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In a relationship, if there is a 50/50 chance of being rejected or accepted by the love object, the addiction is strongest and most difficult to break away from.
(from "Women who love too much", author unknown).

The relationship of devotee to guru seems to me to be very similar to any other addictive love relationship.

This trick of accepting and rejecting at random probably plays a big part in the retention of followers. It would be useful for any manipulator to know this, and Butler probably does.
Being aware of this can also help to free you from an addiction to a love object. I know this from personal experience.[/quote]


yes, so true.
and BTW...I have read Women Who Love To Much...great book!
I recall when HE finally became a "Householder" i.e. got married.
HIS female devottees were in part devestated I'm sure.
I on the other hand, already had my "addiction" man :roll:

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We are the ones who have to protect ourselves along with telling others the truth so they don't make the same mistakes we made. By sharing our experiences we may be able to prevent others from losing years of their life like Rip Van Winckle did sleeping a lifetime away

I TOTALLY agree! And it would seem that very thing..."sharing our experiences"...would be the purpose of this particular forum. People do seem to enjoy bouts of mental gymnastics on here as well. "What about this! What about that!". Hello dear friends... there is NO need for arguments here. Those of us who were initiated disciples of Chris Butler, and share that common experience, I think would simply like a place to talk about it all...n'est pas? It was a life altering experience for us all, and for some of us, it went on for years & years. Some people have completely dis-connected themselves over the years from even other ex-devotees, and have had no contact at all...no outlet, no way to perhaps help purge some of those emotions, or to try & make sense of it all. Please give us a chance to do that without having to battle our way through everyone else's side tracking off to who-knows-where. If you are not one of Butler's ex-disciples, but want to know what it was like to be involved in such a crazy thing...then listen, don't argue, just listen. You can't compare apples and oranges. This particular experience was what it was...period. Yes, I'm sure it also has many similarities of many other "cult" experiences across the planet. I think that's the point as well. WE KNOW THAT, we participated in one of them, and want to talk about it. But, [u:0cd5221de7]this[/u:0cd5221de7] is the one we want to talk about...otherwise, we'd be chatting on another forum...right? I am fortunate to be in contact with several ex Chris Butler diciples...we managed to stay friends after-the- fact. But that's not true for lots of people, and I think we need one another...most especially if you've not been able to totally make heads-or-tails out of the whole experience. I pray that most have though. My desire to post on here IS to share those past expereinces with all who feel the need...and also, (for example) to answer any genuine honest questions of anyone who is perhaps concerned about a loved one currently involved with this still...IF I can. The defining of "what is a cult" or "what is cult behavior & what is not", or "who is a cult & who is not", is NOT my concern at all. Again, my MAIN reason to post here is contact with ex-Chris Butler diciples. Can we not stick to that as a group discussion? I see some very frustrated people here trying to battle their way through discussions that have ZERO to do with the "Krsna group in Hawaii"....and that IS our topic...yes?

To the person that sent me a Private Message:
I see that the rules of this forum require that I have at least 10 approved post before I am allowed to send a P.M.
So, once I reach that number, I will be happy to respond to your message. I see from your "heading" that yes, we probably do know one another. Talk to you soon :wink:

Shanti:

Very good points.

That is the purpose of this thread.

BTW--Ten posts are required before PM because some folks just joined the board to spam people at their PM box.

There are a lot of people apparently that don't like the idea of dialog and seem to do anything to disrupt it.

A few people that have posted on this thread for questionable resasons have already been banned.

You stated purpose is a reason this board exists.

Wow! I can't beleive I found this forum! Seems like the mantra we Jagad Guru followers always had was that "We aren't like ISKCON, we aren't like those other cults, we are the mellow ones, our guru is not one of these warped fanatics, there is nothing to join or unjoin, we are not a cult." HA! Part of our brainwashing was the delusion that we were ever so much more "cooler" than the others. Other what? Other Krishna people, all the other people who were "karmis". Those who were still on the wheel of birth and death. Not us folks. We were superior. Even after being gone from the group for years, it takes a long time to get that it really was that bad and potentially worse.

Shanti, so you remember Taylor Camp. I used to stay there alot. They liked the free feasts and the drumming and chanting, but thought we were all idiots. They'd go home from a feast and make love to their old ladies all night long and laugh. The next day they would get high and laugh. I'd go there to listen and argue with this zen master who told everyone they didn't have a self. That was as strange of a culture as Jagad Guru's!

A few psychiatrists bought some land on Kauai and most of the Taylor Camp hippies moved there until the locals got pissed off at all the nudists and burned the main house down. I had dinner at one of the shrink's house where he explained he was doing a sociological experiment there. He was into Raja Yoga and Tantra yoga. A nice black man with an alcoholic white wife listening to Isaac Hayes "Sexual Healing". He saw the Kauai Krishna's as footnote in his doctoral thesis. He liked them as another sociological anamoly to observe.

Back then, I saw the 4 regulative pricipals as antidotes to drug abuse, unwed mothers on welfare, violence against man and animal through vegetarianism, and a myriad of other social problems -- even mental illness (ha, ha!).

I physically left the group a long time ago, but the cult mentality that was imprinted on me has been more difficult to get rid of. I've found myself in other groups and situations that were similar, till I realized the same patterns in the leader and my same tendencies to be a loyal follower. Even the fact that I find the stories of homophobia, politics, megalomania surprising shows me there is still a cult residue. I knew JG was a fraud years before I left. Why is that? Part of the cult trip.

But we were better than the others weren't we?

I'd like to know more about what led those of you to leave. For me there was no one incident. I do remember a guy coming back from the Phillipines who could not even talk about what happened there. He was clearly shaken and left shortly after. Another woman went to China with him on a secret mission and had a nervous breakdown. She was a talented singer and left because of the homophobia.

I do remember going door to door on Oahu selling "prasadam" cookies asking for donations for a drug rehab project that was supposed to open in Koolau. I always felt like I was lying. We gave out brochures with photos and testimonies from people on how chanting Hare Krishna got them off drugs. I knew for a fact that these testimonies were fake -- I knew the devotees who were put up to say those things. I felt I was doing good by passing out "holy food" to save their souls. Occasionally I'd guiltily eat one because we would get so damn hungry! I remember yogurt in the morning with over-ripe bananas they couldn't sell at Down to Earth and tofu something lunches. I remember having to walk miles because someone forgot to pick us up after a long, hot door to door day.

Needless to say, no center was ever opened. I never knew where all the money we collected went. Way back in the 70's Jagad Guru was courting (for the purposed of political influence) a pretty Japanese Kauai council woman to support his cause. She came to chant a few times, but never got the permits he needed to open a center. So politics was on his mind for years. I think they later had a falling out. One of his diciples, a local guy, did get into politics at JG's pushing. It ruined his marriage. He eventually left both politics and the group. He was a great guy and I missed him. He became a pariah and we were forbidden to contact him.

That fake rehab experience really stuck in my craw. Also when JG married the Chinese chick, I guess all the swooning ladies were upset. The rest of us saw a huge red flag. I left after that. He called me back and I returned stupidly again to work on another project. He had this way that would envelop you with a sense of purpose. You'd feel so much love from this guy. Can't explain the bliss you'd feel when you'd get a little attention. But when you would get blasted - that's another story. I just saw my life slipping away with no partner - no money - didn't want my kids to end up like all the kids on welfare or neglected by single moms and changing partners with an education worth little.

I remember one little boy who had autism that was neglected all the time. Everyone thought he was so high spiritually, a little saint. He never got special education services when he was very young. He ended up abused in a group home because his devotee mom and new devotee husband were too busy "serving" the master to take care of him. That was sh*t and bothers me the most. Lots of the kids were being raised like hippies, only they chanted. I don't know much about the school.

Sunglider, I am not so cynical though to believe that all the children ended up brain dead. I'd like to see and hear from them before I come to that conclusion. No doubt they will have a tough time in life. A lot of cult kids end up being whistle blowers.

I also think that the cult will die or change with JG's demise or his wife will start her own, as Katyayani has. A lot of people who left went on to find other Krishna gurus or other cults or got into drugs and alcohol.

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Very good points.
That is the purpose of this thread.
You stated purpose is a reason this board exists.

Good...glad I was understanding it's purpose.

I really WOULD like to hear from other ex-Butler diciples.
I haven't been watching this forum long at all, but there doesn't
seem to be a lot of those people posting...am I wrong?

I see nothing to be fearful of by posting on here at all.
I see in other posts that "fear" is mentioned. Chris did his job well!
Although he may have been a powerful figure in our past,
he's NOT an all-seeing-god-of-the universe! And his current diciples,
if they're anything like they always have been, will rant & rave telling us how "offensive" we all are, and their post will never make it here anyway. First & foremost, Butler is a business man. Our chatting back & forth doesn't concern him one bit, trust me. We are all lost in Maya as far as he's concerned :wink:

So, let's talk! What's your biggest fear? Some current Butler diciple will figure out "who you are" & gun you down pulling out of your driveway? Come on...let's get real here. We all believed in karma at one point...yes? Still do? I do. It IS NOT my karma to be involved with this Chris human any longer...it is past. However, WE all did bond together at one point...we, his diciples. I can understand if for some people, it's let sleeping dogs lie... I say, be with all this however you're comfortable. But, if you've been wanting / needing to re-connect, this seems to be an excellent place to either start, or else blow it all out & finally have it over with. Can't hurt to give it a try. At the very least, perhaps you could be helping someone else that has been there - or - someone who's considering going there.

One problem / issue I'm sure for a lot of us, is that it was not just about being a diciple of Butler and our relationship to him...even as HUGE as that was. It also effected so many other things as well...relationships with family, with spouces, with children...perhaps even injured some of these so severely that the wounds are yet to be healed. This era in our lives sent out many tendrils to invade every corner of our exsistance. Perhaps the pain of this extension of "damage done" is still too tender to speak of.
This was a huge thing...make no mistake about it. Huge.

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Shanti, so you remember Taylor Camp. I used to stay there alot. They liked the free feasts and the drumming and chanting, but thought we were all idiots. They'd go home from a feast and make love to their old ladies all night long and laugh. The next day they would get high and laugh. I'd go there to listen and argue with this zen master who told everyone they didn't have a self. That was as strange of a culture as Jagad Guru's!

Hey Hey :D
Yep, not only do I remember it, that was the first place I lived upon arriving on Kauai in 1969. But I was living elsewhere when I first encountered chanting & Chris Butler...I was still in Haena close by, but not IN Taylor Camp any longer. So I don't know the rest of the peoples reaction to those week-end feast. Personally (at first), I had a great time! Banging on drums, singing your heart out, dancing, and great food. The teaching & ceremony part was kinda beside the point for a long time for me.

Perhaps I am remembering this wrong, but I don't think so:
Taylor Camp was actually started by, & the property owned by, Elizabeth Taylor's brother, Howard Taylor....hence the name. I had dinner at his house in Hanalei, so I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this right.
The scoop was:
Some of the first hippies to arrive on Kauai were arrested for being vagrants...i.e. no money, no place to live etc. The largest hippie population in Hawaii at the time was on Maui. Howard Taylor heard of this, got a bit pissed off, bailed out said vagrants, and offered for them to "camp" on that piece of land, which he owned. Taylor Camp flourished.
When I reached there in 1969 it was pretty well established...maybe 4 or 5 tree houses, and several other configurations. I didn't live there long however...went back to the mainland for several months (family stuff), and when I returned, wound up living else where.

Was said Zen Master also a doctor of medicine :?:
If so, I knew him well!

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I'd like to know more about what led those of you to leave. For me there was no one incident.

When the double standards began to be glaring in my face,
and all the BS I had never been privy to before,
I was in the middle of. I ran like hell.



And yes... Zelig & just-googling...
i have changed this original post.
It was being "too informative" apparently from other's comments.
I didn't think I'd post here again...
but the more I thought about it, that original post had me concerned.
Protection of children's identities IS important.
In my eagerness to "share-all" I was not being careful enough.

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Also when JG married the Chinese chick, I guess all the swooning ladies were upset. The rest of us saw a huge red flag. I left after that.

Here's how the story went as it was told to me when it came down:
She was a diciple of Chris' in the P.I....married and with 3 children. Chris declared her to be his most sincere & humble of [u:90c1e09d68]all [/u:90c1e09d68]his diciples...and that he "needed" to become a householder, rather than remain single, because he had SO many female diciples (which was true) and it was NOT okay for him to be associating with all these single women as a single man. Hence, get married. So, he literally took this woman from her husband & 3 children & brought her back with him to Hawaii!

Believe it or not... that was somehow OK with most everyone at the time. Unbelievable now, but true at the time. Female diciples were jealous/distressed because they felt how un-worthy they were, for NOT being that "most sincere & humble" of his diciples, hence:he didn't pick them. I don't think your _normal_ everyday sense of jealousy was the reaction...it was more like: "look, I see once again how unworthy I really am". She was seen as some cosmic being, closer to god than all the rest. If Chris picked her out of thousands of his diciples, she must be pretty damn special. From a female diciples perspective at the time, she was to be respected & perhaps spiritiually envied.

Another real issue Shanti, is the protection of the children of former diciples involved. I refuse to mention names, unless they are public figures. It's true that JG is immune to criticism because he is delusional, but no one knows what his current crop of followers may do. Everyone has a different experience of the group and everyone has a right to privacy, especially the children born into the group who are now in their early 30's and younger. For some ex-diciples, it is a matter of embarassment, not fear or hurt. Some may have become public figures themselves and do not want their stupid past to be exposed.

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Seems like the mantra we Jagad Guru followers always had was that "We aren't like ISKCON, we aren't like those other cults, we are the mellow ones, our guru is not one of these warped fanatics, there is nothing to join or unjoin, we are not a cult." HA! Part of our brainwashing was the delusion that we were ever so much more "cooler" than the others. Other what? Other Krishna people, all the other people who were "karmis". Those who were still on the wheel of birth and death. Not us folks. We were superior. Even after being gone from the group for years, it takes a long time to get that it really was that bad and potentially worse.

Honey...I am loving your post!
Please forgive if I am responding to lots you have to say.
It's ALL good stuff :wink:

I think we really DID know we were "joining up". If you humbly asked to become an initiated diciple of Chris'...you KNEW you were hooking up big time. Yes, the myth was that we were NOT like ISKON... but I always felt that the reason was: that we didn't need to run around in robes with shaved heads & chant at airports to get the message of "love KRSNA" out to the public. That there were much more everyday mellow ways to do that without isolating ourselves, making ourselves stand out to the public as freaks. But yes, we were led to believe that we had now passed beyond all those that were still on the karmic wheel...I don't know if that made us feel superior or not...perhaps just grateful??? Bad. That's a huge word. I don't think we were BAD to have attempted this...I think for lots of people it was a sincere soulful search. What was absolutely in the BAD catagory, is what happened to us in the process. How we were used & sometimes abused. Led around like so many worker bees & cattle.

A very effective technique to control people is to make them feel how screwed up they really are, (which lots of us felt) how much they need help, (which lots of us were seeking) take away all sense of ego & pride,(which lots of us saw as a barrier between ourselves & godhead) and offer "THE" path to being okay. All the elements were perfect. Plus Chris can be charming, a great speaker & motivator, a minor accomplished yogi, (make you see visions if he chooses for example), had an answer for every inquiring troubled mind, & was just plain old a born leader type.

Think about it...
He had the meditation center on Maui...with hundreds of followers. Got hooked up with ISKON, and in the process, brought [u:e6523f2d42]IN with him [/u:e6523f2d42]most of these hundreds of followers from Maui! A major event! Chris had instant-presto acclaim, even in ISKON. He was loved & hated all at the same time. These ISKON boys were NOT happy campers to have someone walk in & have instant prestige, I can assure you. He was just one charismatic SOB...& we all fell under his spell.

You know personally of screwy deceitful things that you participated in...like the cookie thing. My dear, there were too many to even count! The attitude was by the _higher-ups_ : hey, they're just karmis, take their money for the work & glory of KRSNA. They'll be helping spread his message, whether they know it or not. They are "rendering service" without even knowing it...it's okay to do whatever we need to. It was crazy my dear...any time some organization comes up with "the end justifys the means", no matter what that is...that's trouble with a capitol T.
And yes, the more envolved you got, the deeper you got in, the crazier it became. I have personally seen Chris put on an Army jacket & cap to go into a local store on Kauai to cash some kind of welfare check, saying to all in the car...'they'll cash this even without I.D. because I have on this uniform, these karmis, they love this soldier stuff.' ...and laugh it up big time with all there. Yep, we duped them again!

Honey...[b:e6523f2d42]this really was crazy[/b:e6523f2d42] and not okay.
Money, business, & the building of an empire. The vibration of the Hare Krishna mantra may indeed be very cool, especially when you've got a kirtan going of hundreds of people singing, dancing & going nuts...
but, so is good old rock 'n roll :wink: