Whitemoon:

Let's try to stay focused on the Butler group.

You can start another thread about just ISKCON if you want.

Also, please don't post "flames" i.e. very insulting statements about anyone here or a group you don't like.

Flames are against the Message Board rules.

Quote
zelig
... I am also interested in the people who had the strength to leave and why. Also, many people suffered after-effects that lasted for years after leaving the group.

Yes - after-effects that lasted for years after leaving the group:

In my case, although I left Honolulu in 1985, there were many after effects for at least 15 years after that, including a divorce directly related to being involved in the cult, plus all the feelings of guilt about not becoming a "pure devotee" etc. This really was due to past brainwashing, I believe.

Quote
whitemoon
What they dont understand is that it is the simple person, the basic form of life, that keeps them and this planet going ... all the bureaucrats, all the karmis, all the meat eaters, we keep you on the road, we keep your administrative systems going, we keep your food and stinkin vegetables in the stores, we keep your roads roadworthy, we pay your taxes, we keep your lights on at night, the ordinary karmi person makes your life GO ... yet you turn your nose down at us. ...

Siddha, himself, was particularly good at criticising the "material scientists" yet at the same time he demanded to have all the objects that those same scientists had worked to produce...

:lol: E.G. I remember he used to criticize people who rode "bicycles without wheels" (exercise bikes), to which all the audience found so amusing, YET there was an exercise bicycle in his own apartment!!!

Yep, Siddha takes the cake for saying one thing and doing just the opposite!

:?

Thank-you for this great website. I had a best friend once but she has been consumed by the movement in hawaaii. She is very secretive about what it is exactly that she has been doing over there for the pas 6 years.
Thanks to all the information posted i now have a much better understanding of what is she is up to. Sometimes it's better not to know too much as im totally confused as to what to do about all this information in regards to her. She is an adult after all, a free thinking one definately not. No loud and proud on this belief thats for sure it has to make one wonder!!!! Any tips i would love to hear from you.
wanda

Quote
wanda
Thank-you for this great website. I had a best friend once but she has been consumed by the movement in hawaaii. She is very secretive about what it is exactly that she has been doing over there for the pas 6 years.
Thanks to all the information posted i now have a much better understanding of what is she is up to. Sometimes it's better not to know too much as im totally confused as to what to do about all this information in regards to her. She is an adult after all, a free thinking one definately not. No loud and proud on this belief thats for sure it has to make one wonder!!!! Any tips i would love to hear from you.
wanda

I won't say don't try. It's just very difficult. I do know that no one could have changed my mind about the group when I was a "true believer". But things did chip away at it accumulatively. An encounter with truth here, a conversation there, seeing a hipocracy or someone bringing something to light all contributed to my leaving. My family mocked me. That didn't work. Drove me in deeper. Angry best friend didn't work. Nasty letters and notes don't work. Probably the best thing you can do is get in direct contact and go on a long walk and ask her to share her experiences and beliefs. Listen very carefully. After she has dumped, you can question things. You can bring up the questionable things that you have learned about on this thread and direct her to read some of it too. Unfortunately, not much is recent, but the history is there. The patterns are there. Chances are she will not be willing to check it out. Devotees are in mortal fear of their spiritual lives if they hear any criticism of their guru. Keeping the conversation light and friendly and keeping in touch in a non-judgemental way is the best. Continue being a friend as long as you can. What people said to me did have a subconscious effect. The problem is that you are dealing with a culture that is secretive and alienated from the rest of the world. Who knows, you might be the safe place to go to if and when she wakes up.

Another thing- there were times when I just experienced burn out and needed to get away. Be that friend who won't tell when she wants to go out for an Orange Julius or do something fun without devotees judging her. It depends how disturbed or fired up she is about it all. A lot of the devotees I knew were either hyper or walking around with different levels of depression. I suffered a panic attack in a mall after living in the country for a year. I was asked to work on a project and lost the comfort and peace of the rural life when JG moved me to Honolulu. I hated the project, the food, the place I lived (on cardboard boxes in a warehouse), and the people I worked with. It would have been great to go to the beach for a day with a non-devotee friend, had I any left......

Wanda:

Another thing. Your friend might very well be content with her position and spiritual practices. Some people just like thinking that all the answers are clear and are content and trusting to do what the guru tells them. It all seems so peaceful and pure and moral. Even if you showed them proof of what is written here in front of their eyes, they would not believe it. People didn't leave as long as they were fed and housed well and got the attention they needed and were busily engaged with a project or work they liked. You can go on for years skating like that. I left when something did not sit well with my own ethics and universally accepted principals. Deceiving the public was one thing. I thought if this is all so spiritual and good, why not be transparent? Why lie about anything? Why hide? Why doesn't JG speak out for himself and be honest about being behind all those newspapers and politcal campaigns? Why hide behind fake organizations and the puppets that he created?

"I moved from the Big Island to Maui in 1976 at Siddha's personal request to help him and his followers establish a third party and run the campaigns of several candidates at all levels throughout the state. When he asked me to help, he said that the project was starting out sort of low key and undercover (although it wasn't under very heavy covers) and would become a progressively overt mechanism for presenting Lord Chaitanya's teachings (Krishna's teachings). I think there's a wide perception throughout the state now that his followers involved in public service have yielded to a cultural bias that they could actually have turned around to some degree."

I found the above post at this link;

[www.gaudiya-repercussions.com]

Quote
krishnakid
I can't say much without giving my identity away.

I was a Krishna kid. I grew up in the middle of it. I was in the school in Samoa that Mike Gabbard (Krishna Katha) ran. Later they moved the school to the Phillipines and some other disciple took over. Most of the stuff I read here is accurate, some might be out-of-date. I think some of the names mentioned might have left the cult. I've been away for a long time and don't know for sure. I only hear things second or third hand now. When I got old enough to make up my own mind I got out of it. The world is a much brighter place both spiritually and materially than most in Chris's world think.

I learned the philosophy better than most because from reading all the books by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, who Chris is suppose to be following, I do not believe what Chris has made even slightly resembles a true 'Krishna Conscious' or 'God Centered' society. It was more like a 'Chris Butler' centered society. With him as the deity not God as the center.

Everyone is supposed to live simply, in other words give most of your money or energy to Chris, or give everything. Meanwhile he lives like some kind of super billionaire demigod with people competing to be the one who gets the glorious privilege of drinking his footwater.

Millions of dollars and never even built one decent temple for God/Krishna?? What about feeding the poor (prasadam) or other charitable work recommended by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and all other God conscious gurus and saintly persons? What about the symptoms of a guru posted by Barbara?

What the heck do they do with all the money anyway? Down to Earth alone must rake in hundreds of thousands what to speak of all the money that gets donated to Chris from around the world. Where does the money go???

I guess Kailuaboy knows where the money goes. A free ride for the guru and queen bee. I bet he lives in some palace by now served by underlings ready to facilitate his every whim.

A self-realized soul is supposed to be detached from unneeded comforts. What a bunch of horse do.

If any others of my kind are watching this do yourself a favor and get out. Self realization does not end with Chris Butler. Krishna Consciousness may be real, but that cult is not. Wake up!!!

There are more of us out here than you think. There is help for you.

I found this old post from last year that I think a lot of us may have missed... some very interesting observations by someone brought up in the middle of it all.

8)

Very interesting forum with much wisdom. This thread awakens us all.

I left Ireland at 18 in search of the meaning of life and visited Jerusalem and the Holy Land, developed a great love for Jesus. I went to India on a deck class freighter from Kuwait to Bombay and was told to go and see 'God' who was Meher Baba by a traveller. I didn't go but I did read all about Meher Baba. He showed me love.

I visited the Kumbha mela in 1965 in Allahabad where I met an old Holy man sadhu who had a long white beard and hair and who I figured was God. He just glanced at me for a minute or two and I remember thinking, "who was that!" I started studying the Bhagavad Gita at the Kumbha and swam in the ganges. I developed a loving respect for the vedas.

I stayed at The Blue Tibetan in Katmandu and saw the Tibetans carrying their old folk out of Tibet and away from the persecution happening in their homeland. Little did I know then that some 35 years later my daughter would return to katmandu and marry a Tibetan monk who had escaped by trekking over the mountains disguised as a soldier.

So I visited the places of the big three...Jesus, Krishna and Buddha. I love them all even today.

I met and married a beautiful girl in Australia in 1967 and we went to NewZealand where we later met Siddha and Tusta about 1974/5. They had a big farm and chanted and danced and cooked feasts.

Then we met Iskcon devotees and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. By 1985 we had left all of them but now we had lots of friends who had also left. It's a con was our greeting when we talked of old days.

My beautiful girl passed away last year and I helped her on her journey for 24/7 for her final 5 months.

It was during this experience that I finally realised what is important, she only wanted to hear of certain things. Love...Love...Love.

In her final months she was visited by many devotees, swamis, Tibetan Geshes, a priest and her family. One Tibetan monk just said, "You can learn more in an hour doing a puja for your wife than reading 1000 books on dharma.

In my journey through this life I have realised and learned much. The most important I remind myself is this material energy is very very strong, both out there and in here (my body).

We are all going to be led astray by many organisations from Religion to governments to corporations. Enron was a cult. Football teams are cults. Designer clothes are cults. We have not to be afraid of them but to see what they are and your thread helps that come about.

Religion and War are the 2 biggest businesses out there.

When Krishna spoke to Arjuna and said "Abandon all varieties of religion and surrender unto Me." He was speaking to me as well. The interesting part of this thread is you can literally see and feel when the Love ended and the religion (cult) of Siddha and Iskcon was born. It was the same with Jesus and Buddha.

All involved in the delivering of an important message for our enlightenment eventually saw the creation of a religion (cult) where the message became once again lost. Those who run the greatest cult of all (the world matrix) know we will be overwhelmed by the illusory energy of the material world eventually. It is very real and is still very powerful. Those who wish to destroy the love message join and turn it into a cult, until even the founder cannot do anything to stop it.

My young sons spent several years in Vrindavan, one came to me with a dream. He told me Srila Prabhupada was trying to get up omto his seat but was unable. He turned to my son and said."There are too many people on my seat. What have I done?"

Just see that after up to 40 years later we are still working it out. That is the greatest part of this whole exercise. Many here are of the baby boomer generation and we ask questions. May we continue to do so. Thank you for speaking your minds and now hearing my voice.

I wish you all loving consciousness. Love [b:cb763c7d78]one[/b:cb763c7d78] and then loving the others comes easy.

Ballykisswonderful:

How does this specifically relate the subject matter here?

This thread is about the Chris Butler group.