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shanti
... Yes, they guard HIM quite seriously. I know for a fact, his body guards carry guns. No rumor, fact...I know these people.

Sounds more like a bunch of gangsters than a religious organization?



:shock:

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And it would seem that very thing..."sharing our experiences"...would be the purpose of this particular forum. People do seem to enjoy bouts of mental gymnastics on here as well ... [b:6f679c3635]Those of us [/b:6f679c3635]who were initiated disciples of Chris Butler, and share that [b:6f679c3635]common experience[/b:6f679c3635], I think would simply like a place to talk about it all ...

I've no agenda coming to this forum. I landed here almost by accident I believe I mentioned in my earlier posts. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy finding this forum. Like most of you, I had some share of grief and even threats from this group and felt a solace among co sufferers. However, I share very little interest in sentimentalism, not that there is anything wrong with that, as I too shared with you my happy and not-so-happy moments in Horri-bol. (One posting though did not make it - my response to just googling - I don't why, technical or rulings, but I can't remember putting in any rants or endorsement. I wanted to know more info about Chibiyabos, and expressed my love for Chris' music, but not closed to endorsing it. I give credit where credit is due.) Anyway, I thought this forum has more pressing issues other than our past experiences, and I will not apologize for being quite strong about the children which I sadly regret may not be as pressing as I expected here.

Well, you all had been very helpful and I wish you ex-members all happiness in your newfound group. I'm sure there are other people like me, who do not stick to conventional thinking. I guess it applies to anything - you don't stick to a specific definition of things. What is brainwashing to one may not be so to others. There's nothing wrong with that. We are too quick to judge the cultists as black and white in thinking, but isn't the above close? There is a broad variation of thinking and all is not necessarily agreeable, but nevertheless be freely expressed. That exactly is the difference between a cult and the free world. The free market is where all sorts of opinions are appreciated, and is very tough to regulate. But out of the chaos come learning which again vary from one person to another. That's how people and even groups continue to evolve, through these variations, often times chaotic mind wars. Unfortunately, it's when regulations become more rigid and narrowly defined that learning become outdated and one-dimensional.

I enjoy so much reading about your experiences and your understandable hate of Chris and his group, they all are very, very helpful, and also I understand the feelings, but people outside our shared sentiment are more interested in facts. When I first entered this forum, the info on the affected families attracted me most. We need not dovetail our thinking to specifics, like if you believe all the followers are brainwashed, fine, but for those who differ otherwise, branding them as apologists or challenging their views as totally wrong is ... I say, here we go again. Nobody would convince me that everybody there is there for the guru alone. Most people I knew had the same suspicion as us, and I will bet my neck that they were there for the congregation. Even if Chris is gone, these people will still be there, whoever the leader is. These are the same people who will constantly join groups, not necessarily cults, but anything they find any sense of belonging, and this forum is not exempted. In fact, if you still find sense of belonging to any group, then you may not have left Chris after all. Physically, yes. But Chris may still be lurking in your minds. May not be Chris but the guru figure.

There's nothing wrong in belonging to a group but as long as you take it on your own terms and your reasoning always intact and independent. By the way, I never believe until this day that I was ever brainwashed. I joined on my own accord, and I don't make any excuses; I'm responsible and accountable for my acts and for people I brought to the group. I loved the movement, but my reason had always been intact and when challenged I left, just like that. If that is a fact, then you may have to look back and redefine your meanings of your anti-cult views. This is not an attack but a mere hope of finding a more meaningful discourse. I believe I'm never alone. But the children are entirely different, they are obviously being indoctrinated.

If I'm going to be challenged for saying this, or worse, censored, then I rest my case. I don't expect to make sense at all in an environment, not similar, but quite close to the one I left behind more than twenty years ago. Since I left that phony group I also left my rah-rah, groupie mentality there. My loyalty is to reason alone.

How do you get over being disconnected from the rest of the human race for the last 3 decades? To check out just how spiritually advanced his "Divine Grace's" interpretation is (much more advanced than the original texts), you need to compare the original ancient text of the Bhagavad-Gita with the old bugger's "Bhagavad~Gita As It Is". Firstly, it is about 3 times as long as the original text. Why? Because it is chock full of the old bugger's extremely long and detailed footnotes called "Purports" which make it very clear what a snail you are and how everyone else is "unauthorized" or "contaminated by material infection" or "ignorant" or "in bondage" "or "miserable" or "bewildered" or in a "diseased condition of life" and of course there are "many persons who cannot understand". For sure, his "Divine Grace" seems to go back and back to this concept of the "highest perfection", such an individual then becomes eligible to enter the abode of the Supreme Lord. Of course, this has no parallel at all with all the self interested Christians who want to escape the fiery wraths of hell and book their seat in cushy Heaven. Just no comparison at all, these Christians (spiritually less advanced) just want to look after themselves and ensure their own "salvation", while the devotees have no ulterior motives at all, yessir! No, they just want to enter and maintain a relationship of pure love with the Supreme Being (and treat as outsiders the rest of his creation, as materially contaminated envious demons). No, no, they have no interest at all in escaping the miserable wheel of reincarnation. They just want to "love" God. Because they are so spiritually advanced, they realise that God is a real person and is capable of being loved, while the rest of the human race because they are so ignorant, think that God sits on a thrown and has a long grey beard, and that he is incapable of being loved as he is such a distant and unlovable figure. The devotees because they are so smart, privileged and spiritually advanced, realise that this is not the case and are because of their special position able to enter into a real and loving relationship with God. The rest of the human race are dogs who are doomed to reincarnate over and over again, until they wise up. As a disciple past, I have found in my experience that ALL PEOPLE, spiritual or not, when you get on down low, have their own self interests and I repeat their own "self interests" at heart, including Chris, when it comes down to all, including yummy food (and plenty of it, well prepared), obedient servants (not allowed to use their brains), and beach front living. When I read the original text of the ancient text there was a sense of light and lightness and most of all simplicity. The Bhagavad~Gita As It Is, according to his "Divine Grace" is heavy, heavy, heavy and presupposes a situation of lowly ignorant materialistic snails who make up about 99.9% of the human race. On his reckonings, I calculate that about 1 person in this decade on the planet has a chance to get to the spiritual abode: "himself". Even Chris himself might not make it as he did not follow the old bugger's instructions to the t. Chris knows what he needed to do, and why he broke away from Iskon and ultimately his "Divine Grace's" instructions. So if thats where you want to go and yack to the old bugger and munch on Indian food and beans for the rest of eternity, I say good luck to you. This is a hindu religion I dont care how much they deny it. It is from the land of India. This is the land that gave birth to it. It gives a break to those who have not had much of a break in life: hippies, crooks, dysfunctional, welfare recipients, out of workers, new agers, colonic irrigation fanatics, yoga sirens, travellers who can never settle down, veggie stinky herbal types, to say that they are more "spiritually advanced" and much more superior than the rest of the human race. The fact that he chose 5 child molestors as his "annointed ones" is of profound significance. It proves that he did not "have the voice of God". Can you imagine where Christianity would be today, if 5 of Jesus' disciples turned out to be Nazarene racketeers and kiddy molestors? Anyway my respects to all of you who have had a gutsful of tofu burgers, and 3 hour long chants!

And if you want to know why many of them are not posting, it is because they are "brain dead". Some will in the future, but for the moment, postings will be restricted to those who choose to use their brains and have the courage to look over the hedge. The rest are simply "brain dead". They have to be. This is their life. It is the life they have chosen and to deny it, takes an enormous amount of courage that most are not capable of. Because it will deny their very existence and require them to start again. From the word GO, with no "Big Daddy" to tell them that they are "rotten to the core".

Sunglider:

You seem to be stuck to some extent, between your old group thinking and moving on.

It appears you still need to do some sorting out.

Your repeated refrain that there was no "brainwashing" in the group and that people made their own independent decisions without undue influences demonstrates this.

No one has said all "cults" are the same.

Every group is different, all "cults" are not the same.

Cults have different leaders and practice different things based upon different doctrines. They also do harm to different degrees and are not all equally destructive.

But the dynamics of destructive cults and their essential structure of internal authority is typcially the same.

There is typically a charismatic leader that lacks meaningful accountability and who is the driving and defining force of the group. He or she manipulates the members often exploiting them. The members of the group defer much of their decision making and value judgements to the leader. And he or she dominates them culminating in undue influence.

Based upon the posts here it appears that the Butler group fits this pattern.

Again, you apparently need to sort this out.

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whitemoon
. Of course, this has no parallel at all with all the self interested Christians who want to escape the fiery wraths of hell and book their seat in cushy Heaven. Just no comparison at all, these Christians (spiritually less advanced) just want to look after themselves and ensure their own "salvation", while the devotees have no ulterior motives at all, yessir! No, they just want to enter and maintain a relationship of pure love with the Supreme Being (and treat as outsiders the rest of his creation, as materially contaminated envious demons). No, no, they have no interest at all in escaping the miserable wheel of reincarnation.

... This is a hindu religion I dont care how much they deny it. It is from the land of India. This is the land that gave birth to it. It gives a break to those who have not had much of a break in life: hippies, crooks, dysfunctional, welfare recipients, out of workers, new agers, colonic irrigation fanatics, yoga sirens, travellers who can never settle down, veggie stinky herbal types, to say that they are more "spiritually advanced" and much more superior than the rest of the human race. ....

LOL :lol: THIS IS SO TRUE!


:lol:

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rrmoderator
Sunglider:

Your repeated refrain that there was no "brainwashing" in the group and that people made their own independent decisions without undue influences demonstrates this.

For a long time I did not like the word "BRAINWASHING" and I would convince myself that i was never, ever "Brainwashed".... however, looking back at all that happened, I think that BRAINWASHING is actually the correct word to describe myself at that time.

For instance, for many years I totally believed that I HAD TO GO DOOR-TO-DOOR and tell people about reincarnation, etc. and I would feel TOTALLY GUILTY if I was not doing this.

This feeling of total guilt, I now believe, was due to past BRAINWASHING, and had a very negative effect on my life at that time.

:idea: THE OXFORD DICTIONARY: BRAINWASHING: Clearing the mind of established ideas by persistent suggestion and indoctrination.

The "persistent suggestion and indoctrination" was of course coming from Siddhas many, many lectures that we would listen to every day.

:(

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shanti
[
Okay...the "Chinese chick" .... So, he literally took this woman from her husband & 3 children & brought her back with him to Hawaii!

Believe it or not... that was somehow OK with most everyone at the time. Unbelievable now, but true at the time.

At that time I never knew she was married with three children. I thought that she was a single woman and that everything was legitimate. I think I was one of those blind followers who was maybe "out of the loop" ...

But, don't forget, there was also a rule put forward by Siddha himself that GOSSIP WAS NOT A GOOD THING, and I think that many of the disciples in the USA, like me, did not know the fact about her being married with 3 kids(???) (or was it just ME who was totally out of the loop???)

:wink: THANKS FOR THESE POSTS!

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shanti
I have personally seen Chris put on an Army jacket & cap to go into a local store on Kauai to cash some kind of welfare check, saying to all in the car...'they'll cash this even without I.D. because I have on this uniform, these karmis, they love this soldier stuff.' ...and laugh it up big time with all there. Yep, we duped them again!

This could explain the former posts about it being Siddha's idea to send some of his politicos off to war[/size:711e386ca4] to get more votes???[/size:711e386ca4]

:?:

I cant help laughing ...

This group is so incompetent that you almost cant take it seriously ... except for all the kids who are so seriously uneducated that they can't spell a correct word if their lives depended on it ... I know and so do you all know who know ...

On a more serious note, I think that we have to get back to where it all started, the old boy, recognises inbetween, now and then, with a huge gasp, that the Christian text is authentic, I think inbetween every 1 million words of his wordy treatise.

And what does the Bible say, read by an unbeliever such as myself: The Bible says that you will recognise false prophets: Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

His fruit was child molestation, racketeers, shame, scandal, misery and unbearable suffering for the youth and children of his generation. Lives were shamefully destroyed. These kids were sent to schools overseas and suffered hideously by the hands of his chosen.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits ..."