In response to Outsider

I don't know if the line "ignorance is bliss" was directed at me due to the nature of my post. As I have said in several posts I will say it as I see it. I do not like the DWB organization and do not seek to endorse it it any way. If I haven't witnessed some of the activities that people on this forum appear to have experience of then I will not fabricate falsehoods in order to discredit DWB.

That is not to say that I dismiss the accounts of others. I wish to view them as honest accounts of the experiences (albeit subjective, as are my own accounts). So I don't seek to dismiss your claims. I just add my own experiences to the forum. So if I'm not aware of this indoctrination of children then yes I am guilty of ignorance. But I assure you that I have looked long and hard at DWB and it's not out of a desire to remain ignorant that I haven't first hand experience of some of the accounts here.

In response to Suenam

Does DWB improve the people it attracts? I have no short answer to this. In my experience I would say I have seen several people really develop and benefit from their time at the centre I attended. Let's not forget that the methods of the Karma Kagyu as they have been handed down to us and if properly applied have (in my experience) a deep and lasting effect that has been a great benefit to me and others.

The people I saw develop had several things in common.

1. They were all deeply suspicious of Ole Nydahl.

2. From the things they witnessed at retreats like the Phowa courses in Karma Guen they concluded that they really didn't want to mix with the vast majority of people they saw behaving in a harmful way.

3. They all witnessed and were appalled by the racist views expressed by Nydahls followers and felt that this was somehow encouraged from the man at the top, Ole himself.

I think the development for myself (and I really do believe that meditation has changed my life) and other came from having a Sangha that had several bright, inquisitve, critical minds who debated Dharma in an open, trusting and friendly way.

It's coincidental that only last night I sat with one of my friends from the centre I attended and we sat for four hours and debated and discussed aspects of the teachings we were having difficulty with. Neither of us are authorities on Dharma yet we both benefited and felt we had learned something from the exchange. My friend, who still attends the centre, commented that he felt he could never have that level of discussion at the centre. He felt that the founders have their views and understandings of Dharma and this is driven into the group. No debate, no discourse, no openess, no honesty and no trust!!! He felt he could never challenge the authority of those who founded the group.

So do I think DWB helps people? It really depends on the people who populate the centres. If you go to the Manchester group I would say you wouldn't benefit at all unless you wanted to re-affirm you fears and suspicions about Islam and people of colour. I do not see Buddhism practiced in the Manchester group. Sure they sit around and meditate, practice Ngondro and so on, but if all you good impression are left on the meditation cushion then there is something fundamentally wrong.

So if you are reading this and tempted to attend a DWB centre please remain critical. Challenge the views of those who run the centres. Challenge the teachers and the teachings. I've heard so many travelling teachers give what seem like concise and clear answers to poeple dharma questions and really they are just regurgitating something Ole has said without really having critically examined it themselves. Very dangerous behavious in my opinion.

S

An interesting link:

[www.viewonbuddhism.org]

Also, the Diamond Way Truths blog seems to have been shut down. Is this due to repeated protests from DW cult members?

Since I left Diamond Way some 3 months ago I have noticed that I no longer receive any e-mails from them. I know from past experience that when someone stopped attending the Liverpool Centre that they were not removed from the mailing list and continued to receive notice of events and talks.

So when you consider I was an intrinsic part of the Liverpool Centre for nearly 7 years I think it's quite a statement of intent on DWB's behalf to immediately remove me from any mailing lists.

This appears to confirm that they are monitoring my posts!! And the speed at which I was removed from any mailing list was breathtaking. ;-)

It also shows a degree of paranoia on their behalf. I do admit that I didn't ask to be removed from mailing lists because I fully intended to use any information I received via them to discredit DWB. So your fears were/are well founded.

Are they so afraid of what I might reveal? Is this an acknowledgemt on their behalf that being too open will reveal some very unpleasant activity?

Recently a student approached the Liverpool Centre to ask the members if they would like to take part in a research project. The student wasn't wishing to expose anything unpleasant within DWB but wished to see how Buddhism was adapting to Western culture. It appears this set alarm bells ringing within the Liverpool Centre? The group had met with the student and all had shown an interest in taking part. This was before the questions had been presented to the leader.

By refusing the student access to the members of the centre, the leader of the group has effectively made decisions on behalf of the group. I know several members were happy to talk to the student (and have done so via me) but the leader has ruled over them and denied them the opportunity to take part.

This highlights an issue I made in an earlier post, that the leader feels in a postion to dictate to the centre members what they can and can't take part in. I recall him telling me that he felt he knows better that the practitioners themselves if they should practice Diamond Way methods. Such an ego. Such conceit.

So denying members the opportunity to take part, effectively throwing up a Firewall, not giving the group an chance to discuss if they might like to read the questions and decide for themselves reveals more cult behaviour.

The leaders of the Liverpool Centre control the flow of information deciding for the adults in the group what they can and cannot have access to.

It seems the questions that caused the most concern were related to heirarchical structures in DWB and the position of women within DWB.

As I mentioned earlier, in my conversations with the student he clearly explained he was only concerned with how Buddhism was being adapted to a Western lifestyle. He wasn't planning an damning critique of DWB. In a recent conversation the student revealed that he now has a sense of a group with a great deal to hide. The censorship, control and secrecy has given him the impression that something untoward is taking place within DWB.

It is for the impartial reader of these posts to investigate and decide for themselves.

I will once again stress that the people I had contact with at the Liverpool Centre, and a number of others in other centres, are decent, intelligent people. It is those in the power positions, the "leaders" of the Liverpool Centre who display cult behaviour.

If you wish to practice Buddhism then I urge you to avoid Diamond Way Buddhism.

S

Very insightful SteveLpool, Thanks.

Quote
SteveLpool

Are they so afraid of what I might reveal? Is this an acknowledgemt on their behalf that being too open will reveal some very unpleasant activity?

The leaders of the Liverpool Centre control the flow of information deciding for the adults in the group what they can and cannot have access to.

It seems the questions that caused the most concern were related to heirarchical structures in DWB and the position of women within DWB.

In a recent conversation the student revealed that he now has a sense of a group with a great deal to hide. The censorship, control and secrecy has given him the impression that something untoward is taking place within DWB.

(edited by me)



We have spoken much about what DWB may have to hide - and yet there is something here which may be taken at face value, which is the fact that they are behaving as if they are ashamed (an earlier post even indicated that this instruction to be insular came from Ole himself).

Of course - there may well be another reason for this secretive behaviour, and that is elitism - something which in itself is a shameful thing in this day and age, and which fits in very well with the issue of racism that we have discussed at length.

This also links in, not only to what Steve writes about the heirarchical structures within DWB, but also points to their relationship with the wider society (and this applies to DWB's relationship both with other Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and with other beings in general).

So, even if there was nothing untoward taking place within the organisation - this structure, and this behaviour is, in-itself something which causes concern.

Not only is it this idea of being superior, but also the arrogance that accompanies that, and which gives rise to certain phenomena which we have discussed; the censorship of and resistance to criticism, the implementation of their heirarchical viewpoint, the moral judgments pronounced on "inferior" races, the taking of liberties with "lesser" mortals, the lack of humility and promotion of egotisitc narcissism, etc.

In short, DWB promotes selfishness - the very antithesis of authentic Buddhist practice.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2010 10:17AM by suenam.

Here is the link to a few articles about Ole and the Diamond Way from a norwegian newspaper:

[www.morgenbladet.no]

I can't read norwegian though but maybe someone else here can?

from what i can make out from the first article - it seems to say that lama ole is not homophobic because he has a few gay and lesbian devotees, and it also claims that he is not racist just because he voices his concern about certain worrying trends in Islam.

this is the sort of spurious "reasoning" that i found to be rife in dwb, and is a symptom of a lack of critical thoroughness - it's like someone saying that they are clearly not a homophobe because they have a gay friend, and fails to take into account both the one-sidedness of the views expressed, and the impact of voicing such views from such a position.

to me this misses the point - lama ole does make sweeping generalisations and his "facts" are seriously skewed in favour of supporting his own viewpoint.

many people voice their concern about certain facets of Islam, including Moslems themselves, however, unlike lama ole, they refrain from using such inflammatory and condescending language to do so.

-----------------------------------------------

the article also makes the point, as SteveLpool did, that the teachings are Karma Kagyu, and that lama ole has the blessings of the 16th Karmapa.

in response to this, i would point out that DWB members seem to take a rather dim view of Karma Kagyu practitioners who are not DWB members, and that they also seem to take the same condescending view of Karma Kagyu practices that have not been "turbocharged" by lama ole's special treatment.

while it is true that some semblance of the core practices do exist in DWB, the added DWB baggage that one has to sift through in order to reach them would suggest that DWB is promoting more than just the Karma Kagyu lineage, to the detriment of those core teachings.

Pictures showing Ole Nydahl up to his old tricks:

[4.bp.blogspot.com]
[1.bp.blogspot.com]
[3.bp.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2010 01:32AM by ~*~ k a t e ~*~.

Why a supposedly Buddhist "lama" would want to be photographed with an automatic rifle is beyond my ability to comprehend. Having spent some time around the guy I can imagine his comments would be along the lines of "it has an excellent rate of fire", "it handles very well" and so on. Trying to throw some positive "spin" that everything is wonderful, even this potentially lethal device. I've seen this picture before. And of course my old "friends" from Diamond Way who are reading these posts will probably say that I'm "confused", that I found the methods too "challenging" and that Diamond Way wasn't right for me and that by not going giddy with delight at seeing Nydahl holding a gun that is down to my inability to hold the "pure view".

Once again it shows he has no idea what his organisation is like. I've heard of him making comments to students of his who are in the military that "if you must kill then do it without any anger". I sat with a fair cross-section of his students who do harbour a great deal of anger, be it towards muslims or various ethnic migrants. I consider it very dangerous to suggest to these people that it might be OK to kill someone as long as your not doing it out of anger? And as there is a definate "monkey see, monkey do" attitude I wouldn't be suprised if we discover some of his more unhinged students stockpiling arms!!! Anyone for another Wako?

The picture of him holding the gau up to the girls chest is nothing new. He does this with men and women. If you show a picture of him holding it to up to someones head (he touches people on the head, throat and "heart centre" when blessing them) it doesn't look so sensational. I don't see anything untoward in the picture to be honest. I brace myself for your disagreement to that statement. I know it looks like he has a finger down the front of her top? If you are the lady in question and are reading this perhaps you could let us know if he does indeed have his fingers down your top and why you think it's appropriate?

I assume the other girl is showing off a Buddhist tattoo!!! If ever there was an act which displays cult behaviour surely it must be "branding" yourself with ink with a symbol of the organisation to which you pledge your devotion or allegance?

Is she another one of Ole's "independent free thinkers"? I met so many people with Diamond Way tattoo's. All very odd if you ask me. It's like designer clothing, some claim they wear it because it displays their own "style, originality and personality". Actually no, you are displaying someone elses style and personality, you and millions of other brainwashed victims of globalised branding. Perhaps it's so DWB people can easily recognise each other. A bit like the Masons having special rings and handshakes so others within their "elite" group can identify themselves? Why not line the DWB coffers with a new DWB t-shirt and proclaim you allegance that way?

The Gun shot is one of others that can be dug up on Flickr recording a visit to Israel, Ole is seen wearing an; Anti Terrosist Squad T shirt in 1 shot. As for the brand issue, a true devotee has not encountered any glimpse of enlightenment until they have the Phowa T shirt or blessed wall hanging that has been lovingly passed down by the faithful, oh and of course the calendar every year.

My next observation may be more thought provoking, DW center members (perhaps 2 - 3 years association with the group) who themselves have not even graduated from university being allowed into state schools to teach 10 - 12 grade students about Buddhism.