Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 27, 2020 05:25AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In tulsi's
> recent public announcement of why she is suing
> Hillary Clinton, she spends majority of the letter
> describing what seemingly wonderful person she is
> because she is a patriot and so forth. Even common
> people who are her supporters found it distasteful
> that she went on and on describing herself as some
> kind of a military hero. She was a desk clerk in
> the army.

"Any patrols, any fire battles?"

> cult have in getting involved in politics?

Good question, especially SIF leaders in Poland describe politics as "dark forest".

> Let alone getting
> involved with convicted drug smugglers, financial
> fraud schemes, and anti-homosexual activism?

"where's the f*****g money"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2020 05:30AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:11AM


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:11AM


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:13AM


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:55AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [harekrishnathing.com]


Not objective which is easy to show but also stigmatizes irregularities.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 28, 2020 02:58AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [prabhupadasaid.com]


“The Bible should be accepted literally and not symbolically.” Hard to say that are words of A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami, when he wrote a lot's of comments to the scriptures.

Problem is with translations. Something about 11 thousand versions, where even translation from Jehowa Witness'es which is very good is against their own doctrine or "contains undiscovered coils".In practice, there is also Madhurya-rasa in the Bible. Anywaye there are prakrita-sahajiya among the supposed followers of Vishuism.

The division into demons and devotees is also simplified. We have devotees (different levels of realisation), we have innocent, demonic, impersonalists, prakrita-sahajiya, etc.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 03:26AM by DaWatcher.

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What is one who is Mudha?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: January 28, 2020 09:31PM

[prabhupadasaid.com]

Quote

“Kill all the mudhas and give Krishna to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Krishna’s.”
5 November 2015

Prabhupada said, “Those who are actually human being, you have to give them Krishna. And those who are mudhas, we have to kill them. This is our business. Kill all the mudhas and give Krishna to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Krishna’s. We are not nonviolent. We are violent to the mudhas.” – Morning walk, 21 January 1976, Mayapur

To understand what Prabhupada meant by calling us 'mudhas' go here:

[vanipedia.org]

[vaniquotes.org]

[vaniquotes.org]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 29, 2020 03:14AM

So basically a Mudha is anyone who does not accept their specific god. Got it. Very credible and logical indeed. Pretty much the formula of all fanatical religious groups.

DeWatcher: What do you mean it's "Hard to say that are words of ACBS"? It's right there in the transcripts on the Vani archives (along with many other lunatic comments, ideas, dogma):

[vanisource.org]

Do you think people have time to make shit up about this cult and write thousands of pages of lecture transcripts to debunk some fringe cult? These groups abuse followers, kids, are involved in shady money schemes, political power trips and misinformation about nearly everything while hiding behind a so-called hindu banner and crying "religious bigotry" when they are revealed for the bullshit peddlers that they are.

Where in the Bible do you find any Madhurya Rasa? Nowhere. Conjugal love is specific to the Vaishnava cult of Bhakti. It is literally the ONLY religion that speaks of devotees realizing their eternal spiritual form as young gopi cowherd girls who help Radha and Krishna get off in their "love pastimes".

The division in Butlers group and all of these groups is very simple: Those who are in "Maya" and those who are part of the cult and on the path to "liberation" via the method of mantra chanting. The various impersonalists and sahajiya and so forth are all considered by the devotees like Butler to be "demons" and in "Maya". So no, the division is not over-simplified. That is truly the way they see the world. That is how the kids are raised and that is what is preached in the cult. Plain and simple. Read through Vani—there is no shortage of outlandish comments and ideas being proposed. For every ounce of logic and reason there is 1000 ounces of "woo woo" that you can't unsee... but then again, I am a demon.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 29, 2020 05:31AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So basically a Mudha is anyone who does not accept
> their specific god. Got it. Very credible and
> logical indeed. Pretty much the formula of all
> fanatical religious groups.


In this case the context was lost and it was treated too generally. Just take a look:

[prabhupadabooks.com]

Quote

Prabhupada: Still, if you say, "You are mudha," they become angry. Such mudhas, rascals, they are in the government service. And if you say that "You are mudhas," he becomes angry. Upadeso hi murkhanam prakopaya na santaye: "If a mudha is advised nice instruction, he becomes angry." He does not take it. Payah-panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam: "If you give milk and banana to a snake, you simply increase his poison." One day he will come-(growls). You see? "I have given you milk and you..." "Yes, that is my nature. Yes. You give me milk, and I am prepared to kill you." This is mudha. We have to kill this civilization of mudhas. That is Krsna consciousness movement. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. Those who are actually human being, you have to give them Krsna. And those who are mudhas, we have to kill them. This is our business. Kill all the mudhas and give Krsna to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that you are really Krsna's. We are not nonviolent. We are violent to the mu?has. [break] ...wal, did you come here before?

So you can see that the word "kill" falls in the context of narrowing the term "mudha" to politicians who are ready to kill someone who teaches them or "gives them milk". So the term "kill all the mudha" is a far-reaching generalization. The lost context of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami words.

Or at least the beginning of the paragraph outlines concentration on politics and then first of all this "mudha" is assigned the readiness to kill.


> DeWatcher: What do you mean it's "Hard to say that
> are words of ACBS"? It's right there in the
> transcripts on the Vani archives (along with many
> other lunatic comments, ideas, dogma):

I respect original Veda and today's science. And verify. As I showed earlier - there is always someone changing something. The original dies. The question of verification methodology arises. And I use these tools. Also logic and other. For example you can find explanation for ayur-veda in system dynamics advanced course with mathematics. Quite shocking can be...


> [vanisource.org]
>
> Do you think people have time to make shit up
> about this cult and write thousands of pages of
> lecture transcripts to debunk some fringe cult?

I do have. I do not have interest in cults. Already suffered because of the engagement in this cult. Anyway I did not loose the interest for the Truth.

> These groups abuse followers, kids, are involved
> in shady money schemes, political power trips and
> misinformation about nearly everything while
> hiding behind a so-called hindu banner and crying
> "religious bigotry" when they are revealed for the
> bullshit peddlers that they are.

True. Event nowadays if you listened to the people coming from SIF centers in USA there is utilitarianism in treating the people (business). They are slowly opening their eyes which is not easy.

> Where in the Bible do you find any Madhurya Rasa?
> Nowhere. Conjugal love is specific to the
> Vaishnava cult of Bhakti. It is literally the ONLY
> religion that speaks of devotees realizing their
> eternal spiritual form as young gopi cowherd girls
> who help Radha and Krishna get off in their "love
> pastimes".

Of course there is. But you have to remember i.e. that Jews got rid of the wife of Jahwe, Asherah. Etc.etc.

Or take the traces from the Book of Genesis, where God creates man in his own image and likeness - woman and man. And not the man alone. A woman from Adam's rib. Not everything has been removed.

But it is not the place and time to discuss that.


> The division in Butlers group and all of these
> groups is very simple: Those who are in "Maya" and
> those who are part of the cult and on the path to
> "liberation" via the method of mantra chanting.

In practice we may have groups in which understanding is shallow, or the party mentality bolts more subtle perception and so on. Party mentality means breaking yama. It's practically inevitable. That's how i see it but i can be wrong.


> The various impersonalists and sahajiya and so
> forth are all considered by the devotees like
> Butler to be "demons" and in "Maya". So no, the
> division is not over-simplified. That is truly the
> way they see the world. That is how the kids are
> raised and that is what is preached in the cult.
> Plain and simple. Read through Vani—there is no
> shortage of outlandish comments and ideas being
> proposed. For every ounce of logic and reason
> there is 1000 ounces of "woo woo" that you can't
> unsee... but then again, I am a demon.

True. In fact, however, all living entities have been given some form of freedom and their choice is whether they want to be in the spirit world or in specific areas of the material world. Freedom of choice. As far as it was offered to them. Love is freedom. Violation of freedom is a symptom of a lack of love. No one will be forced to love. And that was one of my allegations about the moods and behavior in SIF Poland against leaders, etc.

Of course, someone brought up, for example, in honest non-clerical or nativity Catholicism or following the teachings of the Buddha, especially ahimsa, will not have attraction to aggressive attitudes. Notwithstanding that individual freedom and rights are in one way or another regulated by law.

However, if someone asks the question whether sects for recruitment purposes color reality by exaggerating its flaws, this is true, and so it also looked at SIF Poland. Of course, the question of difference in value systems or levels of sensitivity arises again. Eg vegetarianism and not killing animals.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2020 05:37AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 29, 2020 07:55AM

Looks like SIF bought some prime google ad space to get top ranking when people search for "Chris Butler Cult"...

They even have a link in it to a lecture of Butler talking about religious fanatics/cults. Of course the cognitive dissonance ensues when you realize that he is telling people that religious fanaticism is not possible when practicing "true religion". He spends half the lecture talking about Jesus and stating that Jesus never said anything about people worshiping him when we all know the verse, "no one comes to the Father but through me..." etc etc. And of course anyone who has been in the Butler cult knows that he is the man who you worship and serve if you want love of god. So, as expected, another disingenuous lecture that paints a pleasant picture for the newbie, but is not reflective of anything you will experience when you are in the cult. In the cult you are told some things as you start off, and when you ask and want to know more, you find out very quickly that your link to god is through Butler. That in fact your chanting and dancing and following the 4 regulative principles is not even going to yield any spiritual results until you surrender to Butler. And if you have been around the cult for a while, you will hear lectures of Butler that sound nothing short of religiously fanatical and bigoted. Butler explains god in lose terms as an abstract supreme person. He never once mentions "Krishna" or "Narashingha" or any of the actual teachings and dogma of the cult. Just surface pleasantries that seem perfectly nice and spiritual to the simple seeker. But is this really what they teach? Is it really the actual message he promotes and the teachings and concepts? Of course not. Far far from it. His own guru, as Corboy pointed out, did have a very fanatical concept of "killing" the Mudhas. If that is not forceful religious fanaticism I don't know why is...

The fact is, religion and fanatacism do coexist. In most cases they are nearly inseparable as everyone wants to feel they have found the "right one". Half of our time as young devotee kids was spent in learning how to defeat christians in argument. In other words, how to fanatically propose that our god is better than theirs. How to show that our teachings were superior because they were based on "5000 year old" books and how or god is "sweet and beautiful" and "all attractive". We conveniently leave things out when trying to convert others. Why? Because we know that if we told them the truth: You need to surrender to Butler for this shit to actually work. Then people would run the other way. Because when they see a lecture of Butler smashing homosexuals et al with derogatory terms and living in a beach front home isolated from the real world and they see all the businesses his devotees operate to make money for him and they see his cheesy ass yoga teacher wife, they would stiffen with disgust and recoil.

The more Butler is exposed, the more they will spend time (and LOTS of money) patching up the holes in their charade. They will publish website after website to fill search results, they will buy ad space on google, they will cry religious bigotry when challenged in the open or by journalists and ex-devotees and they will even send people on this forum again to spread misinformation and diversions. By hook or by crook they will stand by their guru who has lead them down a rabbit hole they may never get to of. Or even want to get out of for that matter. Once 2-3 generations of kids grow up hearing this guy and having no other knowledge or ideas of their own how to navigate the world, they will be the very thing butler claims does not exist: Religious Fanatics.

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