Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: March 05, 2020 12:29PM

Not sure if anyone else has seen this before.
This is written by an ex-er who managed to escape the Cult of Butler.
I have the utmost respect for her courage in speaking the truth, knowing
that it would cause her to loose her family, which it did.
I applaud her bravery and I hope she has better days ahead of her.
I would say to her, never loose hope. The truth will come out.

An Insiders Perspective on Tulsi Gabbard and her Guru

By: Lalita

Sep 24, 2017 · 8 min read

I was recently asked a question about US politics that is related to an issue very close to my heart. In the US there is a state representative, Tulsi Gabbard, who is gaining attention and interest of the media and general public. To most, this politician seems amiable, a war veteran who is attractive and articulate, who has had an interesting life and seems very together. I get her appeal. But to me, I know the awful truth behind her amicable facade.

I grew up in what is now termed a High Demand, Closed Group. Most people know them as cults, but personally I detest the term cult because it usually conjures images of Kool Aid and terrible TV shows featuring Kevin Bacon. That’s not what I grew up in. Instead a High Demand Closed Group is a group that has isolated itself from mainstream life and lives by the demanding and usually arbitrary rules set by the leader of the group. The leader is usually a charasmatic personality who encourages their followers to treat them as some sort of Messiah. The entire group dynamic is centred around gaining favour of the leader, who uses this dynamic in a controlling and abusive manner. In many of these groups the leader uses their position to manipulate their followers into performing sexual acts against their will, or in others, the relationship becomes emotionally abusive, where the leader verbally or physically attacks their followers, doling out increasingly severe punishments including sleep deprivation, starvation and physical self harm. The latter is the type of group that I grew up in.

The group I was involved in is called The Science of Identity Foundation, and it was started by a man called Chris Butler, who has variously been known as Siddhaswarupananda, Srila Prabhupada or Jagad Guru. His “philosophy” is a mishmash of Buddism, Vaishnava Hinduism and Christianity. There’s around 1,000 or so followers across Australia, New Zealand, Philippines and the US. Chris Butler himself was born in Hawaii and from what I’ve been able to glean from my research, was a college drop out who started a small group in the mid 60's. When the Hare Krishna movement started gaining traction in Hawaii during this time, he found it difficult to find new followers and instead of competing with the Hare Krishna movement, decided to take his current followers, along with a $20,000 donation, and join the Hare Krishna’s instead. During his tenure with the Hare Krishna movement, he struggled often with the leadership of the group (AC Bhaktivedante Swami who was his initiating spiritual master), and was repeatedly reprimanded by Bhaktivedante for publishing booklets expounding Chris's own philisophical views. This was heavily frowned upon, and when he refused to curtail his actions, he was sent away to a small temple in New Zealand. It was during this time that he met a fellow Hare Krishna by the initiated name of Tusta Krishna Swami. They became close friends and when the relationship between Butler and AC Bhaktivedante Swami further fractured in the late 1970's he and Tusta founded their own small group, bought a farm in Australia and all of his new followers left New Zealand for Australia around 1980–1981. My parents were amongst them.

I remember very clearly the plane ride to Australia, the mix of excitement and fear.

I also remember Chris Butler held this larger than life presence in my childhood. Everything I did I had to think about how it benefitted him. He was my parents spiritual master and they looked to him for guidance on everything, from what to eat, to how to raise their children, and they did it all without question. When I talk to people about the lack of questioning, they find that aspect odd. It is odd, but to put it into perspective, I was raised to believe Chris Butler was God’s voice on earth, and if you questioned him or offended him in any way, you were effectively offending God, and because we believed in reincarnation, that meant that you would be reborn as the lowest lifeform imaginable and then have to spend eon’s working your way back into God’s good graces. So questioning the leader was spiritual suicide, which was seen as worse than death. So no-one questioned. Chris Butler also would ridicule the intelligence of anyone he didn’t like, belittling anyone he felt was questioning his authority even slightly. He demanded the utmost dedication and loyalty from his followers and if he didn’t get it, the punishments were swift and severe. I remember hearing stories of people who were told they weren’t allowed to eat because they didn’t make food to his liking, who were not allowed to sleep because there was a light making a buzzing noise in the house, and the follower didn’t have the foresight to fix the issue ahead of time.

Literally everything we did had to go through Chris. If you wanted to work outside of the group, you had to ask his permission. No-one could get married without his consent. From the late 80's all of us kids were removed from public schools because he didn’t want them influencing our minds away from our service to him. So from that point we were home schooled, until there were schools established in the Philippines. After that all the children were sent to the boarding schools there for intensive schooling. From the small pieces of information that made it out of the schools to me, a lot of the kids were traumatised by the environment, as it was almost prison like. Classes were on hygiene and cooking and all the ways that they would need to serve Chris Butler best. It’s only speculation, but I am certain that this was because places like the US and Australia had standards of education that the home schools has to meet, and they just weren’t. They could avoid scrutiny by having the kids in boarding schools in the Philippines. I can’t even imagine how dreadful it was for my friends who got sent there. I was lucky to avoid it. I didn’t avoid the lack of schooling though, and by the time I officially left the Science of Identity Foundation in 1997, just before I turned 20, I had only received up to a 5th grade education.

From a young child I remember one of the main features of my life was the lectures that were sent to us via tape for us to listen to. Basically these were 1 hour long sessions of Chris talking about his beliefs – how evil and out of control gay people were, how women were inferior and sub human and should be controlled by their husbands, how messed up and evil the outside world was, and how his relationship with God was so special, only he could lead you back to Godhead (Heaven) and that he had so much control over his existence on earth, he could choose the moment of his death. We worshipped him, loved him even. Another part of his teachings was that all life is an illusion, and because of that all relationships were an illusion. We were encouraged to not invest in any relationships other than with him, so we were in effect isolated from our parents who did their best to not love us as per his recommendation, and instead looked at him like a surrogate father/messiah figure. He was this imposing force in our life that we weren’t supposed to offend, which is frankly terrifying when you’re a small child. I remember having many nightmare’s and a condition called sleep paralysis which can be brought on in times of great stress. My sister developed stress induced epilepsy during the time when we were supposed to be taken out of school. For my parents part, they did try to keep us in school for as long as they could, but when Chris heard parents were resisting him, his directive was clear – get them out or else. Every time my parents would try to take us to school, my sister would become hysterical and then she started having seizures. That was the power he had over us.

I really wanted to paint this picture of my childhood, because Tulsi Gabbard grew up in the same group that I did. She was subjected to the same environment I was. She’s still surrounded by this group and calls Chris Butler her guru. This is why the increased interest and her rise to power concerns me so greatly. I want to be very clear, I have no issue with Tulsi, as far as I am concerned, she’s as much a victim as I am, more so because she was groomed from an early age specifically for the path she is now on. What I am concerned about is the control I know Chris Butler has over her, the influence he has over her ability to make decisions, decisions that could become law and impact a whole lot of people. I know what an abusive, mysogynistic, homophobic, germophobic, narcissitic nightmare Chris Butler is. And I know what kind of relationship he has with Tulsi.

If I could put it in a way that maybe more people could understand, look at the relationship between Ivanka Trump and her father. It’s very clear to me that Ivanka walks a very fine line between trying to be her own person and trying not to piss off her father by doing so. Donald, by many accounts, is a person who demands utmost loyalty, and will attack anyone who doesn’t give it, and remove them swiftly from his life. So you can imagine Ivanka while being her own person, would immediately shut down her own feelings and opinions if she knew her father would see her as disloyal. She would get cut off if she lost favour. There’s a lot she has to lose if she opposed her father.

Tulsi Gabbard is in the same position, only the stakes are higher. Not only would she lose support for the position she holds, but she would lose her family, all of her friends, and this messiah/father figure if she opposed Chris Butler. She would be outcast from the only existence she has ever known. That’s a hugely powerful reason to continue to please Chris Butler without question.

I truly feel for Tulsi. Hers is not an enviable position. I know because I spoke out about Chris Butler a few years ago, and my family cut off all contact from me. This has happened to every other person I know of who got out. I hope one day Tulsi does reject Chris and finds her own voice. She has done amazing things and it makes me sad to think that another victim who was been abused and manipulated her whole life isn’t able to have the career she’s worked so hard for, free and clear of Chris’s toxic influence. Maybe one day she will, but while he is her guru, his influence over her makes her dangerous and unreliable, because Chris is dangerous and unpredictable.

[Ed note: For the record, Tulsi has not renounced Butler and until she does, she cannot be trusted.]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: March 06, 2020 01:34AM

Some comments to Lalita's testimony:

VoxVeritasVita Das Wrote:
> There’s around 1,000 or so followers across
> Australia, New Zealand, Philippines and the US.

Poland some say 300, some say 1000 with "satellites", some say that fewer people, even only 150, came to retreats.

But also Ukraine, some people Czech Republic, Slovakia, there was a mission in Lithuania, Russia, Norway, some people work in the UK. The mission in Hungary did not prove successful in the 90s. Now some devotees from Poland in South America.

There even was idea to open mission in Ghana I remember, but reason was rather know.

> So questioning the leader was spiritual suicide,
> which was seen as worse than death. So no-one
> questioned.

In Poland, this phenomenon took the form of literal treatment of instructions, which led to the loss of common sense. There were lectures, where Siddhaswarupananda himself pointed out that one should use common sense and not follow instructions blindly.

One of the interesting examples in Poland was the decision to buy 3D Deities. Because there was an instruction or a suggestion to worship God in 3D forms, there were "now former leaders" in Poland but still "leading activists" decided to "seriously take this instruction" or in other words make a list of willing and buy Deities ... wholesale. Of course, it began to smell that "friendly brokers" are not necessarily motivated only by "spiritual seriousness" but simply earn themselves, but there was no evidence. In any case, in my opinion, the individual devotee's attraction to the Lord's favorite form was violated.

> We were encouraged to not invest in any
> relationships other than with him, so we were in
> effect isolated from our parents who did their
> best to not love us as per his recommendation, and
> instead looked at him like a surrogate
> father/messiah figure.

At the practical level, it turned out that it was the friendships and real care of parents who were not members of SIF Poland that were more effective than party members of the sect. The party element often manifested itself as ingratitude. There are testimonies where normal sheeps in a devoted manner helped certain activists/leader, and when they asked for some personal organizational repayment or help, they met with amazement and rejection - the caste does not serve, the caste is served.

Of course you can't throw them all in one bag. There were examples of initiated people who showed a lot of empathy.

However, there are examples where the ordinary human concern for devotees, which resulted in less time involved in the center, was defined by "important leaders" as "spiritual failure."

To end, it is important to emphasize that some form of isolationism or protection in SIF on Hawaii was justified, because there is evidence, accounts or even books about the murders of ISKCON members criticizing the behavior of leaders and it is very likely, if not certain, that Siddhaswarupananda was threatened.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2020 01:43AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: March 06, 2020 03:52AM

Finally a shot of the real Chris Butler- leader of a secretive and destructive cult with his little minion, Tulsi Gabbard, following dutifully behind.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: March 06, 2020 10:19PM

VoxVeritasVita Das Wrote:
> A federal judge said in a decision Tuesday Google
> did not violate the law by momentarily preventing
> Gabbard from buying Google ads because it is a
> private company and not a state actor beholden to
> the First Amendment.
> Read the full decision here.

This is characteristic and symptomatic of SIF activists (I'm not talking about ordinary working devotees who are fighting hard for financial survival and supporting spiritual activities above that). They want to be spiritual saviors of the world, but they don't know the Bhagavad Gita well. They want to save the US, but they do not know the American Constitution well. They would like to spread Vedic knowledge and, for example, Ayurveda, but they know it cursively or sloppyly, as the tool on the website showed. They intensively recruit new members but do not follow yama and break state laws along the way ....Error in prayers? Who cares. Rasa basa in mantras or stands - who cares. Etc..

In the press article from the Polish portal that I published to you here, you can read that a journalist is asking a spokesman for SIF Poland in connection with the name change - what is the formal side of SIF Poland's activity (we are talking about 2013), because SIF changed the name and the enemies (who themselves they often have dirty hands, just a party war) they claim that the changes are to hide mishaps. And this is what the SIF spokesperson says she doesn't know what it looks like at the moment. Is this a religious association or an association etc. She does not know.

By the way, I forgot about Bulgaria and Croatia - people from Poland went there to spread the mission.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2020 10:29PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: CarlFig ()
Date: March 07, 2020 02:13AM

All nine of her imaginary friends...


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: March 08, 2020 04:13AM

Retreat is not a bad idea. Although the signals are contradictory. Let's look at the events anyway. The US has partially withdrawn from Syria. Finally, Turkey attacked in the Idlib province. Erdogan releases thousands of migrants from Pakistan and Afghanistan. They are trying to get Greek islands near the Turkish coast. Lesbos. Invasion of Europe? There are not many women and children there. A film was recorded the migrants put the baby girl in the fire to cry to create an impression on european society via media. As we remember, Tulsi Gabbard met with Mr. Assad and had a vision that the US would not be a world gendarme. Regardless of the moral side, this is the sequence of events after the American withdrawal. Then Mrs. Tulsi Gabbard went to talk with Prime Minister Modi in India. And there are riots with Muslims and India is buying weapons from the US for $ 3 billion.

The message to the SIF activists-readers of this forum - and you children, geopolitically completely naive, believe that Ms Tulsi Gabbard will bring anything for world peace? And these fruits - where Tulsi Gabbard was somehow involved - do you consider spiritual success? So far, poor results. What about her karma?

Do you think, that she, singing Hare Krishna mantra in nice US-offices and talking lots would have her hands clean of blood?

Poor results so far. Poor knowledge of the American constitution.

And what about the Happy Man. Not stopping Tulsi Gabbard, daughter of another Guru disciple to engage in politics,

Is he still happy talking about mindfulness when warships in Mediterranean Sea stop other ships rescuing migrants? Always happy?

And another example - women devotess liking Tulsi profile on Facebook, completely ignoring her political acceptance for later abortion and disgrace for the Vaishnava culture ..

You are crazy. Amazing. Shocking.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2020 04:28AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: March 09, 2020 09:14AM

Henry has done some recent videos where he is interviewing me. I have never changed my stance about this group. Please go and support if you understand the psychological damage that this group eventually causes people the deeper they get into it. These people have spent millions of dollars in spreading misinformation and promoting Butler's Pleasant View age message while covering up all of the money laundering, disciple and child abuse and actual lectures he preaches to his close disciples. I understand that some of you here on this forum are actually sincere Seekers on this particular path. I applaud you and wish the best for you. But when all is said and done they are asking you to abandon all reason and accept the philosophy and an ideology that is not firmly based in reality in any sense of the word. They are asking you to enter a Fairytale Land where you will Frolic fraternity with a blue God, his girlfriend and his cows. I'm not trying to be mean or intolerant of other people's religious face. But Windows religious faiths transgress basic human rights, reason and logic, and the fact that children evolve psychologically in a very specific way and that these things tarnish that natural and biological flow of evolution and leave them in a state of cognitive dissonance and an inability to be a functional member of society, at that point it becomes something sinister and detrimental. It's pulling people into believing a naive and idealistic version of reality. And this was a problem. Especially when it happens in a young mind. It's one thing to seek out some sort of spiritual path as an adult after having a rational understanding of the world and various religions and cultures. It's a whole other thing to fill these children's Minds with unnatural conceptions that don't serve them any applicable and functional coping mechanisms. What happens, in effect, is that big grow up either unable to think for themselves outside of the group or, if they choose to leave the group because they don't agree with some core beliefs, they flounder in the state of anxiety, fear and guilt about having abandoned some sort of absolute reality and truth. And nothing can be further from the truth. My friends, like Rama, have had their childhood completely scrambled by this group. As have some 40 other friends of mine. For no good reason other than Butler enjoying his beachfront homes, having some sort of naive political ambition, abusing minorities, and feeding people complete idealistic naivety. Instead of working on themselves psychologically, Instead of going through life's challenges with a rational mind, they will run to their beads,kietans, scriptures, prayers, Butler's Lotus feet for a solution. Only to find that it actually is just a form of escapism. I have seen it time and again in Butler's group and many other groups and it's the same formula, same pattern and same psychosis. Unfortunately, for better or worse, the Western Seeker is often looking for a magic pill to solve all of their problems in life. Culturally this philosophy has very little utility for the Western mind. Obviously things like mindfulness and cognitive behavioral therapy are powerful tools and may have origins in eastern thought. But those are completely devoid of a lot of the other bullshit that comes with what Butler is offering. Butler propagates a world of division, intolerance, judgment and hatred. If you have seen his videos and lectures that we were showing in the Philippines and that he has given to his disciples then you will understand very plainly what I'm talking about. If you have just seen Chris Butler speaks lectors, then you may think that I am being disingenuous and not forthcoming.dharma has nothing to do with what Butler teaches. Dharma asks us to cause as little harm to ourselves and those around us and continue with the flow of life. It does not ask us to surrender to a megalomaniac, germophobic narcissistic Guru. There is an elephant in the room, and his name is Ganesh. You can either take Ganesh metaphorically, as a representation of seeking the truth and protection from charlatans, or you can take Ganesh literally and go down the rabbit hole of where that takes you. In the world that Butler has built for his disciples, Ganesh and the larger Pantheon are anti-homosexual, anti-muslim and anti anybody else who doesn't follow their ideology of worshipping Butler. There are many other spiritual teachers who offer a more holistic, all inclusive and tolerant philosophy and system that doesn't rely on hodgepodge irrational nonsense to advance our understanding of ourselves and the world we live in.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: March 09, 2020 09:16AM

Hi Carl Fig- my favorite part:

"WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Representative Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) is under intense pressure to drop out of the 2020 race for the Democratic Presidential nomination, her nine supporters announced on Monday.

The announcement from Gabbard’s nine followers surprised many Democrats, who had been unaware that the Hawaii congresswoman was still running." End quote.
An often heard sentiment, indeed.

Loose Tulsi, Loose. (maybe... gracefully?)

Rumors have it that she may have a bed in the basement of Fox Channel News so she can run upstairs and report as needed. However, it does seem like she has a new large van?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: March 09, 2020 09:29AM

Dewatcher, I would like to extend my apologies if I came off too harshly in the last couple of post calling you an apologist. In my personal journey of extricated myself from this group I have had to contend with disassembling the whole religious framework that I was asked to impose on my mind as a child. In doing so, it has resulted in a extreme distressed for everything this group and others like it stand for and represent. In my ideal world view I not only see a division of church and state, but also a division of church, or religion, and children. Children Within These groups should be allowed to live their life under the protection of their parents with no influence of their parents religious convictions. This is very possible and can be done with proper education about human psychology and evolution. When children are fed from a young age certain religious philosophies and Concepts it has the opposite and detrimental effect under understanding of the world. Because a young mind is unable to comprehend many of the philosophical Concepts that these religions proposed. Include things like following and surrendering to a spiritual teacher. The message that churches and religious groups use of targeting those who are vulnerable and susceptible to influence is usually one that paints the world for them in extreme divisions. It's not a functional, sustainable and practical or applicable worldview. Instead of assessing real threats and how to practically deal with those, many children growing up with in these groups will have invented many false ideas about the world around them for no good reason other than trusting in the ideas of a single Crooked Man.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: March 09, 2020 04:15PM

Thank you Ian- it could not have been said any better.
Simply put, the Cult of Butler is a hazard and a poison for susceptible people everywhere.
And its most victimized of members were the children.
What boggles the mind, is that there is now a 3rd generation. The kids that were in Butler's "schools" now have children of their own.
How will they fare under Butler's pseudo, draconian, dismal doctrine?

This is not a religion.
This is not Hinduism.
This is something Butler made up one fine day.
Back in the late 1960's.

Never one to work a day in his life- Butler figured out a pretty good scam.
He rules with fear-not with compassion or knowledge, and definitely nothing spiritual.
In time, the truth will prevail and he will be revealed in his true form.

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