a million different reasons. If you believe you will ever get a fair, unprejudiced hearing, I think you are being a bit naïve. Besides, those people that link your organization with ours, and call us all a bunch of cultists, were probably predisposed to make that judgment anyway for whatever reason seemed convenient.
“any success you achieve will greatly damage the credibility and efforts made by all other transhumanist groups”
If they can’t survive in the sea of ideas on their own merit, they shouldn’t blame others for their lacking.
“isn't a religion a set of beliefs directed towards a certain ends”
Well said. I bet if I labeled the Transhumanist Church a philosophical organization, a lot of these negative reactions would fade away. People are so afraid of the “R” word. But guess what, most people on this planet belong to a religion. Wouldn’t you want a religion that preaches humanist and transhumanist ideas instead of one stepped in mysticism and supernaturalism with intolerant and inflexible dogma?
...
I’m sorry if the idea of a Transhumanist Church upsets some, but there is clearly interest in the idea. And as long as there is, we will be around pursuing our own agenda. I sincerely hope that we can all “get along” and be respective of each other’s beliefs and opinions. We will never all agree, but then again this world would be a pretty stagnant place if we did.
Tripper McCarthy
President – Transhumanist Church
www.transhumanistchurch.org
**********************************
I definitely have respect for you and your initiative, I'm just trying to have some positive criticism here. The manner in which this "church" functions seems much better than the way the archaic inflexible institutions of today function. However you may want to think about renaming it instead of calling it a church with all the baggage associated with that word and implied meaning that people might first think of. Consider calling it something else rather than a church, this would not be a radical change on your part and may be to your advantage.
*****************************
I agree completely church has connotations that may damage the transhumanist meme, because that's exactly what it is a meme. How about Transhumanist Meme center! Something like that, I am a member and proud to be a member but I agree on your points
***************************
27-May 2004, 03:24 PM Post #9
My feeling is that, yes, there will be problems with using the term "Church" and calling your movement a religion, but it should be attempted. Many people think "religion" necessarily means fantasies about spirits or some such irrational belief system. I think that most seriously misses the point, however, and I am not alone. You can see what I mean by doing a Google search on "definition of religion." A definition of my own that reflects this different and (to me) more enlightened and positive view is: "A religion is a body of attitudes, beliefs, and practices whose intended purpose is a meaningful engagement with what can reasonably be regarded as having transcendent or ultimate significance." I won't say this is unobjectionable--refinements and/or other adjustments may be in order--but it seems a reasonable start. I also think that modern, scientific immortalism opens new, exciting possibilities in the field of non-supernatural religion, and that is a major theme we are trying to develop in the Transhumanist Church. It amounts to a tremendous, new, scientific, gospel, something that I think can hold its own with and ultimately outpoint its less scientific precursors, which many people think comprise the whole of "religion." We need to do this. For we are addressing what is of deepest significance, and what, I think, will determine in the end whether the life that has evolved on planet Earth goes on indefinitely or self-destructs. Science may possibly supply the means to become immortal but by itself cannot accomplish the task. You also need motivation, and not just light or transient, but the kind that can span eternity and sustain an infinite commitment--that is what religion is really about.
Mike Perry
Secretary,
Transhumanist Church and also Society for Venturism
**************************
I think you should take the excellent advice offered here to rename your organization/website to something that doesn't include the word "religion." You may not be aware of it, but the Society for Venturism was originally established as the Church of Venturism, but then changed its name for the very same reasons being discussed here.
If you want to get people thinking about the future of humans and technology in a more open-minded way, great. But don't mess with their religion by proposing you have something better.
---BrianW
*************************
28-May 2004, 10:29 PM Post #11
My previous response was directed at Tripper, and written before I noticed that the message just before mine was in fact written by Mike Perry (cofounder of the Society for Venturism) not Tripper. Far be it from me to tell Mike the reasons he changed "Church" to "Society" in his organization name. Though in my recollection it was in response to concerns that "Church" would be misunderstood.
All I can say is what I've always said: It's easier to sell a philosophy than a religion. Religion occupies a special compartment of the human mind that people don't like challenged or messed with. Just because some people have a secular philosophy plugged into their religion compartment doesn't mean the religion compartment of others is the best target for that philosophy-- especially when secular philosophies by nature can easily fit in other compartments that need not conflict with religion.
Over the course of abundant time and generations, it's quite possible that secular philosophies will eventually displace supernatural philosophies from the religion compartment of most people. But that's a very threatening prospect to supernaturalists, so to force the issue at this time and place in history (USA, 2004) risks unnecessary backlash against the goals of transhumanists generally.
In short, a Transhumanist "Church" seems like a surefire way to annoy both transhumanists and Christians alike.
---BrianW
****************************
The issue has been brought up that once the Venturist organization was also called a church, but that this was changed (to the present title of Society for Venturism). This came about from pressure from the transhumanist camp of that day (late 1980s), particularly cryonicists. Indeed, much the same objections were raised then as now. I came to favor the change myself but do not favor it now, in part because, while the Venturist society is an umbrella organization accommodating many points of view under the broad groupings of cryonics and (if suitably understood) religion, the Transhumanist Church is more specialized. I happen to favor this specialization personally, but many cryonicists, including some notable instances among the Venturists, will not. So Religious Transhumanism, aside from any terminological issues, will not appeal to everyone, but for some of us the appeal will be powerful and the terminology appropriate.
--Mike Perry
************************************
It's unfortunate that you don't agree with my view that you should not use "church" in the name of your group/organization/religion. It will be a detriment to your goals in my opinion, I'm far too immature in my knowledge of Transhumanism in it's various forms to argue deeply into this, but I don't think it would be in the nature of Transhumanism to be associated with the institution of organized religion. Transhumanism may indeed by a religion in some form, but the word church implies a place of worship and it's generally associated with Christianity. Give the name more thought if anything, a name is like a first impression while it's fallacious to base your view on a first impression many people do, inherently. The stigma or association people may have with the word "church" could drive them away at first sight.
***************************
3-Jun 2004, 12:36 AM Post #19
Group: Registered User
Threadstarter
After thinking about several of the messages posted here, especially Brian’s, I now agree that the Transhumanist Church is due for a name change. ...
I now support Mike’s suggestion to change the name of our organization to the ‘Church of Aionism’. Both he and Brian have laid out some convincing arguments as to why this name would be more suiting. We are currently discussing this change among our ‘Voters’ and I hope we will come to some resolution on this issue soon.
...
Tripper McCarthy
*********************
4-Jun 2004, 01:40 PM Post #23
From: San Diego, CA
I believe that "Society for Universal Immortalism" is the best name overall.
1. It drops the word "church" and all of the connotations of
traditional dogma.
2. It drops the word "transhumanism". Since our ideas go beyond "orthodox" Transhumanism, it is better that we don't capitalize on their name and upset a large number of people in our "base". Also, Transhumanism is just a subset of our more encompasing ideas. Using the word probably doesn't adequetly or
fully discribe our views, I think.
3. It is very straightforward. No weird words.
4. The word "society" is very acceptable for a religious organization (i.e. Society of Friends - Quakers). It sounds non-threating and approachable.
...
****************************
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 05:06AM by The Anticult.
You can see in real time, as they persuade people to NOT use the word "Church" and move to new words, eventually to using the word "Society". This is the same process of the Church of Venturism changing to the Society of Venturism, which is deeply fused with Alcor, and seems to control Alcor behind the scenes.
Take note of the comments by Mike Perry from Alcor/Venturism.
This is the linguistic propaganda of memes, meant to disguise their religous beliefs behind a more neutral sounding terminology for the public.
These folks are very conscious about the ENGINEERING OF MEMES in the public mind. This is why they post their Cryonics Talking Points, every chance they get.
So some of them are highly skilled in manipulating the memes/ideas they are putting into people's minds, which is related to Thought Reform in groups and cults.
They are doing it very consciously and with precision, they even designed a cryonic Pascal's Wager.
So what reads to the trained eye as cryonic propaganda, is their injection of their engineered cryonic meme into the minds of those they can reach.
________________________________________________________
[www.imminst.org]
Launch of New Transhumanist Church Website
23-May 2004, 02:45 PM Post #1
Threadstarter
I am very pleased to announce the launch of the new Transhumanist
Church website at [www.transhumanistchurch.org] . There are many
new and exciting features at our website that I invite you to explore
and make use of. From our mailing lists to our articles section, you
will find a wide range of discussions concerning the aspects of our
beliefs. Over the coming weeks and months many new features will be
added, bringing even more information and services to our members. If
you have never visited the Transhumanist Church's website before,
or haven't given us a look in a while, I encourage you to check us
out. After all, it's everyone's eternal future we are fighting for!
Live well, live forever!
Tripper McCarthy
President – Transhumanist Church
www.transhumanistchurch.org
*********************
The above content is pretty nice stuff, but that doesn't matter because you're taking the religion path. No one is going to read it with an open mind, and certainly none of the opinion-makers in the media are going to see you as anything other than a cultist. It's hard enough to get them to take transhumanism itself seriously without this sort of handicap.
If a transhumanism group calls itself a church and gets any sort of media attention while positioning itself as a religion (which neither Virus nor Venturism have really achieved, thankfully) then we all get painted as cultists, no better than the Raelians. By extension, anything we talk about or advocate is also prejudiced in the minds of the masses.
While I appreciate the arguments for long term memetic engineering via religion, so long as you are positioning yourself in this way, any success you achieve will greatly damage the credibility and efforts made by all other transhumanist groups. The long term doesn't matter if we all die because [life extension = cultish activity ~ UFOs ~ strange, impossible things] becomes a dominant meme in the short term.
Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
[www.longevitymeme.org]
**************************************
26-May 2004, 10:42 PM Post #5
Responses:
“none of the opinion-makers in the media are going to see you as anything other than a cultist”
Every group with radically different ideas starts off basically being seen as a “cult” (in the negative sense) and a disruptive force. People are threatened by things different than themselves and respond by dismissive ridicule. Look at the treatment Alcor and other cryonics institutions received in the early days (and still do). Thank god they didn’t heed your warning and go away, or we would all (cryonauts) be worse off.
“If a transhumanism group calls itself a church and gets any sort of media attention while positioning itself as a religion (which neither Virus nor Venturism have really achieved, thankfully) then we all get painted as cultists, no better than the Raelians. By extension, anything we talk about or advocate is also prejudiced in the minds of the masses”
It already is prejudiced in the “minds of the masses” for a million different reasons. If you believe you will ever get a fair, unprejudiced hearing, I think you are being a bit naïve. Besides, those people that link your organization with ours, and call us all a bunch of cultists, were probably predisposed to make that judgment anyway for whatever reason seemed convenient.
“any success you achieve will greatly damage the credibility and efforts made by all other transhumanist groups”
If they can’t survive in the sea of ideas on their own merit, they shouldn’t blame others for their lacking.
“isn't a religion a set of beliefs directed towards a certain ends”
Well said. I bet if I labeled the Transhumanist Church a philosophical organization, a lot of these negative reactions would fade away. People are so afraid of the “R” word. But guess what, most people on this planet belong to a religion. Wouldn’t you want a religion that preaches humanist and transhumanist ideas instead of one stepped in mysticism and supernaturalism with intolerant and inflexible dogma?
...
I’m sorry if the idea of a Transhumanist Church upsets some, but there is clearly interest in the idea. And as long as there is, we will be around pursuing our own agenda. I sincerely hope that we can all “get along” and be respective of each other’s beliefs and opinions. We will never all agree, but then again this world would be a pretty stagnant place if we did.
Tripper McCarthy
President – Transhumanist Church
www.transhumanistchurch.org
**********************************
I definitely have respect for you and your initiative, I'm just trying to have some positive criticism here. The manner in which this "church" functions seems much better than the way the archaic inflexible institutions of today function. However you may want to think about renaming it instead of calling it a church with all the baggage associated with that word and implied meaning that people might first think of. Consider calling it something else rather than a church, this would not be a radical change on your part and may be to your advantage.
*****************************
I agree completely church has connotations that may damage the transhumanist meme, because that's exactly what it is a meme. How about Transhumanist Meme center! Something like that, I am a member and proud to be a member but I agree on your points
***************************
27-May 2004, 03:24 PM Post #9
My feeling is that, yes, there will be problems with using the term "Church" and calling your movement a religion, but it should be attempted. Many people think "religion" necessarily means fantasies about spirits or some such irrational belief system. I think that most seriously misses the point, however, and I am not alone. You can see what I mean by doing a Google search on "definition of religion." A definition of my own that reflects this different and (to me) more enlightened and positive view is: "A religion is a body of attitudes, beliefs, and practices whose intended purpose is a meaningful engagement with what can reasonably be regarded as having transcendent or ultimate significance." I won't say this is unobjectionable--refinements and/or other adjustments may be in order--but it seems a reasonable start. I also think that modern, scientific immortalism opens new, exciting possibilities in the field of non-supernatural religion, and that is a major theme we are trying to develop in the Transhumanist Church. It amounts to a tremendous, new, scientific, gospel, something that I think can hold its own with and ultimately outpoint its less scientific precursors, which many people think comprise the whole of "religion." We need to do this. For we are addressing what is of deepest significance, and what, I think, will determine in the end whether the life that has evolved on planet Earth goes on indefinitely or self-destructs. Science may possibly supply the means to become immortal but by itself cannot accomplish the task. You also need motivation, and not just light or transient, but the kind that can span eternity and sustain an infinite commitment--that is what religion is really about.
Mike Perry
Secretary,
Transhumanist Church and also Society for Venturism
**************************
I think you should take the excellent advice offered here to rename your organization/website to something that doesn't include the word "religion." You may not be aware of it, but the Society for Venturism was originally established as the Church of Venturism, but then changed its name for the very same reasons being discussed here.
If you want to get people thinking about the future of humans and technology in a more open-minded way, great. But don't mess with their religion by proposing you have something better.
---BrianW
*************************
28-May 2004, 10:29 PM Post #11
My previous response was directed at Tripper, and written before I noticed that the message just before mine was in fact written by Mike Perry (cofounder of the Society for Venturism) not Tripper. Far be it from me to tell Mike the reasons he changed "Church" to "Society" in his organization name. Though in my recollection it was in response to concerns that "Church" would be misunderstood.
All I can say is what I've always said: It's easier to sell a philosophy than a religion. Religion occupies a special compartment of the human mind that people don't like challenged or messed with. Just because some people have a secular philosophy plugged into their religion compartment doesn't mean the religion compartment of others is the best target for that philosophy-- especially when secular philosophies by nature can easily fit in other compartments that need not conflict with religion.
Over the course of abundant time and generations, it's quite possible that secular philosophies will eventually displace supernatural philosophies from the religion compartment of most people. But that's a very threatening prospect to supernaturalists, so to force the issue at this time and place in history (USA, 2004) risks unnecessary backlash against the goals of transhumanists generally.
In short, a Transhumanist "Church" seems like a surefire way to annoy both transhumanists and Christians alike.
---BrianW
****************************
The issue has been brought up that once the Venturist organization was also called a church, but that this was changed (to the present title of Society for Venturism). This came about from pressure from the transhumanist camp of that day (late 1980s), particularly cryonicists. Indeed, much the same objections were raised then as now. I came to favor the change myself but do not favor it now, in part because, while the Venturist society is an umbrella organization accommodating many points of view under the broad groupings of cryonics and (if suitably understood) religion, the Transhumanist Church is more specialized. I happen to favor this specialization personally, but many cryonicists, including some notable instances among the Venturists, will not. So Religious Transhumanism, aside from any terminological issues, will not appeal to everyone, but for some of us the appeal will be powerful and the terminology appropriate.
--Mike Perry
************************************
It's unfortunate that you don't agree with my view that you should not use "church" in the name of your group/organization/religion. It will be a detriment to your goals in my opinion, I'm far too immature in my knowledge of Transhumanism in it's various forms to argue deeply into this, but I don't think it would be in the nature of Transhumanism to be associated with the institution of organized religion. Transhumanism may indeed by a religion in some form, but the word church implies a place of worship and it's generally associated with Christianity. Give the name more thought if anything, a name is like a first impression while it's fallacious to base your view on a first impression many people do, inherently. The stigma or association people may have with the word "church" could drive them away at first sight.
***************************
3-Jun 2004, 12:36 AM Post #19
Group: Registered User
Threadstarter
After thinking about several of the messages posted here, especially Brian’s, I now agree that the Transhumanist Church is due for a name change. ...
I now support Mike’s suggestion to change the name of our organization to the ‘Church of Aionism’. Both he and Brian have laid out some convincing arguments as to why this name would be more suiting. We are currently discussing this change among our ‘Voters’ and I hope we will come to some resolution on this issue soon.
...
Tripper McCarthy
*********************
4-Jun 2004, 01:40 PM Post #23
From: San Diego, CA
I believe that "Society for Universal Immortalism" is the best name overall.
1. It drops the word "church" and all of the connotations of
traditional dogma.
2. It drops the word "transhumanism". Since our ideas go beyond "orthodox" Transhumanism, it is better that we don't capitalize on their name and upset a large number of people in our "base". Also, Transhumanism is just a subset of our more encompasing ideas. Using the word probably doesn't adequetly or
fully discribe our views, I think.
3. It is very straightforward. No weird words.
4. The word "society" is very acceptable for a religious organization (i.e. Society of Friends - Quakers). It sounds non-threating and approachable.
...
****************************
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 05:06AM by The Anticult.
Cryonics, David Pizer speaks of wars and terrorism, Ventureville
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 05, 2009 05:43AM
(below are some salient excerpts and QUOTES from David Pizer, notice the pre-frame of moving both of the cryonics orgs due to the THREAT of war and terrorism?
hmm, maybe a Ventureville Cryonics Creekside Preserve Lodge Health Spa & Resort, with a military-level secure compound is the best place? Hey, the land is there, and Mr. Pizer even has some for sale. What a coincidence, its fate.)
***********************
X-Message-Number: 28489
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: why is cryonics hard to sell
...
If those who put up the money to advertize cryonics can identify the small
group who might want to try cryonics but think it is too expensive and havn't
signed up yet, and if there is a way to market just to them without having to
spend money reaching those who are not in this group, and if that way could be
found, and if those who are in charge of cryonics at that time could then
create a message that would appeal to this small group, then a cost-effective
way to reach this group will have been found.
The good news is that this small group is probably growing and will probably
continue to slowly grow until Mankind does something to change their opinions
either way.
I think the danger for us cryonicists now is not only the slow growth rate,
but also the fact that Alcor's storage facility (and maybe CI's?) is in an
area that could be a target in upcoming wars and acts of terrorism. The one
thing that cryonics can do is work on moving the storage facility to a safer
place - rural but not remote.
David
*********************************
X-Message-Number: 29022
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:35:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Chance to move to Arizona
Hi Cryofriends
I have secured some land next to the Creekside Lodge in Mayer Arizona that I
am going to offer for sale. Cryonicists can get a special price on this
beautiful land which touches the Creekside Lodge's land on it's east side and
has wonderful creek frontage and on it's other borders is surrounded by
thousands of acres of federal land which will probably become a national
forest preserve.
Great highway access through the Creekside Lodge Preserve.
...
I am offering a special price to cryonics suspension members. I feel this is a
very good investment. I hope that we can create an area where we can live
close to one-another.
...
David Pizer
*******************************
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer
Subject: publicity for Keith Henson
I saw a post on Cryonet this morning for people to come be interviewed for Keith
Henson for television. I think this would be OK only if the people knew a lot
about the facts in the Henson case and could articulate his position (assuming
his position is an innocent one?). AND if the persons doing the interview were
presented as friends of Keith and did not present the idea that the cryonics
movement was supporting Keith's position of attacking the Scientologists.
David
*******************************
X-Message-Number: 29156
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:42:56 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer
Subject: cryonics religion might save your life
Can a religion save your life as a cryonicist?
If you think cryonics performed properly can save your life. Then you want it
performed as best possible. Having a medical examiner order an autopsy can
prevent cryonics from being done properly.
I believe both Alcor and CI have paperwork and a wallet or purse type card
that their members can carry that says that the member does not want autopsy
because of the member's religious belief against it.
The theme of religious belief may carry some legal weight to help people avoid
autopsy in some cases.
But if the medical examiner were to go one step further and ask what religion
this member belonged to that opposes autopsy, in the past there was no
officially approved cryonics type religion (approved by the U.S. gov.) until
about 15 years ago. At that time some of us cryonicts formed the Society for
Venturism as a religion and got it approved by the gov.
So in some cases belonging to the Society for Venturism may give some back up
to the cards many cryonicists carry saying they do not want autopsy on
religious grounds.
EXAMPLE: Medical Examiner says: I see he had a card asking for no autopsy on
religion grounds. What religion did Alcor or CI member Joe belong to?
Two possible answers:
1. None, we just made it up to try to prevent an autopsy.
2. He was a Venturist, a member of a religion approved by the U.S.
Government.
...
How can you become a Venturist?
If you are signed up and funded by Alcor or CI send and you agree with our two
principles (Try to end death with technology and try to do what is right),
then send us a letter saying you want to be a Venturist, call yourself a
Venturist, and you then are a Venturist.
David Pizer
The Society for Venturism
Mayer Arizona 86333
*******************************
X-Message-Number: 29609
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: Lack of proper marketing is the problem
Lack of proper marketing is a problem. Cryonics tries
to deliver the most desired product that mankind has
every wanted, an end to death.
Religions try to deliver the same product.
At present customers choose religions over cryonics
because those customers believe they have a better
chance of surviving death through religions then
cryonics. When they are convinced they will have a
better chance of surviving death through cryonics then
religions they will switch.
Religions guarantee they will provide survival from
death.
Cryonics guarantees nothing.
The guarantee of a product has a lot to do with which
one the customer will buy.
...
David Pizer
**********************************
X-Message-Number: 29618
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:24:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: follow up on ideas to increase membership in cryonics movemen...
...
But there is a way to promote cryonics and reduce the
risk to the specific company doing the promoting
somewhat. Rather than promote your company as most
companies do, (Ford, GM, Coca Cola, WalMart, etc),
Alcor and CI merely have to promote the *idea* of
cryonics. As the idea of cryonics becomes more
popular in the world each company (Alcor and CI) have
a 50% chance of getting any new business (because they
are the only two companies freezing and storing people
in a serious way at present).
So they don't say good things about themselves as a
company but they fund other organizations and
independent people who will say good things about the
concept of cryonics and or do things to make new
prospects want to opt for cryonics.
Probably the number one thing that Alcor and CI could
do would be to underwrite the cost of people writing
favorable books and articles about cryonics. Books,
TV plots, movies, anything that would promote cryonics
as a good thing and make more people want it.
Actually, Alcor and CI would not have to fund this
effort, a bunch of cryoncists could get together from
both groups and raise money and work together
independent from Alcor and CI to promote the concept
of cryonics.
David Pizer
**********************************
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 05:51AM by The Anticult.
hmm, maybe a Ventureville Cryonics Creekside Preserve Lodge Health Spa & Resort, with a military-level secure compound is the best place? Hey, the land is there, and Mr. Pizer even has some for sale. What a coincidence, its fate.)
***********************
X-Message-Number: 28489
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: why is cryonics hard to sell
...
If those who put up the money to advertize cryonics can identify the small
group who might want to try cryonics but think it is too expensive and havn't
signed up yet, and if there is a way to market just to them without having to
spend money reaching those who are not in this group, and if that way could be
found, and if those who are in charge of cryonics at that time could then
create a message that would appeal to this small group, then a cost-effective
way to reach this group will have been found.
The good news is that this small group is probably growing and will probably
continue to slowly grow until Mankind does something to change their opinions
either way.
I think the danger for us cryonicists now is not only the slow growth rate,
but also the fact that Alcor's storage facility (and maybe CI's?) is in an
area that could be a target in upcoming wars and acts of terrorism. The one
thing that cryonics can do is work on moving the storage facility to a safer
place - rural but not remote.
David
*********************************
X-Message-Number: 29022
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:35:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Chance to move to Arizona
Hi Cryofriends
I have secured some land next to the Creekside Lodge in Mayer Arizona that I
am going to offer for sale. Cryonicists can get a special price on this
beautiful land which touches the Creekside Lodge's land on it's east side and
has wonderful creek frontage and on it's other borders is surrounded by
thousands of acres of federal land which will probably become a national
forest preserve.
Great highway access through the Creekside Lodge Preserve.
...
I am offering a special price to cryonics suspension members. I feel this is a
very good investment. I hope that we can create an area where we can live
close to one-another.
...
David Pizer
*******************************
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 07:42:46 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer
Subject: publicity for Keith Henson
I saw a post on Cryonet this morning for people to come be interviewed for Keith
Henson for television. I think this would be OK only if the people knew a lot
about the facts in the Henson case and could articulate his position (assuming
his position is an innocent one?). AND if the persons doing the interview were
presented as friends of Keith and did not present the idea that the cryonics
movement was supporting Keith's position of attacking the Scientologists.
David
*******************************
X-Message-Number: 29156
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:42:56 -0800 (PST)
From: david pizer
Subject: cryonics religion might save your life
Can a religion save your life as a cryonicist?
If you think cryonics performed properly can save your life. Then you want it
performed as best possible. Having a medical examiner order an autopsy can
prevent cryonics from being done properly.
I believe both Alcor and CI have paperwork and a wallet or purse type card
that their members can carry that says that the member does not want autopsy
because of the member's religious belief against it.
The theme of religious belief may carry some legal weight to help people avoid
autopsy in some cases.
But if the medical examiner were to go one step further and ask what religion
this member belonged to that opposes autopsy, in the past there was no
officially approved cryonics type religion (approved by the U.S. gov.) until
about 15 years ago. At that time some of us cryonicts formed the Society for
Venturism as a religion and got it approved by the gov.
So in some cases belonging to the Society for Venturism may give some back up
to the cards many cryonicists carry saying they do not want autopsy on
religious grounds.
EXAMPLE: Medical Examiner says: I see he had a card asking for no autopsy on
religion grounds. What religion did Alcor or CI member Joe belong to?
Two possible answers:
1. None, we just made it up to try to prevent an autopsy.
2. He was a Venturist, a member of a religion approved by the U.S.
Government.
...
How can you become a Venturist?
If you are signed up and funded by Alcor or CI send and you agree with our two
principles (Try to end death with technology and try to do what is right),
then send us a letter saying you want to be a Venturist, call yourself a
Venturist, and you then are a Venturist.
David Pizer
The Society for Venturism
Mayer Arizona 86333
*******************************
X-Message-Number: 29609
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: Lack of proper marketing is the problem
Lack of proper marketing is a problem. Cryonics tries
to deliver the most desired product that mankind has
every wanted, an end to death.
Religions try to deliver the same product.
At present customers choose religions over cryonics
because those customers believe they have a better
chance of surviving death through religions then
cryonics. When they are convinced they will have a
better chance of surviving death through cryonics then
religions they will switch.
Religions guarantee they will provide survival from
death.
Cryonics guarantees nothing.
The guarantee of a product has a lot to do with which
one the customer will buy.
...
David Pizer
**********************************
X-Message-Number: 29618
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:24:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: david pizer
Subject: follow up on ideas to increase membership in cryonics movemen...
...
But there is a way to promote cryonics and reduce the
risk to the specific company doing the promoting
somewhat. Rather than promote your company as most
companies do, (Ford, GM, Coca Cola, WalMart, etc),
Alcor and CI merely have to promote the *idea* of
cryonics. As the idea of cryonics becomes more
popular in the world each company (Alcor and CI) have
a 50% chance of getting any new business (because they
are the only two companies freezing and storing people
in a serious way at present).
So they don't say good things about themselves as a
company but they fund other organizations and
independent people who will say good things about the
concept of cryonics and or do things to make new
prospects want to opt for cryonics.
Probably the number one thing that Alcor and CI could
do would be to underwrite the cost of people writing
favorable books and articles about cryonics. Books,
TV plots, movies, anything that would promote cryonics
as a good thing and make more people want it.
Actually, Alcor and CI would not have to fund this
effort, a bunch of cryoncists could get together from
both groups and raise money and work together
independent from Alcor and CI to promote the concept
of cryonics.
David Pizer
**********************************
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2009 05:51AM by The Anticult.
Re: Cryonics, Ventureville, survivalism, underground, Rajneeshpuram
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 05, 2009 06:41AM
another area where information needs to come out, is that the Ventureville idea appears to have gone underground, in more ways than one. There are whispers of building survivalist-style cryonics facilites literally underground, that are off-grid and totally self-contained.
They have also commented about how if they can gain influence by having a enough VOTERS who are cryonicists in a LOCAL COUNTY, then they can influence the local by-laws to block autopsies.
So that explains the desire to get a large number of cryonicists living in one small area in Arizona as "Arizona has laws that are favorable to cryonics".
This is the same principle as Rajneeshville (search Google for Rajneeshpuram) where followers of Rajneesh took over a town.
Religion is simply being used as a legal/emotional instrument to implement an ideology and to create a new Immortality sect, with cryonics being used as a powerful financial/psychological instrument.
Guess who gets to be the King?
excerpt QUOTE:
_________________________________________________
Message #13507
>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:54:48 -0700
>From: Peter Christiansen ****@earthlink.net
>Subject: Heaven at last
>
>For centuries theologians have serched for heaven. It appears Dave
> Pizer has found it at last and just an hour away from Phoenix.
Does this sound like heaven?
...
Another kind of beauty should be built into the facility. The beauty of safety. I would like to see those members who want it to be able to wear some type of device that would monitor their vital signs and if they got into trouble 24 hours a day, the device would signal the headquarters to send help. I don't know how to do this, does anyone out there? Is the technology available yet or soon?
I would also like to see a basic washout facility available to memebers of any cryonics society. So if a resident went down unexpectly, they could be washed out in a matter of minutes and waiting for their cryonics company to do a perfusion. This will involve a good repore with the coroner's office and perhaps some legal work. Arizona has laws that are favorable to cryonics and we need to see how to use them best for our members.
One project I would like to see worked on is where a cryonics patients had the legal right not to be subject to an autopsy. This might be something to work on in the future after we have more voting members in that county.
I would like to see people with EMT certificates living there also.
[...]THE GOOD PART = I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME OF THE CRYONICS COMMUNITY IN PLACE WITHIN 4 TO 5 YEARS FROM TODAY.
The third stage will be the building more for the use of the cryonics community. Free-standing houses and more moderate apartments. Spa. Pool? Exercise room. Meeting rooms (which can also generate income from non-cryonics companies that want to hold seminars for their executives etc.). Offices for cryonics workers to post our message on the internet and host other events. Do radio talk-shows and perhaps send members to do tv talk shows. A prining company to produce a magazine and books.
By this time we will have a feel for what type of annual net income the resort facility generates and I will have four separate ways (or combinations) to raise the last needed money for the third stage of construction: Sale of additional personal assets (which I will do if I then choose to move there on a permanent basis; borrow on the resort; raise money from the cryonics community in the form of investment or donations; or use annual profits from the resort without borrowing (that would probably only allow $200,000 to $400,000 a year for new construction - I want to go faster than that).
I am also open to other suggestions.
I will control the resort until I go into the tank. The Board of Directors for the Society for Venturism will control the cyronics community.
....
Dave Pizer
_______________________________________________
They have also commented about how if they can gain influence by having a enough VOTERS who are cryonicists in a LOCAL COUNTY, then they can influence the local by-laws to block autopsies.
So that explains the desire to get a large number of cryonicists living in one small area in Arizona as "Arizona has laws that are favorable to cryonics".
This is the same principle as Rajneeshville (search Google for Rajneeshpuram) where followers of Rajneesh took over a town.
Religion is simply being used as a legal/emotional instrument to implement an ideology and to create a new Immortality sect, with cryonics being used as a powerful financial/psychological instrument.
Guess who gets to be the King?
excerpt QUOTE:
_________________________________________________
Message #13507
>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:54:48 -0700
>From: Peter Christiansen ****@earthlink.net
>Subject: Heaven at last
>
>For centuries theologians have serched for heaven. It appears Dave
> Pizer has found it at last and just an hour away from Phoenix.
Does this sound like heaven?
...
Another kind of beauty should be built into the facility. The beauty of safety. I would like to see those members who want it to be able to wear some type of device that would monitor their vital signs and if they got into trouble 24 hours a day, the device would signal the headquarters to send help. I don't know how to do this, does anyone out there? Is the technology available yet or soon?
I would also like to see a basic washout facility available to memebers of any cryonics society. So if a resident went down unexpectly, they could be washed out in a matter of minutes and waiting for their cryonics company to do a perfusion. This will involve a good repore with the coroner's office and perhaps some legal work. Arizona has laws that are favorable to cryonics and we need to see how to use them best for our members.
One project I would like to see worked on is where a cryonics patients had the legal right not to be subject to an autopsy. This might be something to work on in the future after we have more voting members in that county.
I would like to see people with EMT certificates living there also.
[...]THE GOOD PART = I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME OF THE CRYONICS COMMUNITY IN PLACE WITHIN 4 TO 5 YEARS FROM TODAY.
The third stage will be the building more for the use of the cryonics community. Free-standing houses and more moderate apartments. Spa. Pool? Exercise room. Meeting rooms (which can also generate income from non-cryonics companies that want to hold seminars for their executives etc.). Offices for cryonics workers to post our message on the internet and host other events. Do radio talk-shows and perhaps send members to do tv talk shows. A prining company to produce a magazine and books.
By this time we will have a feel for what type of annual net income the resort facility generates and I will have four separate ways (or combinations) to raise the last needed money for the third stage of construction: Sale of additional personal assets (which I will do if I then choose to move there on a permanent basis; borrow on the resort; raise money from the cryonics community in the form of investment or donations; or use annual profits from the resort without borrowing (that would probably only allow $200,000 to $400,000 a year for new construction - I want to go faster than that).
I am also open to other suggestions.
I will control the resort until I go into the tank. The Board of Directors for the Society for Venturism will control the cyronics community.
....
Dave Pizer
_______________________________________________
Cryonics, Mike Darwin, Mathew Sullivan, Melody Maxim, Jordan Sparks
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 06, 2009 08:19AM
There are a few people in the cryonics movement who seem to be able to break out of the Cryonics Talking Points propaganda, but not many, and they are viciously attacked, and they try to silence them, which is typical.
Of course, there are a slew of people who are impervious to facts, and just want to propagate their cryonic memes, like Mike Darwin, Jordan Sparks (raging against regulation), etc.
Mathew Sullivan seems questionable at best, as he states things like...cryonics is not a religion... when in FACT, the main players in cryonics literally are running a registered religion, one they want to use to avoid autopsies, etc. For example, they try to recruit people into Venturism, as detailed in this thread, which was found with a few minutes research. They also try to conceal that from the public. So when you see someone like Mathew Sullivan openly stating something that is not factual, and is deceptive, it raises many questions. That shows a lack of intellectual honesty.
There is one message board that has some interesting information from time to time.
The Cold Filter
[www.network54.com]
Someone by the name of George made a good point...
"Two bonafide perfusionists participated in discussion here. Both of them voiced their concern over the quality of service and care. Both stated that in too many instances unqualified people caused massive embolism to patients. I think that at one point one of them expressed an opinion that all people in the dewars have damages that are probably beyond repair. I think it might not be an exaggeration, but the sad truth. All the criticism was not enough to make any change. There is more to proper suspension than to take for example $150,000 from people, freeze them and them let them soak in the boiling liquid nitrogen. ...Criticism is being shaken off more easily that a dog shakes off his flees. Larry Johnson is starting something. Even as I disagree with most of his activities, I hope that he succeeds in one of them, causing the development of appropriate standards and enforcement of them."
(of course the problem is that the cryonics people are fighting any new regulation, and the fact is people have donated their dead body under the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act, and thus the cryonics company can freeze-unfreeze, slice, dice, cut-up, and do experiments on the body, and even dispose of the body, as they see fit, within the law. This is something cryonics people fail to understand, as they have been deceived. Once you donate your LEGALLY DEAD body under that Act, "Body donation is not regulated through licensure and inspection by the federal government and most states", and they know this of course, which is why they can do what they want, and hire untrained people to do the butchery...I mean the cryonics. Its madness).
Another person posting there named Melody Maxim is making some interesting points. That being said, one has no idea of her views beyond the few recent posts on The Cold Filter.
But Melody Maxim is making some accurate comments about the gross incompetence of what is going on with the cryonics dead bodies, and the fact that non-professionals are being deployed, and they don't know what they are doing, (even within the cryonics quackery).
She makes one statement in frustration, but clearly what is being said is correct. The main business aspects of the cryonics business are controlled by very unsavory characters at best.
QUOTE by Melody Maxim:
"If you stay around cryonics long enough, you'll learn that what you have to deal with is mostly liars, conmen and overgrown adolescents wanting to "play doctor" who are willing to take advice from anyone who will play along and assure them they are capable of performing a successful cryopreservation".
You don't even have to be around cryonics very long to see that, and worse!
It makes one think, how much does the actual "treatment" Alcor and Cryonics Institute do, actually cost?
There is no way in hell it costs $100K-$150K. That is obviously absurd.
As has been shown, they use non-medical people to do their corpse stuff. It would be interesting to actually add up all the costs for what they do, it might amount to $10,000 max, in real costs?
Its not that expensive to do what they are doing, they are not paying top neurosurgeons $1,000 an hour, lets get real.
So this is what has drawn the professional SALESMEN like a David Pizer into the cryonics business. he is a businessman, and appears to be part of a family owned car upholstery shop? (see below). They know MASSIVE profit-margins when they see them, especially connected to tax-free religions, ability to buy/sell/develop land, capital gains exemptions, write-downs, etc. (if you want to get rich quicker, start a religion, its a gold mine, Venturism is a cryonics religion).
It could be that the profit-margin for a cryonics freezing is well over 500%. Even if it cost 20K total, and they charged 150K, that is 700%. That does not include all of the other financial schemes they are running on top of this, like with the trusts.
So the actual cost is something that needs to be figured out by honest people.
Why do they charge what they charge? Because that is how much life-insurance pays-out with a small monthly payment. Its marketing, all they have to do is convince people to pay $30-40 a month, to start, and then they start the upselling process.
The bottom line is the few main players in the business of cryonics, see it as a business opportunity to possibly become the worlds first cryonics billionaires. If they can make it into a Baby Boomer trend, and take a bit of the funeral business, they can make a fortune in that niche.
If they can find a few guys who are superrich, who turn over millions/billions to them at death, then they are set. That clearly is the ultimate goal, to build multibillion dollar cryonics companies, which are controlled by groups like the Church of Venturism, and tax-exempt religions. Its the same model as Scientology, and all these other sects.
Its amazing that more people in the cryonics biz refuse to see that reality, they are just blinded by their beliefs and close their minds to the facts. Of course, the guys running it make a very serious effort to conceal that reality, as one can see in their own writings.
Below is a public listing from Cortera Business Research Reports, of course it may not be accurate.
________________________________________
[start.cortera.com]
PIZER FAMILY INVESTMENTS INC is in the Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops industry in PHOENIX, AZ. This company currently has approximately 10 to 20 employees and annual sales of $500,000 to $999,999.
Contact Information
***** N CAVE CREEK RD
PHOENIX, AZ
Key Facts
Location Type: Single Location
Industry: Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops
Year Founded: 1992
Sales Range: $500,000 to $999,999
Employees: 10 to 20
People at this Company
Name Title
DAVID PIZER PRESIDENT
_________________________________
Of course, there are a slew of people who are impervious to facts, and just want to propagate their cryonic memes, like Mike Darwin, Jordan Sparks (raging against regulation), etc.
Mathew Sullivan seems questionable at best, as he states things like...cryonics is not a religion... when in FACT, the main players in cryonics literally are running a registered religion, one they want to use to avoid autopsies, etc. For example, they try to recruit people into Venturism, as detailed in this thread, which was found with a few minutes research. They also try to conceal that from the public. So when you see someone like Mathew Sullivan openly stating something that is not factual, and is deceptive, it raises many questions. That shows a lack of intellectual honesty.
There is one message board that has some interesting information from time to time.
The Cold Filter
[www.network54.com]
Someone by the name of George made a good point...
"Two bonafide perfusionists participated in discussion here. Both of them voiced their concern over the quality of service and care. Both stated that in too many instances unqualified people caused massive embolism to patients. I think that at one point one of them expressed an opinion that all people in the dewars have damages that are probably beyond repair. I think it might not be an exaggeration, but the sad truth. All the criticism was not enough to make any change. There is more to proper suspension than to take for example $150,000 from people, freeze them and them let them soak in the boiling liquid nitrogen. ...Criticism is being shaken off more easily that a dog shakes off his flees. Larry Johnson is starting something. Even as I disagree with most of his activities, I hope that he succeeds in one of them, causing the development of appropriate standards and enforcement of them."
(of course the problem is that the cryonics people are fighting any new regulation, and the fact is people have donated their dead body under the Uniform Anatomical Gift Act, and thus the cryonics company can freeze-unfreeze, slice, dice, cut-up, and do experiments on the body, and even dispose of the body, as they see fit, within the law. This is something cryonics people fail to understand, as they have been deceived. Once you donate your LEGALLY DEAD body under that Act, "Body donation is not regulated through licensure and inspection by the federal government and most states", and they know this of course, which is why they can do what they want, and hire untrained people to do the butchery...I mean the cryonics. Its madness).
Another person posting there named Melody Maxim is making some interesting points. That being said, one has no idea of her views beyond the few recent posts on The Cold Filter.
But Melody Maxim is making some accurate comments about the gross incompetence of what is going on with the cryonics dead bodies, and the fact that non-professionals are being deployed, and they don't know what they are doing, (even within the cryonics quackery).
She makes one statement in frustration, but clearly what is being said is correct. The main business aspects of the cryonics business are controlled by very unsavory characters at best.
QUOTE by Melody Maxim:
"If you stay around cryonics long enough, you'll learn that what you have to deal with is mostly liars, conmen and overgrown adolescents wanting to "play doctor" who are willing to take advice from anyone who will play along and assure them they are capable of performing a successful cryopreservation".
You don't even have to be around cryonics very long to see that, and worse!
It makes one think, how much does the actual "treatment" Alcor and Cryonics Institute do, actually cost?
There is no way in hell it costs $100K-$150K. That is obviously absurd.
As has been shown, they use non-medical people to do their corpse stuff. It would be interesting to actually add up all the costs for what they do, it might amount to $10,000 max, in real costs?
Its not that expensive to do what they are doing, they are not paying top neurosurgeons $1,000 an hour, lets get real.
So this is what has drawn the professional SALESMEN like a David Pizer into the cryonics business. he is a businessman, and appears to be part of a family owned car upholstery shop? (see below). They know MASSIVE profit-margins when they see them, especially connected to tax-free religions, ability to buy/sell/develop land, capital gains exemptions, write-downs, etc. (if you want to get rich quicker, start a religion, its a gold mine, Venturism is a cryonics religion).
It could be that the profit-margin for a cryonics freezing is well over 500%. Even if it cost 20K total, and they charged 150K, that is 700%. That does not include all of the other financial schemes they are running on top of this, like with the trusts.
So the actual cost is something that needs to be figured out by honest people.
Why do they charge what they charge? Because that is how much life-insurance pays-out with a small monthly payment. Its marketing, all they have to do is convince people to pay $30-40 a month, to start, and then they start the upselling process.
The bottom line is the few main players in the business of cryonics, see it as a business opportunity to possibly become the worlds first cryonics billionaires. If they can make it into a Baby Boomer trend, and take a bit of the funeral business, they can make a fortune in that niche.
If they can find a few guys who are superrich, who turn over millions/billions to them at death, then they are set. That clearly is the ultimate goal, to build multibillion dollar cryonics companies, which are controlled by groups like the Church of Venturism, and tax-exempt religions. Its the same model as Scientology, and all these other sects.
Its amazing that more people in the cryonics biz refuse to see that reality, they are just blinded by their beliefs and close their minds to the facts. Of course, the guys running it make a very serious effort to conceal that reality, as one can see in their own writings.
Below is a public listing from Cortera Business Research Reports, of course it may not be accurate.
________________________________________
[start.cortera.com]
PIZER FAMILY INVESTMENTS INC is in the Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops industry in PHOENIX, AZ. This company currently has approximately 10 to 20 employees and annual sales of $500,000 to $999,999.
Contact Information
***** N CAVE CREEK RD
PHOENIX, AZ
Key Facts
Location Type: Single Location
Industry: Top, Body, and Upholstery Repair Shops and Paint Shops
Year Founded: 1992
Sales Range: $500,000 to $999,999
Employees: 10 to 20
People at this Company
Name Title
DAVID PIZER PRESIDENT
_________________________________
Re: Cryonics, Cult Movement or Ligit Science???
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: February 06, 2009 10:01AM
The Anticult, once again (and always) you blow me away. I have been subjected to the crap of several cults and cult-like movements, but you are like the Professor of Cults 401. Unbelievable (in a good way). I don't know what you do for a living, but if you were a deprogramer it would make sense. Thanks for all you do here on Rick Ross' sites. You are a vast treasure.
Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee, religion of frozen human corpses
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 06, 2009 02:37PM
and this has certainly not hit bottom yet.
The main players in the sale of cryonics are marketing with deceit and dishonesty, and doing it deliberately to try to gain more cryonics believers who are willing to sign their life/assets over to them. They have deliberately created "fictions" about the state of cryonics, and are pushing these in the media to try and grow their business.
One of the many cult-like tactics they have used, in an organized manner, is to viciously attack critics of cryonics. Not on factual issues, but just outright personal attacks.
If a person in cryonics finds something wrong and speaks out, they instantly begin to attack that person. Instead of dealing with the facts, they launch a personal attack, which is the most common tactic in these types of groups to DEFLECT and to make people fearful of speaking out.
In the Cold Filter forum, they talk about forcing cryonics employees to post bonds, and other methods to try and make them "keep their mouths shut". That is STANDARD PRACTICE in the cryonics game, forced non-disclosure, secrecy, and attacks against anyone who dares to speak out.
There is an example where Melody Maxim put forward some valid criticism, and Jordan Sparks replied:
"Fuck you, Melody. You are ruining what used to be a good forum. You are really pissing me off. Shut the hell up!!!!!!!!!"
Steve Harris responded to Jordan's remarks with this: "At least, the correct and proper response!"
That may sound like flaming, but its part of a deliberate pattern of verbal abuse from a core group of cryonics fanaticists. They launch personal attacks, and even threats it appears, as a strategy to beat down criticism. One assumes that some careful searching of their archives would reveal who invented that internet strategy as a method of trying to keep people in line. Obviously, the small core group of cryonics leaders decided to systematically attack their "enemies" and critics.
Further evidence is the bizarre cryonics attack group called The Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee. Notice that the Anti-Defamation label is further evidence that cryonics members see themselves as a RELIGION, which is what it is. It is factually a religion, with groups like the Church of Venturism.
What may be sending some of these people over the edge, is their RELIGIOUS BELIEF that the legally dead frozen human corpses are still "alive" and are "deanimated". They are NOT deanimated, they are NOT in "suspension" they are legally dead, and the liquid nitrogen has destroyed every cell in their body and brain.
The leaders in cryonics know that they are legally dead, and that is why they are unregulated, and why they control the body, and the assets. But they deliberately use word-warping to confuse cryonics believers by calling these former persons "patients" and "patient care". If a person religiously believes that the frozen legally dead person is "alive" then how are they going to behave and think?
There literally is a type of cult forming around these frozen dead bodies, and this is probably connected to the survivalist militia-style mindset and the "firearms" fetish displayed by the main cryonics believers. What is going to happen IF regulation gets passed, and then the coroner comes in to have a look at what is going on in there? Are the cryonicists going to physically allow that to happen? What if those frozen bodies were stored on a compound and "protected" by a troupe of firearm-toting cryonicists?
What if they have already moved some of the frozen bodies elsewhere, to a secret location? That is possible, and from their point of view would even make sense.
That is why there needs to be complete regulation of cryonics, and monitoring by the coroner. But one doubts that will happen, or even can happen, as the frozen bodies are legally dead, and have been donated for experiments. The cryonics believers have been duped.
They are exploiting these deep impulses in people, in the same way they are using the religious desire for immortality to try and sign people up for cryonics, which they hope will be a multi-billion dollar business.
There are also the examples of these disturbing letters below.
[www.freeted.com]
[www.freeted.com]
[www.freeted.com]
The main players in the sale of cryonics are marketing with deceit and dishonesty, and doing it deliberately to try to gain more cryonics believers who are willing to sign their life/assets over to them. They have deliberately created "fictions" about the state of cryonics, and are pushing these in the media to try and grow their business.
One of the many cult-like tactics they have used, in an organized manner, is to viciously attack critics of cryonics. Not on factual issues, but just outright personal attacks.
If a person in cryonics finds something wrong and speaks out, they instantly begin to attack that person. Instead of dealing with the facts, they launch a personal attack, which is the most common tactic in these types of groups to DEFLECT and to make people fearful of speaking out.
In the Cold Filter forum, they talk about forcing cryonics employees to post bonds, and other methods to try and make them "keep their mouths shut". That is STANDARD PRACTICE in the cryonics game, forced non-disclosure, secrecy, and attacks against anyone who dares to speak out.
There is an example where Melody Maxim put forward some valid criticism, and Jordan Sparks replied:
"Fuck you, Melody. You are ruining what used to be a good forum. You are really pissing me off. Shut the hell up!!!!!!!!!"
Steve Harris responded to Jordan's remarks with this: "At least, the correct and proper response!"
That may sound like flaming, but its part of a deliberate pattern of verbal abuse from a core group of cryonics fanaticists. They launch personal attacks, and even threats it appears, as a strategy to beat down criticism. One assumes that some careful searching of their archives would reveal who invented that internet strategy as a method of trying to keep people in line. Obviously, the small core group of cryonics leaders decided to systematically attack their "enemies" and critics.
Further evidence is the bizarre cryonics attack group called The Cryonics Anti-Defamation Committee. Notice that the Anti-Defamation label is further evidence that cryonics members see themselves as a RELIGION, which is what it is. It is factually a religion, with groups like the Church of Venturism.
What may be sending some of these people over the edge, is their RELIGIOUS BELIEF that the legally dead frozen human corpses are still "alive" and are "deanimated". They are NOT deanimated, they are NOT in "suspension" they are legally dead, and the liquid nitrogen has destroyed every cell in their body and brain.
The leaders in cryonics know that they are legally dead, and that is why they are unregulated, and why they control the body, and the assets. But they deliberately use word-warping to confuse cryonics believers by calling these former persons "patients" and "patient care". If a person religiously believes that the frozen legally dead person is "alive" then how are they going to behave and think?
There literally is a type of cult forming around these frozen dead bodies, and this is probably connected to the survivalist militia-style mindset and the "firearms" fetish displayed by the main cryonics believers. What is going to happen IF regulation gets passed, and then the coroner comes in to have a look at what is going on in there? Are the cryonicists going to physically allow that to happen? What if those frozen bodies were stored on a compound and "protected" by a troupe of firearm-toting cryonicists?
What if they have already moved some of the frozen bodies elsewhere, to a secret location? That is possible, and from their point of view would even make sense.
That is why there needs to be complete regulation of cryonics, and monitoring by the coroner. But one doubts that will happen, or even can happen, as the frozen bodies are legally dead, and have been donated for experiments. The cryonics believers have been duped.
They are exploiting these deep impulses in people, in the same way they are using the religious desire for immortality to try and sign people up for cryonics, which they hope will be a multi-billion dollar business.
There are also the examples of these disturbing letters below.
[www.freeted.com]
[www.freeted.com]
[www.freeted.com]
Alcor, Charles Platt, Cryonics Orwellian Newspeak, The Big Lie
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 06, 2009 11:58PM
Charles Platt is doing his job with attempts at understated viral advertising for Alcor.
(Interesting that Charles Platt seems to have been Alcor's COO for 3 months and then quit, followed by other COO/CEO's that also quit very quickly. Why are so many of these people quitting Alcor after they see what's behind the shiny iron curtain? Take a wild guess).
[boingboing.net]
There is a link to a fake cryonics site someone did for a joke, it looks great.
Borealis cryonics. [kurtmac.com]
The comments by most of the public to Charles Platt are quite healthy, and yet one can see some of the cryonics PR people using their Orwellian Newspeak, like "vitrified cryonic suspension" to try and fool people. No, they are not suspended, they are legally dead, and they are classified as a donated experimental specimen, and no one really knows, or can know, what is going on in there.
Just like in Star Trek they have a "warp drive" but in reality there is no such thing as a warp drive, and its probably impossible to warp space like that, even though it sounds good in fiction.
In Star Trek and sci-fi they also have cryonic suspension, but that also does not exist in reality, and might be impossible. Certainly after legal death, and complete cell destruction by the extreme cold of liquid nitrogen, the person is gone. They are as dead as anyone else. They are not suspended.
Its truly the amazing the Big Lie the cryonics companies are trying to get away with.
How different is this from the class of insane belief that sects like the "Order of the Solar Temple" [www.culteducation.com] or Heaven's Gate had?
Their leaders also told their people that "physical death is not death" and this lead to horrific chains of events.
This is not saying that cryonics is like the Solar Temple, but that the class of insane belief, that denies physical death, is very dangerous in the wrong hands.
When you add on top of this, the leaders of Venturism want to try to evade autopsies by using religion, and their insane belief that a "healthy 10 year old child is the perfect cryonics patient" who could be "put into suspension" after walking to the table? [forum.culteducation.com]
That would be first degree murder, and they post that, and not ONE cryonics believer objects? Can you imagine? Hundreds of cryonics believers read that, and not one informs the poster he is talking about the first degree murder of a child?
If they post that publically, what are they posting in the private groups? Maybe someone will post some of what they are saying in private too.
Even a thousand years from now, it will still be first degree murder to do that to a child.
And people helping adults do it, would be involved with the assisted suicide of a healthy person.
The insane thing about cryonics, is their belief states that they should want to die (be frozen) when they are in perfect health.
And the scary thing is, if they are able to evade an autopsy by the coroner, and the COMPANY collects millions on their death...
Why are the more intelligent moderate cryonics people so clueless on this?
(Interesting that Charles Platt seems to have been Alcor's COO for 3 months and then quit, followed by other COO/CEO's that also quit very quickly. Why are so many of these people quitting Alcor after they see what's behind the shiny iron curtain? Take a wild guess).
[boingboing.net]
There is a link to a fake cryonics site someone did for a joke, it looks great.
Borealis cryonics. [kurtmac.com]
The comments by most of the public to Charles Platt are quite healthy, and yet one can see some of the cryonics PR people using their Orwellian Newspeak, like "vitrified cryonic suspension" to try and fool people. No, they are not suspended, they are legally dead, and they are classified as a donated experimental specimen, and no one really knows, or can know, what is going on in there.
Just like in Star Trek they have a "warp drive" but in reality there is no such thing as a warp drive, and its probably impossible to warp space like that, even though it sounds good in fiction.
In Star Trek and sci-fi they also have cryonic suspension, but that also does not exist in reality, and might be impossible. Certainly after legal death, and complete cell destruction by the extreme cold of liquid nitrogen, the person is gone. They are as dead as anyone else. They are not suspended.
Its truly the amazing the Big Lie the cryonics companies are trying to get away with.
How different is this from the class of insane belief that sects like the "Order of the Solar Temple" [www.culteducation.com] or Heaven's Gate had?
Their leaders also told their people that "physical death is not death" and this lead to horrific chains of events.
This is not saying that cryonics is like the Solar Temple, but that the class of insane belief, that denies physical death, is very dangerous in the wrong hands.
When you add on top of this, the leaders of Venturism want to try to evade autopsies by using religion, and their insane belief that a "healthy 10 year old child is the perfect cryonics patient" who could be "put into suspension" after walking to the table? [forum.culteducation.com]
That would be first degree murder, and they post that, and not ONE cryonics believer objects? Can you imagine? Hundreds of cryonics believers read that, and not one informs the poster he is talking about the first degree murder of a child?
If they post that publically, what are they posting in the private groups? Maybe someone will post some of what they are saying in private too.
Even a thousand years from now, it will still be first degree murder to do that to a child.
And people helping adults do it, would be involved with the assisted suicide of a healthy person.
The insane thing about cryonics, is their belief states that they should want to die (be frozen) when they are in perfect health.
And the scary thing is, if they are able to evade an autopsy by the coroner, and the COMPANY collects millions on their death...
Why are the more intelligent moderate cryonics people so clueless on this?
Re: Alcor, did Mike Darwin do cryonic experiments on live dogs?
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 07, 2009 01:44AM
Some of the cryonics people are talking about how in Russia, they are moving forward with cryonics, with the financial support of some Oligarchs. What could happen in Russia with this is beyond imagining.
Also, there was an aside comment about a talk given by Mike "Darwin" Federowicz (President of Alcor Life Extension 1983-1988, Research Director 1988-1992, and "self-taught" Cerebral Ischemia-ist), and how he allegedly did cryonic experiments on dogs? Were these live dogs? As in, were dogs purchased, and then euthanized/killed, cryogenically frozen, and then tried to be revived? Or were they frozen alive? What happened?
If these cryonics experiments on dogs were carried out, where are the research papers, and where were they published?
Why doesn't anyone look into anything in cryonics?
Also, he says Mike Darwin has photos of the so-called rotting stinking corpses of failed cryonics bodies? Where were these people from? Where are the photos, are the names documented, or has it been covered up?
Mike Darwin also says that its a 90% chance of intact informational revival? That is complete utter nonsense. That is Big Lie advertising. Right now, the chance of cryonics working at all is 0%. Zero percent. There is no evidence any part of it works, especially in the brain. So the fact is scientifically cryonics sits at 0.00%, and he says its at 90%?
They set it best below...the cryonics business is full of con-men and crazies.
And its not a joke, its dangerous stuff.
______________________________________________
[www.imminst.org]
QUOTE:
8-Aug 2008, 12:13 PM Post #4
From: London
...
A micro-summary as I remember it, filtered through my own ignorance...
- The first people involved had no head for business and weren't
credentialed - just enthusiasts. That seems to be a recurring theme.
They over-promised and had no idea how to deliver nor even any
intention of personally trying. They wanted someone else to step in
and make it real.
- Mike got into it really early. He had been freezing turtles and
reviving them as a kid's science hobby. He read a cryonics story in
the paper. The industry was so small he got right in at the core just
by turning up.
- He learned on the job. Everybody was learning on the job. Nobody
knew anything about how to cool people quickly or how to store liquid
nitrogen. Serious mistakes were made. Storing people on their side or
head up was a stupid idea. Probably because people were thinking in
terms of "funeral" not "hospital".
- A lack of proper prior planning (and professionalism) resulted in
piss poor performance. People were being left dead and warm for far
too long. They were being allowed to cyclically warm up and re-freeze
in their tubes as the nitrogen boiled off. The guy who was supposed to
re-fill the tubes had a day job. Early publicity photos for "Life"
magazine were staged fakes, pretending a level of professionalism that
simply didn't exist.
- They created a scientific procedure for freezing someone. It was
actually quite good. They didn't follow it.
- The industry was full of crazies and con-men. The "ideas man" who
got it all started had no hesitation going on TV and endorsing them.
...
- It turned out that some patients had been stored in such an
appallingly lazy way (by a contractor charged with running storage)
that they were completely unrecoverable - stinking corpses. Mike
showed some horrific pictures, including people he had earlier helped
to freeze. Many pioneers were lost. (So much hope, so casually
destroyed! I was in shock seeing it.) This was a huge press scandal
and left a permanent taint on the industry's image.
- Meanwhile the actual science had been improving, In fact Mike took
some time off to do groundbreaking research himself, freezing and
reviving dogs. He says he shouldn't have done that.
...
- Even now, Alcor is ignoring medical advances and using sloppy
procedure. They are living hand-to-mouth on profits and don't have
anywhere near enough emergency savings. Their corporate management is
no good. They are paralyzed by caution.
- The Cryonics Institute are nice, capable, teachable people but they
have an impossibly small budget and staff, and no specialist skills,
nor any access to a talent pool for apprentice style learning. They
are doing their best. Rather than having a team at the bedside, they
rely on coaching a local mortician over the phone. They work in a
corner of the morgue and are not allowed to keep their stuff on-site.
What can you say?
- The situation in Russia looks really promising, because Russians
have a good rationalist attitude to immortality and cryonics, and they
don't suffer fools. Some big names in Russia are on-side. There is a
lot of money available from oligarchs.
...
- As of right now, if good modern scientific procedure were used and
used well, Mike estimates a 90% chance of intact informational
survival. Back in the beginning, it was more like 2%.
(I'm sure I mis-remembered some of that and left more out. If you see
a mistake or omission please correct me.)
_________________________________________________
Also, there was an aside comment about a talk given by Mike "Darwin" Federowicz (President of Alcor Life Extension 1983-1988, Research Director 1988-1992, and "self-taught" Cerebral Ischemia-ist), and how he allegedly did cryonic experiments on dogs? Were these live dogs? As in, were dogs purchased, and then euthanized/killed, cryogenically frozen, and then tried to be revived? Or were they frozen alive? What happened?
If these cryonics experiments on dogs were carried out, where are the research papers, and where were they published?
Why doesn't anyone look into anything in cryonics?
Also, he says Mike Darwin has photos of the so-called rotting stinking corpses of failed cryonics bodies? Where were these people from? Where are the photos, are the names documented, or has it been covered up?
Mike Darwin also says that its a 90% chance of intact informational revival? That is complete utter nonsense. That is Big Lie advertising. Right now, the chance of cryonics working at all is 0%. Zero percent. There is no evidence any part of it works, especially in the brain. So the fact is scientifically cryonics sits at 0.00%, and he says its at 90%?
They set it best below...the cryonics business is full of con-men and crazies.
And its not a joke, its dangerous stuff.
______________________________________________
[www.imminst.org]
QUOTE:
8-Aug 2008, 12:13 PM Post #4
From: London
...
A micro-summary as I remember it, filtered through my own ignorance...
- The first people involved had no head for business and weren't
credentialed - just enthusiasts. That seems to be a recurring theme.
They over-promised and had no idea how to deliver nor even any
intention of personally trying. They wanted someone else to step in
and make it real.
- Mike got into it really early. He had been freezing turtles and
reviving them as a kid's science hobby. He read a cryonics story in
the paper. The industry was so small he got right in at the core just
by turning up.
- He learned on the job. Everybody was learning on the job. Nobody
knew anything about how to cool people quickly or how to store liquid
nitrogen. Serious mistakes were made. Storing people on their side or
head up was a stupid idea. Probably because people were thinking in
terms of "funeral" not "hospital".
- A lack of proper prior planning (and professionalism) resulted in
piss poor performance. People were being left dead and warm for far
too long. They were being allowed to cyclically warm up and re-freeze
in their tubes as the nitrogen boiled off. The guy who was supposed to
re-fill the tubes had a day job. Early publicity photos for "Life"
magazine were staged fakes, pretending a level of professionalism that
simply didn't exist.
- They created a scientific procedure for freezing someone. It was
actually quite good. They didn't follow it.
- The industry was full of crazies and con-men. The "ideas man" who
got it all started had no hesitation going on TV and endorsing them.
...
- It turned out that some patients had been stored in such an
appallingly lazy way (by a contractor charged with running storage)
that they were completely unrecoverable - stinking corpses. Mike
showed some horrific pictures, including people he had earlier helped
to freeze. Many pioneers were lost. (So much hope, so casually
destroyed! I was in shock seeing it.) This was a huge press scandal
and left a permanent taint on the industry's image.
- Meanwhile the actual science had been improving, In fact Mike took
some time off to do groundbreaking research himself, freezing and
reviving dogs. He says he shouldn't have done that.
...
- Even now, Alcor is ignoring medical advances and using sloppy
procedure. They are living hand-to-mouth on profits and don't have
anywhere near enough emergency savings. Their corporate management is
no good. They are paralyzed by caution.
- The Cryonics Institute are nice, capable, teachable people but they
have an impossibly small budget and staff, and no specialist skills,
nor any access to a talent pool for apprentice style learning. They
are doing their best. Rather than having a team at the bedside, they
rely on coaching a local mortician over the phone. They work in a
corner of the morgue and are not allowed to keep their stuff on-site.
What can you say?
- The situation in Russia looks really promising, because Russians
have a good rationalist attitude to immortality and cryonics, and they
don't suffer fools. Some big names in Russia are on-side. There is a
lot of money available from oligarchs.
...
- As of right now, if good modern scientific procedure were used and
used well, Mike estimates a 90% chance of intact informational
survival. Back in the beginning, it was more like 2%.
(I'm sure I mis-remembered some of that and left more out. If you see
a mistake or omission please correct me.)
_________________________________________________
Alcor contract, "donated for research biological tissue"
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 07, 2009 06:11AM
apparently in the Alcor contract people sign, (its a huge thick contract which most people ain't gonna read in total), they use the words...
"donated for research biological tissue"
That's you.
The only legal protection for that, are things like not being able to sell tissue, and not being able to throw it in the garbage, etc. But that is donated biological research tissue, same as giving your body to a university, which slices the body up sometimes into countless pieces, and sends bits and pieces all over the place for various studies. They probably used FedEx containers! Its totally legal.
Of course Alcor and all the main cryonics people know this, which is why it is such a immoral fraud to call them "patients". You are not a patient anymore, sadly, you are donated research biological tissue.
There is no "patient care", its simply advertising word trickery, but read the fine print, the facts are in there.
So putting everything else aside, this displays how the financial trust products some cryonics people are promoting, are perfectly legal, but they are totally bogus.
Its a type of sales-trick.
They tell you that if you put a few hundred grand or more into a trust for "yourself" then it will be invested and used to care for "you", and given to you when you are unfrozen, and you will be as rich as Bill Gates!
(cryonics people know the 2 main guys promoting this bogus salespitch, and their conflict of interest in the matter).
Are people really that naive? Really?
What happens is the trust gets completely turned over to a cryonics company or "Society", and then they own it.
So its used for salaries, car leases, land buys, etc. Non-profits can hire their own board members as consultants, and they can earn market rate for their services. So they hire themselves. It happens all day everyday in the USA. Its totally legal.
So the financial trust sales-pitch, is simply you handing your money over to the control of the cryonics company or cryonics Society. Period. Its a free donation to them, for them to do whatever they want with, in the scope of the company. (read the fine print for that).
No one can force them to use it on "you" as you no longer exist. You're legally dead.
Maybe if your children had legal control of your frozen remains, then they could care for you, and watch out for you. But notice that these companies try to make your family into an ENEMY with fear tactics and horror stories. They will never allow family members to have any rights over the frozen remains of their dead relatives. They OWN your biological tissue, and they can use it as they wish, in total secrecy. Your children will never know if you are even still in a vat, or if you have been disposed of due to a system failure, or whatever. It must be very hard for people to have to deal with not knowing where their dead relative is for certain. For all they know, they may have been moved underground somewhere else. No one knows for sure, and the non-disclosure contracts and secrecy take care of that.
So think of the extreme cynicism being displayed in that deceptive marketing practice for the financial trusts.
That is bald-faced old school sales-chicanery.
That tells you the true motivations of those running that one. Anyone running that sort of financial pattern so brazenly is not to be trusted.
"donated for research biological tissue"
That's you.
The only legal protection for that, are things like not being able to sell tissue, and not being able to throw it in the garbage, etc. But that is donated biological research tissue, same as giving your body to a university, which slices the body up sometimes into countless pieces, and sends bits and pieces all over the place for various studies. They probably used FedEx containers! Its totally legal.
Of course Alcor and all the main cryonics people know this, which is why it is such a immoral fraud to call them "patients". You are not a patient anymore, sadly, you are donated research biological tissue.
There is no "patient care", its simply advertising word trickery, but read the fine print, the facts are in there.
So putting everything else aside, this displays how the financial trust products some cryonics people are promoting, are perfectly legal, but they are totally bogus.
Its a type of sales-trick.
They tell you that if you put a few hundred grand or more into a trust for "yourself" then it will be invested and used to care for "you", and given to you when you are unfrozen, and you will be as rich as Bill Gates!
(cryonics people know the 2 main guys promoting this bogus salespitch, and their conflict of interest in the matter).
Are people really that naive? Really?
What happens is the trust gets completely turned over to a cryonics company or "Society", and then they own it.
So its used for salaries, car leases, land buys, etc. Non-profits can hire their own board members as consultants, and they can earn market rate for their services. So they hire themselves. It happens all day everyday in the USA. Its totally legal.
So the financial trust sales-pitch, is simply you handing your money over to the control of the cryonics company or cryonics Society. Period. Its a free donation to them, for them to do whatever they want with, in the scope of the company. (read the fine print for that).
No one can force them to use it on "you" as you no longer exist. You're legally dead.
Maybe if your children had legal control of your frozen remains, then they could care for you, and watch out for you. But notice that these companies try to make your family into an ENEMY with fear tactics and horror stories. They will never allow family members to have any rights over the frozen remains of their dead relatives. They OWN your biological tissue, and they can use it as they wish, in total secrecy. Your children will never know if you are even still in a vat, or if you have been disposed of due to a system failure, or whatever. It must be very hard for people to have to deal with not knowing where their dead relative is for certain. For all they know, they may have been moved underground somewhere else. No one knows for sure, and the non-disclosure contracts and secrecy take care of that.
So think of the extreme cynicism being displayed in that deceptive marketing practice for the financial trusts.
That is bald-faced old school sales-chicanery.
That tells you the true motivations of those running that one. Anyone running that sort of financial pattern so brazenly is not to be trusted.
Re: Alcor contract, "donated for research biological tissue"
Posted by:
TWrelated
()
Date: February 07, 2009 02:17PM
Quote
The Anticult
apparently in the Alcor contract people sign, (its a huge thick contract which most people ain't gonna read in total)
Its only a few pages...
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