Hi Suenam.

In answer to your post:

(Suenam) Who in DWB is in the perfect position to either encourage or discourage racism?

I would say that Ole Nydahl is in the perfect position to either encourage or discouage racism. No question about it.

(Suenam) - having spent time in Poland, I have to agree that it is much like England was in the 70's when there was widespread xenophobia born out of the fact that people were simply not used to seeing people who were different.

However, as you say yourself - many of these Polish people are in fact living in the U.K., and so they can't really fall back on this excuse - how can someone who themselves are immigrants living for several years in a multicultural society hang on to such beliefs? - well, one obvious answer springs to mind - they surround themselves and belong to a group which promotes that kind of thinking.

I think old habits are very hard to break. Just moving to a multicultural society (and I think we have to concede that the British aren't rid of their own prejudices either) doesn't immediately purge oneself of habitual prejudices.

(Suenam) - how is it possible that Ole is not a racist? (or at least that he is unaware of promoting racist thinking) - if that is so then he must simply be stupid!

As I mentioned, I'm just not sure about his views on race? At first glance they really do appear to be the rants of a died in the wool racist. I try to be as fair as possible and want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have never heard him come out and directly say he hates people of colour. I can only comment on what I have experienced and for me there is a little abiguity.

He does raise an excellent point when denouncing human rights abuses and the abuses perpetrated on women in some countries. But as I tried to point out in my last post (and I'm sorry if I didn't make the point clear enough) it just so happens that in the cultures where the abuses he highlights take place, the indigenous population is one of colour. The fact that they have coloured skins has no bearing upon whether they are going to commit these abuses or not. Race and skin colour has no bearing upon this at all. I think this is evidenced by the fact that not everyone in these countries is guilty of human rights abuses.

Where he makes a big mistake is when he makes sweeping statements about Muslims. He overlooks the fact that many people flee oppressive regimes in Islamic countries for the freedoms we offer in the west. Perhaps I am seriously miguided in my views (I'm no academic in this field) but I would be very suprised if these people flee these oppressive regimes to re-establish the same oppressive regime in another country. It makes no sense. Also, within one or two generations these people are for all intents and purposes, British (or take on the cultural values of the countries the decide to settle in).

Of course there are the "hardliners" who wish to use our democracy to undermine that very democracy but I feel that the vast majority of Muslims wish to preserve the freedoms they enjoy in the West.

I am aware of only one person of colour who is Ole's student and has been for many years. My impression is that this student is highly educated, ariculate and strong willed. I doubt that they would fail to notice if Nydahl was racist? But again I can't know for sure. Of all the DWB practitioners in the West how many are of colour? Is this a telling factor? My knee jerk reaction is to say he is racist but I just don't have enough evidence on the man to say 100% for sure.

But other people seem to report different accounts and I am in no position to dispute their claims.

As for some of his students? Well, I know of one group in the UK who had their mailing list suspended as it was claimed to have been a forum for propagating race hate. I didn't see any of the mails, and even though I lived in a close contact with some "senior" students of Nydahls, the issues was never discussed in my presence (but that might be because my views on racism in DWB had already been noted). So I have no doubt from my exchanges with some of his students that there is a racist division of DWB. I was shouted at by the head of the centre I attended for suggesting such a thing. I was having a civilised debate and was shocked (in hindsight I should have expected it) to see a student of Ole's, who claimed 20 years experience fly off the handle in this way. Perhaps it's becasue the emphasis is on building centres rather than self development through meditation?

(Suenam) - for me, the problem is not so much whether he is a racist or not (either privately or publicly), but the fact that his comments are so misguided. You say that, "if he wishes to defend our culture from dangerous Islamic values then I support his call for vigilance", but even this strikes me as a problematic and value-biased statement - for one, the term "dangerous values" seems rife with the demonisation of Islam that is at the heart of fascist ideology

I'm sure you will agree that in some cultures there are practices which defy all human decency, even in our own countries (catholic preists abusing children etc.), it is to these types of practices that I agree with his calls for vigilance. It is of course a value based statement, but then so are our statements on DWB. We all have a value system against which we compare others. I like the Christian idea of "do unto other as you would have done to yourself". From my experience of Nydahl he asks his student to be vigilant of these human rights abuses. Some of his students use it as an excuse for making clearly racist remarks.

I have pointed out to many DWB parctitioners that when he is condemning human rights abuses he neglects to mention China, the Catholic priests I refer to or the keepers of Guantanamo Bay. Make of this what you will? It is a serious oversight on his behalf methinks.

(Suenam) but worse still is this idea that our culture needs to be defended by someone like him!!!

I agree. He isn't enlightened or liberated in my opinion. He might just be guilty of the stupidity you accuse him of. Being an academic is no measure of intelligence.

(Suenam) (our culture does not need defending - it is not so weak, and personally I have a greater fear from the Ole Nydahls who claim to be representatives of a culture which I do not recognise, either as a Buddhist, British, European, or on any level for that matter)

I'm not sure I understand the point you make here so I make no comment.

(Suenam) I'm know for sure that certain things have been brought to Ole's attention concerning what goes on in his centres.

In my experience it's normally the rosy version as relayed by his "travelling teachers". But I can't dispute you claims. I only add my own observations.

(Suenam) So again, I can see no good reason for your claim. In my direct experience, I know that Ole will always side with the person who puts in the hours and brings in the money - DWB runs exactly the same as the Army or Police force in that respect - the heirarchy is so obvious to anyone who has been there even a few weeks, and it is also effectively absolute because it is based upon trust - anyone who dares to challenge the word of those above them gets told to leave.

Yes I agree (I think the Army and Police analogy is a little strong) there is a definate heirarchy. But from my chats with some travelling teachers some of them do appear to break ranks. I suspect that they quickly return to the fold though so that they don't lose their "travelling teacher" status. All a bit disturbing in my opinion. Show dissent and you might e deemed problematic, as in my case.

As for being asked to leave? In my case I wasn't asked to leave as such, more the door was left ajar for me to leave. In hindsight, I really don't want to belong to an organization that didn't want me as a member (not quite the Groucho Marx quote).

I just wished they'd told me before I'd payed 6 years membership and given many hours of free labour to raise the value of the property they bought. But hey, I take it as a lesson learned and perhaps it ripened some negative karma I had buried in my store consciousness. I hope that by posting here anyone getting involved with DWB will be encouraged to challenge the things we report or find themselves an authentic Dharma teacher. Which reminds me, Buddhism, if approached with the spirit the Buddha encouraged (don't believe something just because a Buddha told you, check it for yourself) is a truly immeasurable gift. Do not be discouraged from practicing Buddhism.

Best wishes.

thank you for such a lucid and insightful response Steve.

just to clarify that one point...

as you say yourself, humans rights abuses are not limited to culture, and as far as i can see, they are not exclusively tied to values, as the example of the catholic priests - it is very easy to espouse a certain set of values in public and at the same time practice something completely different in private.

in the case of Islam - these rights abuses are a threat to those who are victim to them - usually other moslems, usually, but not always in distant lands. i do not really see how their values could in any way seep into our daily life through lack of vigilance - if anything they are publicly condemned and subject to punishment by u.k. law.

on the other hand - i do see how such fearmongering and a call to action against such values can in fact seep into our daily life and values.

Ole seems to want to jump onto this bandwagon (or to the front of it!), and i suspect it is not because we need a champion to defend us, but rather that he is attempting to promote himself (and dwb).

both in this instance, and with the issue of fund-raising, i get the impression that, not only have the 8 worldly concerns been somewhat overlooked by dwb, they do in fact prioritise them.

it is because of this, that i am loathe to see them as respresentatives of true Buddhism in any way, and for me, this represents a far greater danger than any external threat from a culture which openly acknowledges and affirms its difference to ours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2010 07:03AM by suenam.

I agree with your comment on the recipients of the abuse within Islamic culture, it is sadly, other Muslims. I think we have a duty of care to all beings and must try and prevent the spread of such harmful actions.

I'm not sure I wanted to give the impression that I felt threatened by Islam. I think the fine Muslim citizens who wish to integrate into Western culture whilst holding onto their roots (at least the more progressive, empathic and compassionate aspects) will be instrumental in helping protect Western culture in much the way I discussed in my last post.

I'm not sure why he wants to single out Islam for his rants on human rights abuses? He's very vocal about protecting womens rights while he appeared to have no compulsion having several affairs and fathering several children whilst he and Hannah remained childless to my knowledge?

And what of those children? What of his duty of care towards them? Does he finance their education? If so is it with my membership fees?

I never had the impression that any of his muses where forced into a relationship with him. It always seemed a little like some of these impressionable women felt they had upped their kudos in grabbing themselves as lama. And to my knowledge they were always young women. I never saw him getting fresh with someone his own age?

The teachings are the teachings. Ole sometimes mixed them with some half baked psuedo-scientific non-sense in order to give his slant on the teaching more potency. Unfortunately I do not see he, nor his Diamond Way organization as representing Buddhism. And no one can say I didn't give it a good long look. So I agree with you there.

It's difficult to take seriously a man who believes Uri Geller has genuine psychic powers (during a lecture in Karma Guen), and who claims to have fought off a dragon with diamond daggers (Entering The Diamond Way). It's easy to attract vulnerable people with fanciful stories of miracles and attaining supernatural powers.

I just hope that DWB doesn't do irreperable damage to Buddhism and the Karma Kagyu lineage here in the west. Again I urge anyone who reads this to always remain critical of their teachers.

I was once criticised for this. "If you keep checking the same thing how do you hope to develop? Check it a couple of times then if it seems OK then just move on".

Well here's my answer to those DWB people who ridiculed my insistance on checking, and checking and checking......

If I cross a frozen lake and after the first 10 steps don't fall through the ice it would be sheer madness to assume that the ice will maintain the same integrity all the way across.

So to those who claim they trust Ole with unquestioning loyalty and believe everything he says, if he were to slip into dementia in his advancing years (and I hope that this isn't the case) would you still trust his every word? And if not how do you live with your dis-loyalty?

Best wishes.

S

One of the ways groups like diamond way control people is by restricting and controlling information. In the early days all their meditation formats were easily accessible. Now they are not. You have to go to a centre and get 'instruction.' I would like to publish all the instructions on a web-site so people can see for themselves and choose for themselves. The only instructions I am missing are for the '8th karmapa meditation.' If anyone is willing to forward me a scanned copy of that meditation booklet/instructions I would appreciate it.

Jah:

The meditation you speak about should not be openly displayed on the web.
This has nothing to do with some DW secrecy, this is the way it is done in tibetan buddhism over all.
Some practises are considered secret and are available only for the practitioner.
This is not done for any other reason than to protect the individual practitioner
and to safeguard the practise itself from becoming diluted or misunderstood.

I feel throughout this long running thread that there is a lot of misunderstandings based on the fact
that few people here actually understand the mechanics of tibetan buddhism.
If one has poor understanding of tibetan buddhism one might also easily
misinterpret a lot of things within its realm, and this has been done in many a place in this thread.

People usually see what they program their minds to see and so the mind "wants" to fins faults with things it
is looking upon. This is evident here. Just a reminder....

I left DW mainly because it has been more and more revolving around other things than the actual dharma.
Wild parties, politics, attitude, secterian tendensies (no i will not go so far as to say dw is a sect),
behaviour of SOME of its members. On the other hand I have clearly seen that many good practitioners today
got in through the DW and has then left. Just like me. These people seem to have handled the experience
in a mature way and has moved on.
Few things in life are just bad or just good.
I hold few regrets today.

Thank you.

The purity of a practice is protected when it is clearly explained in writing, openly for everyone to access. Not when it is kept secret amongst an elite few deciding who is worthy and who is not. The sincere practitioner will drop the practice if it is not a good fit and will seek further consultation from the seasoned practitioner if he runs into trouble or wants more teaching on the subject. This is how spiritual development is properly propagated, not by having priests and lamas in control of the information and setting up exclusive prerequisites that may or may not be appropriate.

If you look at history you will see clearly that spiritual methodology and community merit is always lost because of secrecy and control, not because of openess.

Jah:
no you are wrong here and you probably have no deeper insight into tibetan buddhism in general.
It is not a question of who is "worthy" it is a question of who is ready.
Just like if you study engineering or any other subject in university for instance,
your teacher will not give you advanced material to study before you have learned the basics,
a student in this case would hardly object to "not being worthy" but would likely understand that
if he learns the ground he will later get access aalso to these "deeper" subjects.

You will not cause anything good by displaying the 8 karmapa meditation openly
and I can only plead with you to not do so.
This IS NOT a Diamond Way idea, it is a common practise in buddhism,
and you would know that if you had any deeper knowledge about the subject that now seem to annoy you.

Let´s not get hysterical here please....

Hysteria? I didn't know I was sounding hysterical. Perhaps it is a profound difference of opinion, based on experience. Did that ever occur to you? Just because a Lama completes a retreat or has gone through the religious training, he is not necessarily capable of of judging other people's readiness. That is a fallacy. Some are, some aren't. Religious title certainly is not a criteria for determining if an individual has that gift.

The question is also: why are you so alarmed? Are these dangerous practices? Do you know that the ONLY wise way to practice them is sequentially, according to the tradition. Or that is simply what you have been told?

And no, spiritual training is not engineering or medicine. We are talking about the human being, not a person's profession.

I am against secrecy and exclusiveness, period, stop. No one has the right to hide spiritual knowledge from others for reasons they have determined to be justified.

Just because that is the way Tibetan Buddhism does it, that doesn't make it right.

And please don't try to make it about me. I have more experience than you know and it is the principle that is the issue.

I second that. In Tibetan vajrayana and Japanese mikyo (japanese lineage of tantric buddhism) meditation techniques are kept secret, this might look cultish to outsiders, but the reason in fact is to avoid misinterpretation of this techniques by wannabe yogis, mystics etc. I know some people who have done themselves a serious mental damage, because they did not apply these techniques in correct manner and under the guidance of qualified teacher, but on the basis of what they "understood" from the book. Still some other people who have not caused harm to themselves also wrongly understanding the principles and terminology of such texts teach it to others and so they cause harm to others.
In fact Diamondway meditations (despite having some deviations from the Tibetan original) are written out pretty clear when compared to Tibetan and Indian meditation texts, where often whole part of the instruction is missing from the text and is passed on only in oral lineage from teacher to student.
You see if teacher is genuine and student is honest, teacher should make sure that student understood the instruction and follows the meditation instruction correct way and student will ask teacher questions when he/she has doubts and uncertainities about the instrction and once all doubts are cleared by further teacher´s instruction and clarification for the student, he/she will follow the instruction without twisting it around or adding own ideas to it. But how can a booklet make sure that the reader understood its contents correctly?

-
my own experience with dwb was that they simply went through the booklet with you - neither adding nor subtracting anything - yet at the same time, i fail to see anything there which really supports the main points of contention - for me, it was certainly not in the meditations where the problems arose - as many contributors to this thread have also stated - it was in the behaviour of certain members (often groups of members) and also in the divergence between their stated values and their actual bahaviour - ie. a lack of integrity.

both ole and a lot of the other members of dwb were quite well versed in actual Buddhist philosophy, however, in my opinion, they utterly failed to put it into practise - and for me this is one of the reasons why it was quite difficult to start to come to terms with, and to describe here, what the problem really was with them.