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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 19, 2020 05:22AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my own situation I was very fearful initially
> to speak out against this group/butler. It was not
> till I started to study vaishnava history,
> mythology and had been through similar group
> dynamics in other groups that I started to gain
> some courage. My childhood was lost and I felt a
> deep anxiety about what I had gone through. Once
> this forum, and various other blogs came around
> mirroring my experience and then Gralows
> journalism, I had already made my peace with the
> nonsense I was fed.

I have a similar experience.

> A funny story: in the 80s, purushottam das bishop,
> bhalakilya das and a few senior devotees thought
> it a fun idea to bring up tulsi leaves and smoke
> them. This is when we were told that butler was
> nityananda and katyayani was mother yashoda.
> Needless to say, this kakamani idea was smashed by
> butler. Though senior devotees did continue to
> drink near beer like oduells.

When it comes to Polish funny stories, rhymes are examples:

- Bhakta nie bhakta - licza sie fakta.

meaning: Whether he is a devotee or not, facts matter.

- Sila ducha, potem grucha

meaning:

We can talk about spiritual force and declared freedom from sex desires, but it ends with masturbation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2020 05:26AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 19, 2020 10:11PM

Of course, these two rhymes must be apologized, for what I do.

One should also take into account the influence of a bad relationship (matriarchy) on party mentality and wrong selection of mantras. Or chanting them in the right mood or stage. Especially the Maha-Mantra and Gayatri-Mantra issues.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2020 10:14PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 20, 2020 01:33AM

The mantras are described as all powerful, there should be little to few excuses for them to work or not. In other words, intent, mood, etc, are shown in many vedic stories to have no influence over the mantras efficacy. Yet we are told thier effect is hinged upon just about every rule under the sun. Just like butler will not eat a meal unless 8 pages of rules are followed. It negates the so called simple method of thr so called yoga dharma: just chant and be happy. This phrase dissolves into a idealist pleasantry only a childlike brain would take seriously.

The whole spiritual endeavor of the butler group et al is a process if mental masturbation. A process is only as powerful as its ease of application and visible efficacy. Neither are true for Butlers group. Abstract and irrational rules abound, stories and myths and philosophical mumbojumbo fill devotees heads with little function beyond confusion and endless questions and waters down answers. Everyone becomes an apologist and no one takes any responsibility. Bureaucracy and ardouse hierarchy abound leaving the average person wondering what's so spiritual about all of this?

My advice: show your true surrender to the so called holy name by accepting life as your guru and chanting regardless of and rules. Myths and philosophy. If the name is powerful it will reveal and clarify all questions. That is the meaning of power. Not more complexity and hokuspokus, flip flop of why it works or does not work.

There are few if any gurus that will mot eventually reveal thier very human flaws. In fact the scriptures abound in prostitute gurus, butcher gurus etc. Etc. Guru tattva is that guru is everywhere already. So surrender to the guru of life, chant gayatri and meditate on it's simple concept and live life free and simple.

Butler always stated the importance of having a living spiritual master. In reality, however, it is the message of the spiritual path that is of importance not a personality from whom it comes. In fact, what good is the guru who is inaccessible anymore a dead guru? Making one's connection to a Divinity dependent on the living embodied person somehow negates the very concept of spiritual life. And of course, this is the problem with the Pope, brahmanism and any number of systems that claim their success and dependents on a personality. A human. Spiritual Master comes in many forms sometimes seemingly less-than-ideal, give their respect for the knowledge they offer for the person they are I take my water from many cups, it would be foolish to use just one cup let alone worship it. Its the water I need, not the cup. Therein lies the beauty of India's ancient philosophical and spiritual pluralism. Of all spiritual systems to rise out of India, doctor was the one that fought mostly against this hierarchy of brahmanism. Yeah then the last five hundred years or so it has again become influenced by the very Dogma it fought so hard to weed out.

In fact, when the spiritual Master dies, many devotees who have developed the sort of Personality worship mentality surrounding their Guru feel like they've been unplugged from the wall. Party mentality ensues and eventually you have something that is just the same as Christianity and Islam and any other religion that retroactively holds a particular spiritual teacher in eternal regard as a link to divinity. This happened in iskcon as well. And all the other gaudiya groups. Needless to say, this party Spirit resulted if anybody's refusing to get guidance and support elsewhere. They feel their advancement is reliance and dependent upon the external Mission or organization of the Guru. And then, typical materialistic considerations of loyalty take hold. 20 Generations from now, they will still be saying "prabhupada said...". And two newcomers, they will quickly sweep under the rug any collectors or incongruent statements she may have made about women, blacks, homosexuals, Islam, science Etc. And in this way, a system of secrecy, cheating and artificial hierarchy is born to manifest as some new religion. Instead of continuing to vigorously study the scripture and take it apart and put it back together again and get further guidance and understanding various spiritual topics, they become locked in a singular mode of thinking. Brainwashing at its best. An entire generation of kids is born who will no longer ask any questions and simply accept the built-in mistakes of the previous generation. At that point a deeply-rooted fanaticism culture develops which is extremely hard to adjust and weed out without much fanatical opposition.

When this happens, Butler's marriage to White Lana, is financially fraudulent business enterprises, hodgepodge spiritual teachings all become part of his Lila. Just like with the Gods, we consider that their stories of sexist heroism, violence, contradictory and less than Savory Behavior are to be considered somehow transcendental.

There is nothing transcendental about a group of men sitting around and chanting bfervantly in the hope of realizing their true spiritual form as a twelve-year-old maidservant of Krishna in an eternal slice of Indian Land somewhere beyond our purview. Meanwhile, back on Earth, they perpetuate systems of hierarchical spiritual oppression, power and control.

Spiritual life is a personal Journey, not a personality worship Journey.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 20, 2020 01:39AM

The aura and function of charisma is that it dictate we put all of our spiritual eggs in one basket. What happens when that basket is moldy, cracked, and full of holes, but still looks good from some angles? The personality Adept at wielding charismatic power is always going to try to show the nicer side of the basket. The Hallmark of humilty would dictate that they show us the whole damn basket, and apologize for leading us astray. And then, using whatever remaining Charisma they have left, they would instruct their followers to seek out better baskets.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 20, 2020 07:40PM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mantras are described as all powerful, there
> should be little to few excuses for them to work
> or not. In other words, intent, mood, etc, are
> shown in many vedic stories to have no influence
> over the mantras efficacy.

Mantras work. The question is what is the action. Let's take the Maha Mantra

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Hare Hare

When Rama is Rama and when is Balarama? What does Lord Rama? Who is His companion, who is He fighting with and why is He fighting?

Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends congregational chanting of the Holy Name.

What about chanting individually? What preceding mantras? Respectful obeisances to Acaryas?


> Yet we are told thier
> effect is hinged upon just about every rule under
> the sun. Just like butler will not eat a meal
> unless 8 pages of rules are followed. It negates
> the so called simple method of thr so called yoga
> dharma: just chant and be happy. This phrase
> dissolves into a idealist pleasantry only a
> childlike brain would take seriously.

If we assume from Bhagavad Gita that matter is like a machine, it is not surprising.

Who in the Gaudiya tradition receives Gayatri Mantra for chanting? Why?


> The whole spiritual endeavor of the butler group
> et al is a process if mental masturbation. A
> process is only as powerful as its ease of
> application and visible efficacy. Neither are true
> for Butlers group. Abstract and irrational rules
> abound, stories and myths and philosophical
> mumbojumbo fill devotees heads with little
> function beyond confusion and endless questions
> and waters down answers. Everyone becomes an
> apologist and no one takes any responsibility.
> Bureaucracy and ardouse hierarchy abound leaving
> the average person wondering what's so spiritual
> about all of this?

My experience is different. My experiences are mixed up. Maximum controversial. "Misra".

But I will refer later to the things you raised. These are very important issues and I am not clear.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2020 07:45PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 20, 2020 09:44PM

In the meantime, let me remind you three more points noted:

1) the phrase "Samaveda Bhakta Vrindam" was noted in the words of respects payed during Arati.
The question arose, why pay respect only to one of the Vedas? And wasn't it a coincidence that it was a writing mistake and should be "samavetah" or "gathered" as in verse 1 of Bhagavad Gita

2) During the retreats on the folding posts / cuboids around which devotees danced, various pastimes of Lord Krishna and devotees were visible. In one sense, it could correspond to the attractions of different people for various pastimes or the Lord's Forms. For me it was a bit uncomfortable confusion.

3) One year there was a dilemma regarding the wholesale purchase of 3D Form of the Lord. The question arose as to the individual attraction and relationship of a devotee.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2020 09:45PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 21, 2020 02:24AM

In the end, as you can see from your comments here dewatcher, there are way too many inconsistencies and conundrums that can arise from practitioner to practitioner that no group could possibly answer and satisfy. Yet, without clarification on so many fronts, most devotees are left in a state of mental chaos regarding the philosophy, mythology, rituals and practices. To solve this paradox and mess, most girls and seniors will ask that devotees simply accept things as they are and continue chanting. Obviously the contradictions in anomalies found in the Bhagavad Gita or just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many fundamental incongruences spanning all of the Vedic works as well as contemporary spiritual variants on the teachings.

This in turn leaves the devotee in a childlike state of reliance on the group. Within the group it makes sense and feel okay because everyone around you is also blindly following and turning off their mind.

I agree that mantras have some ability to focus the mind if practiced properly. But most devotees take it at face value. The actual combination of syllables in some way equate spiritual progress. Nothing could be further from the truth. As you mentioned, it is about intent. So, if the practitioner is chanting with the intent to become increasingly devoted in service and mind to their crooked spiritual teacher, guess what? That is what they will get. If one approaches a spiritual life with the understanding that no Miracle or great Enlightenment will happen anytime soon and that they will need to rigorously study the scriptures and perhaps even cross reference with other scriptures as well as hear from various teachers in order to find something that corresponds with their level of understanding. So, it is a very personal self discipline. Unfortunately in the west most if us want a simple sugar pill to solve all our problems. Chant and be happy.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 21, 2020 03:18AM

Surely the congregational chanting of the Holy Name - Maha Mantra, with the respectful mantras to the Acaryas of the Parampara and the Sri Panca-Tattva mantra Maha Mantra work and bring benefits. My hard experience in the situation of realizing that the worldly dirt both in the mind and heart, allowed me to appreciate the Force of Life - Caitanya. Personal experience of bright light in the darkness of the state. Anyway I can see it as worth of noting.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the end, as you can see from your comments here
> dewatcher, there are way too many inconsistencies
> and conundrums that can arise from practitioner to
> practitioner that no group could possibly answer
> and satisfy.

The problem i saw was no desire to solve it. Maybe I was not much determined to communicate it. Probably i would be classified as heretic or iconoclast. Mr. Messer.

> This in turn leaves the devotee in a childlike
> state of reliance on the group. Within the group
> it makes sense and feel okay because everyone
> around you is also blindly following and turning
> off their mind.

True, but the benefit from the congregational chanting of the Holy Name, Guru's teachings, scriptures reading is present - as i experienced.

> I agree that mantras have some ability to focus
> the mind if practiced properly. But most devotees
> take it at face value. The actual combination of
> syllables in some way equate spiritual progress.
> Nothing could be further from the truth. As you
> mentioned, it is about intent.

If you recall the teachings of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, he is talking about healthy cells in the mind / brain. Considering whether or accepting the existence of three modes of material nature, satva, rajas, tamas, one must also take into account the properties/effects of the force under which he is in control. Take, for example, a look at the schools of Buddhism - here is a comparison of schools (in Polish):

[pl.wikipedia.org]

Buddha swung the Dharma wheel three times. I have not found an english translation.

Quote
Translation (Google Translate)
Today, Buddhism is divided into three great traditions: Theravada (Sanskrit Sthaviravada), Mahayana (Great Way), and Vajrayana (Diamond Way). They correspond to the so-called Three Turns Dharma Wheel, or three cycles of teachings that the Buddha gave during his life. The following tables contain the basic differences and doctrinal and cultural similarities of the traditions of the Great and Diamond Way.

Studying this comparison lets you suspect that these are the next stages of spiritual realisation connected with changing the influence of three modes of material nature. A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami mentioned about coming out of the mode of ignorance to passion, the passion for goodness and then avoiding the mode of passion and ignorance.

Either way, as one of the SIF Poland students who went to another sanga said, the spiritual development train should move on two rails - studying scripts and chanting / practical engagement(seva). I will not give you the exact sound.


> So, if the
> practitioner is chanting with the intent to become
> increasingly devoted in service and mind to their
> crooked spiritual teacher, guess what? That is
> what they will get.

The teaching is, that benefit comes out of speaking transcendental sound and / or listening to it. An advantage for both the speaker and the listener, where not every person will be qualified to become a speaker / teacher.

As for the sincerity of the student's approach to either listening or serving the Guru - a transparent medium - it is a matter of introspection. He will not cheat on 3 modes of material nature. The attempt to exceed your abilities with the destruction of your health will be in the tamas category and the attempt to e.g. get a clap in the sand by being 'serious' will be in the 'rajas' category.


> If one approaches a spiritual
> life with the understanding that no Miracle or
> great Enlightenment will happen anytime soon and
> that they will need to rigorously study the
> scriptures and perhaps even cross reference with
> other scriptures as well as hear from various
> teachers in order to find something that
> corresponds with their level of understanding. So,
> it is a very personal self discipline.

Job to do

> Unfortunately in the west most if us want a simple
> sugar pill to solve all our problems. Chant and be
> happy.

Sankirtan is the answer. But effort is innevitable. But humble effort.

My experience and not only mine was that the naimittika dharma not suited to individual gun became a problem. This was noticed by several independently studying the subject, in particular one devotee, who studied the subject of 3 modes of material nature for 20 years being a member of SIF Poland and at some point - with anxiety but still humbly - enlightened me.

The late lectures were also beneficial on that particular subject.

Of course, reading different scriptures, the question arises of the authenticity of their author's realisation, verification using sanskrit dictionary, instructions, logic or understanding the meaning of reductionisms.

Was this devotee respected from his studies on the three gunas? Not really.



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2020 03:40AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: January 21, 2020 04:08AM

It is also necessary to cite the story of another devotee who, due to various perturbations, was excluded in one way or another from SIF Poland sanga - i do not remember the exact details of the exclusion. Nevertheless, he was publicly presented to another sanga community by the famous Acarya as not-formally-initiated however still a Brahman.

An interesting phenomenon is the expectation that everyone who left the given Sanga should be treated as those who abandoned the "only way to God", got involved orgies, used drugs, smoked cigarettes, etc. I experienced one such suggestion - not very serious. No, I didn't smoke. In fact, I've never had attractions for it.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: January 22, 2020 07:43AM

To each their own. I have not had a enlightening experience in the cult. The mantras work when you are in a lively kirtan in the same fashion that a rock concert makes one feel free and happy. Chanting on beads alone was always stressful as you were asked to chant 16 rounds and spent majority of the morning trying to bang through the rounds so you can get on with your life.

There is no science behind the Gunas and other ideas in the vedas. None. It was not systematically ever studied nor tested. It is the opinion of a few men. Mostly brahmins and mostly amalgamations of buddhist and advaitist philosophy mixed with devotional rhetoric and myth. It holds no water. It may feel pleasant for some time but after a while it becomes routine like all other activities. This is likely why the butler cult mixes things up with other spiritual practices like yoga Nidra and pleasant music—because they need to try to keep it all fresh for new recruits.

I'm not trying to be mean or dismissive. There is a lot of great knowledge in the eastern scriptures and philosophical works. Much of it is pluralistic and even Chaitanyas final offering of Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is a sort of apologist stance that basically states what we already know when we seriously ascertain all spiritual ideas: It's inconceivable. It's a paradox and it's not a singular method that can be applied to all seekers of truth. Everyone approaches "god" or the idea of a higher power or spiritual path in their own unique way. Why? Because we are all unique. The junkie versus the disillusioned successful business man will approach spirituality with different intent, reason and quality.

Butler is a man. A man who himself is affected by his mind and ideas. He has a past filled with drug use and hatred and anger toward minorities and obvious anger issues. He is cynical and controlling and neurotic in his day to day behavior. His followers are westerners looking for cheap solutions to lifes problems. They swallow the pill of his version of gaudiya vaishnavism with the naive idealism of a child. This type of nativity started with ISKCON as devotees hit the streets in the 60s madly engulfed by the charism and novelty of Prabhupada. They did not question his teachings, ideas or approach because it was quickly made clear by Prabhupada and his fanatical GBC that doing so will destroy ones spiritual life. This threat of imminent doom is a classic state of cults. I understand it may not be the intention of the leaders or fanatical followers to "scare" people, but that is the subversive final effect. People adhere, don't question and blindly follow out of a place of fear. And the fear runs very deep. Devotees will reject their family, friends, society and a host of illogical fears take hold.

Nowadays, the devotees of Butler are quick to sue, file lawsuits and libel suits. It's their modern day Narasigha dev. In many ways it shows plainly their weak faith in their gods and deep insecurity surrounding their spiritual masters actions. How else can it be viewed? They don't explain their guru's actions and words and behavior. They don't explain their spiritual practices honestly and plainly and hide behind pleasant music and yoga Nidra and yoga asana breath work. They scream religious bigotry when people show them plainly a video of their guru talking like some low level sailor about homosexuals and muslims. They find nothing odd about the numerous letters of Prabhupada literally accusing Butler of property theft etc. About him marrying his own successful yoga personality disciple and abandoning his sanyasi order. About operating schools for young boys and girls and showing them and making them listen to vile anger and hate filled lectures. About direct ties of his various businesses to utter fraud and scamming schemes. About his odd proclivity to gain political momentum on a world-wide scale via his brainwashed flip flopping Tulsi disciple etc etc. And this is just the stuff we are aware of and ready to speak against. There are MANY other disciples who choose to hide, remain nameless or have been silenced by complicity.

I have spoken personally to ex-followers who have told me they have MUCH MUCH more information about financial schemes, odd behavior etc. Once such ex-devotee even mentioned money laundering and another started that Butler had many of his devotees attend Gay parades, go to gay clubs and organization and pretend to be gay so they can give Butler "intel". What business does a Gaudiya Vaishnava guru have in such affairs? Why does Butler know so much about homosexual sex practices. I recall as a young boy hearing lectures wherein butler graphically described many fringe sex acts. Why were we allowed and made to listen to this and write essays on these topics? Why were we groomed to have such fear and hatred towards other Krishna groups, religions, women, family etc??? Was this a well rounded education of any sort? What spiritual benefit came from such things?

When all is said and done, if a person is happy in this cult, by all means continue. But I truly question ones sanity and sense of well being and self when this is all passed off as "acceptable" and "justified" by virtue of it's relation to the blue god Krishna. If this is what passes as "spiritual life" we are living in truly backwards times indeed.

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