Because the Truth Shall Set You Free ...

Whitemoon:

Are you referring specifically to Chris Butler and his group?

Or are you commenting on ISKCON?

This thread is actually specifically for comments about the Butler group.

There are other threads about ISKCON.

You might start new one specifically about ISKCON.

Let's try to keep this one focused upon the Butler group.

To understand the Chris Butler Group, you need to understand Iscon, as this was the foundation from which Chris emerged, with all the trappings of what he had learned. The Iscon group gave birth to the Guru Chris however much he might deny it. He didnt have an easy time there and was made to clean toilets by the Krishnas. Those trappings and indoctrinations he carries to this day. He bows down to his spiritual master, the now deceased Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (top dog in Iscon) and he still does to this day. There is no clear separation between the two organistions as much as they would like to say, as far as spirituality is concerned, the only clear distinction being that between "conflicting egos" and "power struggles".

Chris broke away from the Iscon mother tree in the early 1970s (good timing as that was when all the corruption started to set in which makes me shake my head as the old man only died in the late 70s, therefore as head of the organization this make him accountable), and nourished the root that we are talking about today but nevertheless its origins, its life and its bones are from the original Iscon Garden of Eden. Even today the head of the house in Chris' stable is Iscon's Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Chris has watered the plants that he took from the old Iscon gardens and fertilised and managed a new breed of plants. Nevertheless, the roots of the plants came from the "old neighbourhood".

There are invisible chains going back to the old neighbourhood: to understand the present and its personality and what he is doing, you must look to and understand the past.

Both Iscon and the Butler Group focus on one thing: the message of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Their spiritual masters. His Divine Grace headed up Iscon. Chris left Iscon but carried on his teachings. So it all goes back to the father of the teachings who was the head of Iscon. From the teachings, flow the outcomes ... And then there is the question of who is next in the succession line as all of these guys are supposed to have been appointed down a long spiritual line ... no one really knows who is the one. Chris says he is the one. Iscon of course would disagree. So how do you separate the thorns from the roses?

Whitemoon:

OK.

But if you want to go on discussing ISKCON start another thread about that.

This thread is about the Butler group.

Your recent comments are connected to the Butler group and please try to stay focused on Butler and his group specifically on this thread.

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zelig
Another real issue Shanti, is the protection of the children of former diciples involved. I refuse to mention names, unless they are public figures. It's true that JG is immune to criticism because he is delusional, but no one knows what his current crop of followers may do. Everyone has a different experience of the group and everyone has a right to privacy, especially the children born into the group who are now in their early 30's and younger. For some ex-diciples, it is a matter of embarassment, not fear or hurt. Some may have become public figures themselves and do not want their stupid past to be exposed.

"It's true that JG is immune to criticism because he is delusional, but no one knows what his current crop of followers may do"

So what does that mean? Should we be afraid of his current crop of followers? Please do not misunderstand, I'm not being sarcastic at all, I [u:813e47d830]really am just asking your opinion[/u:813e47d830]. If we criticize Chris, they will be watching these post & come after us? If that is true, or even a possibility, then we shouldn't be posting any thing at all. I don't think my intention of posting here was to simply bash Chris...but to share my own personal experience of being his diciple. And no, it's not just mere sentiment, as someone suggested. Now I am being very serious: if anyone who is posting here has knowledge of, or even suspects that we or our families are in "danger" by doing this...they should speak up...ASAP. I personally have not taken that seriously...but, perhaps I should be???

Re: the children, I totally agree. I know my children who were around all this DO NOT particularly want it to be common knowledge that either they were subject to all this, or that their parents were. It's not a part of their past that they readily share with friends, boyfriends / girlfriends, co-workers etc. First off, they feel if someone wasn't involved they would never truly understand, and just think them wacko! It has become like the classic family skeleton in the closet. Once explanations were given to my children when they asked about certain things: events, time-lines etc...for my family anyway, it is not a subject of discussion any longer...hasn't been for many years.

You bring up a good point:
" For some ex-diciples, it is a matter of embarassment, not fear or hurt. Some may have become public figures themselves and do not want their stupid past to be exposed."

I guess I had not really considered the embarrassment factor. I think I see my own self, at least in part, as a sum total of my experiences & what I learned from them. But I am not in public life, (for example) and if I were, I may very well not want this part of my varied past to be subject of conversation, or to be thought "less of" because of it, or criticized because of it.

Again, I think we all have to think, react, & come to terms with all this in whatever way makes us comfortable & okay. Let sleep dogs lie, may work the best for lots of ex-diciples. It has for me for a long time! I just happened across this forum... The post I saw seemed so honest & open...and I was very tempted in jump right in. Like...oh my god, ex-Chris diciples are REALLY talking about him & their experiences! This I had never seen before. Of course, I'd never looked for it either.

I guess a big question is: what can we accomplish by doing this?
Give an outlet for people to vent about that experience? Give people an opportunity to perhaps find lost friends? Give out information to perhaps inform someone that's considering becoming a diciple of Chris' ?
What is the greater purpose and good of this forum? I thought I understood a couple days ago, now I'm not so sure. Comments please.

The good of any message board is to share information, develop a resource of information, offer support and afford an exchange of ideas.

This board provides that and is moderated to avoid spamming and avoid harassment here by anyone through angry flaming.

There is no real threat to anyone at this board as each member remains anonymous and thus completely protected.

It's wise not to divulge details about yourself here that might tend to expose your identity and also be careful regarding the PM communication with people you don't know.

This board has been around for awhile and no one has ever been hurt through it.

Often cults make threats, but they are typically bluffing for the purpose of intimidation and not serious.

Very few cults have ever historically carried out violent acts against former members.

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Sounds more like a bunch of gangsters than a religious organization?

Were you around for the warehouse days in Honolulu? I remember at one point right before I left the island, walking through metal detector doorways that had newly been installed, like at an airport, to get through the door leading down the hall to the main room. Yes, Chris' safety was taken VERY seriously. I don't know if there had been lots of threats on his life...but would not be surprised...especially since he had a talent for bashing other organizations & religions in general. His personal body guards did indeed carry guns...they had for a long time by then. I knew one of them.

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Anyway, I thought this forum has more pressing issues other than our past experiences, and I will not apologize for being quite strong about the children which I sadly regret may not be as pressing as I expected here.

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When I first entered this forum, the info on the affected families attracted me most.

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...the children are entirely different, they are obviously being indoctrinated.

Please forgive me, but I am unclear as to which children you are speaking of? Children that are currently involved in Chris' group? I know that schools were being set up for children of diciples when I left in 1984. I even taught at one on Ohau for awhile. I have not read all the past post on this forum to perhaps understand your distress and concern. If it does concern children that are currently in one of Chris' schools... are you aware of anything we can do as _outsiders_ ???

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I enjoy so much reading about your experiences and your understandable hate of Chris and his group, they all are very, very helpful, and also I understand the feelings, but people outside our shared sentiment are more interested in facts.

Dear Sunglider...

Exactly what "facts" do you propose we talk about, or make available for others to read? If you're wanting us to discuss the facts of what Chris & his organization are up to now... I for one, don't have a clue! Perhaps I misunderstood... but I thought that by sharing our experiences of "life with Chris"... those [u:cd771da16b]were[/u:cd771da16b] informative facts...even for someone outside this discussion group of ex-disciples. Maybe I'm wrong. You seem to be saying that our sharing of experience is mere sentiment alone, and not helpful at all. Of course we all view things differently. How do you give facts about someone like Chris Butler, or what goes on being involved in ANY organization of this sort, without relating your experience of it??? Otherwise it would seem that you could just invent a hypotothese of what's-up without anything to back it up...right? I'm not attacking you. I'm just unclear as to how you think we should be approaching this.