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Vera City
Both Tusta and Sudama (Bhakitvedanta sanyasis) got married after old Sid. Sudama's was not a happy marriage. Can you confirm anything that happened to Sudama?

I don't know what happened to anyone, other than what I have read here. I had some friends in the group but when I left I lost all contact. Others in the group were simply arrogant hypocrites who I couldn't care less about.

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FormerSelf, How would you advise someone new to the cult or entertaining surrender now?

I would just say, don't surrender your brain. We were given one for a reason.

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corboy

Memoirs of My Addicted Brain by Marc Lewis
...Lewis describes, for intstance, how a sense of meaning and significance are evoked by a specific type of activation in the brain's limbic system.


So...it is interesting that some methods used by...gurus create patterns of arousal, giving a charge of signficance to the...guru, even when one cannot quite explain the teaching.

...Perhaps many came to crave some sort of purification/absolution, but didn't want to use the terminology of sin, or repentance, as those were from religions many had rejected.

And..many in the scene were still so young that perhaps self reflection and applied insight were difficult.

So a movement that emphasized purification, purity, and that linked all such healing to the idealized image of a guru (Prabhupada and later Butler) might have been a way for some very wounded young persons to glue themselves together and yet still feel themselves to be counter culture...better than returning to the hated bourgeois homestead of Mom and Dad...

...But if one merely substituted the devotion to the guru (a process addiction) and kirtan and chant bliss for ones previously tripping out on drugs, that would not have applied insight. It would just have given a new trigger for brain chemistry to make one feel good and, as Vera reminded us, a social feedback loop to reinforce the cult package.

So that could have been another ingredient. Seeing and perhaps being involved in some dangerous and shameful things during ones time in the hippie scene and then linking ones sense of purification and healing and salvation to an idealized guru/parent figure.

All the threats that if one disobeys the guru and leaves, one will go insane might have carried a quite potent charge for persons who, for some reason, felt themselves on the brink of insanity when they first met the guru.

Well spoken. Thanks for this resource. The original followers of Butler were youngsters who were heavily into drugs and the hippie lifestyle. They were idealistic and trying to escape both their parents culture, as well as the dark side of the counter culture. Butler initially proved to be a third alternative, deceptively embracing purity and healthy living. It has kept this veneer of health while paradoxically morphing into precisely what they were escaping; the dopamine rush of pseudo spirituality coupled with intense materialism. There is also something to be said about hanging out with narcissists...

I always loved this quote by a former writer on SNL applied to Butler:
“You know what I think it really was? He was a narcissist. I love narcissists---even more than they love themselves. You don’t have to buoy them up. They are their own razzle-dazzle show and you are the blessed, favored with a front row seat.”
~Patricia Marx

We have to understand that Hawaii in the late 60 ies ealy 70 ies .....was a very small world when it came to yoga ...yogis ...eastern spirituality
Butler arrive on the spotlight just at the right time....disciples of Shivananda ashram ...experience with LSD and other drugs
and remember he said he had mystical experiences "Where he heard directly the voice of Sri Krishna " that was heavy stuff then for those hippies living in the jungle of Mauiii

I remember him telling me when I visited him in Mauii ..."we are the very best of whats going around on the island right now when it come to eastern spirituality"....there was a few other groups he said but they where small and insginificants
So this narcissistic good looking young man(at the time ) son of Dr Butler ....a guy using psychic sleep (that was unique in that context ) he got his way and built is little cult .....many have benefited like the Gabbards ....many famalies where destroy ...some individual lost there life
but that the way it is when you build an homophobic cult that request 25% of your income ...it grows and grows
and you never know where it will ultimatly lead you or wich life it will destroy .....he made money thats for sure and its still pouring in
and I must say the salad bar at Down to Earth is very good food

On further reflection of the old photographs comparing Butler to Hitler and the body language of his followers ... The avid followers resemble the effect of iron filings coming into contact with a magnet. Surely there is some sort of charismatic magnetism happening here?

I distinctly remember Butler mentioning that the best devotees were the ones hanging around his feet and that the ones standing in the back of the lecture hall were the ones who were not following regulative principles. I remember this distinctly because at that time I was trying to get as far away as I could from the fellow as possible, and Butler was keeping his eyes on me when he stated this. It reached a point where I stopped attending his lectures. The old lectures about transmigration of the soul, reincarnation, etc were being more and more replaced by rants of hatred against homosexuals, Christians, material scientists, karmis, and just about everyone on planet Earth.

Another turning point for me was when I was asked to place a garland onto the necks of Butler and Looney as they entered the building. I felt uneasy about doing this but I managed to do it ... but I will NEVER forget the look that the Queen Bee (Waaayyy Looney!) gave to me as I put the garland around her neck. This was a piercing gaze without any compassion and full of hatred, according to my perception. She's a black magic woman? I'd say so.

Hello.

I am 27 years old. I spent some time living with people who greatly revered this man whom most referred to as Prabhupad. They were some of the nicest people I've met. I'm an alcoholic. I latched onto their beliefs because I have been terrified for years of where my drinking will bring me. I stayed sober with them for 3 months. I had the best time of my life. The kirtans and the prasadam were amazing. I started drinking again while I stayed with them. They were very tolerant of my disregard for the rules. When I had been with them for 6 months, I became very ashamed of my behavior and ran away. None of them did anything to make me feel ashamed; I have since spoken with mental health professionals and I have this problem where I project my emotions and thoughts onto other people.

I did meet one person in particular who was very very pushy about their spiritual path. He was from Australia. Despite the hostility, I could sense his motives were rooted in a sincere belief that he wanted to share something that had been very beneficial to him.

I have a tendency to overlook a lot of things, but I cannot say with any honesty that the people I met seemed like the cronies of a scheming manipulative con-man. I don't know if I'm just more open-minded than other people or what. However, I do have some mental issues. I am easily influenced by my environment and the people around me. So perhaps my opinion isn't valid.

Many groups are layered like an onion.

Members who are in the outer layers may see only the public side of the leader's behavior. They may be entirely unaware of the finances of the group, the money accumulated by the leader, his actual attitude toward homosexuals, and how the money is being used for purposes of political patronage.

Members singing kirtans and giving hospitality may be unaware of the children's schools.

The risk of linking one's recovery to a situation like this is the risk of crisis if one finds later on that a group one loves has become tied to behavior you consider morally objectionable.

Importance of Getting Information from Former Disciples or Former Members

One man tells how a wealthy and altruistic family evaluates investments or good cause projects before donating to them.

They avoided being burned/victimized by Bernie Madoff by following this precaution.

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A number of years ago, a wealthy friend of mine considered investing in Bernie Madoff’s hedge fund. But his family’s policy is that they won’t invest in any company until they speak to a number of former employees. They talked with people who had left Madoff’s Ascot Partners, and they concluded that something didn’t feel right, so they put their money elsewhere. When I heard this story, it reminded me that any good journalist should follow this strategy when he’s writing about a company. And after the revelations of the past week, I’ll be sure to apply the same standard to any N.G.O

[www.newyorker.com]

[www.strippingthegurus.com]

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Frances Vaughan (in Anthony, et al., 1987) gives the following set of questions, which potential new members of alternative religious movements are advised to consider before joining:

Does the group keep secrets about its organization and the leader? How do members of the group respond to embarrassing questions?.... Do members display stereotypic behavior that emulates the leader?.... Are members free to leave?.... Does the group’s public image misrepresent its true nature?
Reasonable questions, all. But where to get an honest answer to them? From the guru-figure? From his inner circle of disciples? From other loyal members of the group, anxious to have you join them? Surely it is obvious that any spiritual teacher or organization with things to hide would never tell the truth in response to those questions, instead giving the potential devotee the “right” answers which he/she wanted to hear in the first place. And is it not obvious that all organizations and leaders keep secrets from the public?

Does the Vatican have secrets? Yes, as every government, corporation, NGO [i.e., non-governmental organization], and other institution does (Allen, 200
4).
Is it not equally obvious that all groups (even secular ones) have “pod people” members who mimic their leaders? (Even physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer’s graduate students used to unconsciously imitate his manner of smoking cigarettes. Oppenheimer, for his own group-thinking part, dismissed David Bohm’s work as “juvenile deviationism,” going so far as to suggest that “if we cannot disprove Bohm, then we must agree to ignore him” [Peat, 1997].) And obvious, too, that you’re always “free to leave,” even if being “pursued by disasters” to “drown in the dark sea of ignorance” afterwards ... and that the public image never properly represents the true nature of the spiritual teacher or community?

Were common sense to play a greater role, one might instead do the obvious, in evaluating any particular guru-figure: simply talk to former disciples who have split from the “master,” and ask them why they left!

That latter approach, indeed, is the only way (short of published exposés) to accurately gauge the character of the guru-figure and community.

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koofland
So perhaps my opinion isn't valid.

Koofland,
Of course your opinion is valid. You had an experience with followers who treated you kindly in a time of need.

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koofland
I spent some time living with people who greatly revered this man whom most referred to as Prabhupad. They were some of the nicest people I've met. I'm an alcoholic. I latched onto their beliefs because I have been terrified for years of where my drinking will bring me.

This is not hard to understand. Butler and other cult leaders always attract good, altruistic, and idealistic people. In turn they believe they are saving the world by passing on their beliefs and acting kindly towards people who become interested in their way of life. And who is not attracted by the music, the incense, melodic chanting, and the food? It provided a sensual distraction to your alcoholism for a time.

Most cults do not look like what one would imagine from a “Lifetime Movie of the Week” or “60 Minutes” expose. Adherents are not glazed-eyed zombies. They are regular folk who are active, creative and intelligent. You can’t always spot a member of a dangerous cult by looking at them, or even living with them for six months.

They do end up, by design, dedicating their talents and lives to a man who is a fraud using them for his own glorification and lavish lifestyle. Followers do not realize this because critical thinking processes are continually interrupted by their daily practices. Many have never even met Butler, but worship an idealized image based on myths created by Butler himself. You will see old pictures of Butler worshipped on altars as if he were a living deity in the prime of his life. They offer food and drink to a photograph taken in the 1980’s.

Where new people are welcome, you never get to see the underbelly of the cult. The great majority of long time followers do not have access to the inner circles. Many of the "exers" on this thread and those that I have interviewed were witnesses to the beginnings of the cult and/or were once in the inner circle. As corboy pointed out, you only see the public face of the cult. There are deeper and darker layers. If you were exposed to those in the beginning, you would come away with the same conclusions as people here on this forum. The people who post here are telling you the secrets about what lies behind the scenes to the point where people’s lives have been threatened for revealing the truth.

I suggest that before making any judgment about the group, that you continue with your recovery and research on this website the many topics on undue influence and how cults operate. There are hundreds of articles that will certainly give you more understanding of mind control.

Do you also realize that the group does not believe in psychology or psychologists? They believe that one can conquer substance abuse by chanting, eating a vegetarian diet, and worshipping their guru. If you are not successful at this, it is your own fault (not the guru’s or the chanting).

Did it occur to you why you had to disappear in shame? The reason is that there is a psychological trap in their philosophy. In other words, if you can’t live up to their standards, you are the failure. Individual members of the cult may have tolerated your drinking, but the underlying faith dictates that you are a failure, not sincere enough, or not good enough if you continue to do drugs. It means you failed to taste the so-called nectar of devotional service and prefer the lowly tastes of this material world. This of course is absurd.

I also think you should consider well the testimonies of those people who were once members of the cult, often for decades. They were also like the people you met. Their stories are as valid as yours. Many of them were also in the inner circle.

Good luck with your recovery.

I learned that a particular group was considered a cult.

At that time, I had a friend in this group and was in the process of forming an important business connection with someone else in this same group.

A former member described this group and its activities at one of the early meetings of Cult Awareness Network (CAN)--the meeting was facilitated by Dr. Margaret Singer (now deceased). Singer was a through researcher and would not have allowed someone to speak if she had not done a background check.

But..much as I was distressed by this information, I chose to ignore it.

Why?

*I was already emotionally involved.

*Two--I had the commonplace assumption that all cult members were glaze eyed zombies and would be readily identifiable as such. Neither of my two friends in this group behaved in this manner at all.

At least not in public and when with me.

Their behavior behind closed door meetings of upper level initiate members --that behavior would have been quite different. No outsider, potential recruit, or lower level member would have been allowed to see that.

So, because I did not yet know how deeply committed members keep their extreme submission to a group and guru a well guarded and often cherished secret, I let myself get involved with a business arrangment I would have avoided, had I known what I know today.

(Or, as the Yiddish proverb goes, if Grandma had a putz, she'd be Grandpa.)

-----------

Again, to emphasize what Vera just said--you, a new visitor, will be shown the best face of a group. You will not be told about the childrens schools or homophobia or what is done with money.

Or what is done to people who have left and try to speak out.

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note: The Cult Awareness Network was later sued by the Church of Scientology and then purchased by them. Today any involvement with CAN is best avoided.

koofland,

I could write an essay on every point that follows. It is a good guideline to help avoid falling into Butler’s cult. From this information alone it is easy to ascertain that Chris Butler is a very dangerous cult leader.



Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
9. The group/leader is always right.
10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.
1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

The point is that you are only are getting information about Butler from Butler or his followers. It is like getting information about a politician from his press secretary or about a felon from his criminal defense lawyer. It is never the whole truth.

The problem lies in that this word SINCERE is used in a very manipulative way. If you are "sincere" then surely you will see what his followers see. They say to check guru, shastra, and the "Lord in your heart". That is the only validation. If you are not "sincere", then you won't see what the followers supposedly see. You will need to conclude that you are lacking or not good enough and no one wants to admit to that! This method of validation is flatly a coersive tactic. They know that the "lord in the heart" can mean anything; an imagination, an emotion, a feeling, a delusion. How many times have you heard about someone being ripped off by someone they trusted? How many times have you heard people say about a criminal who did a heinous crime, "He was such a nice neighbor!" Feelings are not very good BS meters. If you are struggling with alcohol, you have to be doubly cautious.

What Butler writes and preaches is far different than what he actually does. There is also a great difference between what he says to the public and what he preaches to his inner circle.

There are over 300 hundred pages on this forum from witnesses who have decades of direct experience with Butler. Many had close association and were devoted loyalists. They all suffered the damages and disparities between what was preached and the reality of being under Butler's dominion.

Take advantage of Rick Ross's resources on this website.

Take a good look at the many articles on this link. If you can hold Butler up to this scrutiny, then you are truly using your critical thinking skills and not following blindly.