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regina
".... at Dharma Farms. The people at the house are so into it, almost to the point where they cannot mesh with the "real world" anymore and they have no desire to do so. Two of the youngest people (25 and 31) who are here seem the most devoted and I found out that neither one of them has a close relationship with their families and they don't have any other ties outside of this community. Whenever we go to kirtan, I am asked about my beliefs and I am encouraged to listen to Guruda's talks and watch Jagad Guru's lectures on video and basically get into it. "



from: mindy's journal www.angelfire.com/md3/aloha/

Read entire journal entries for a view on what an unsuspecting volunteer farm worker is confronted with. And this bright young woman's responses are worth noting as a healthy reaction to B.S.

Thanks for that link. When I lived in Hawaii there were lot's of Krishna people there, but the only ones that I knew who lived such a religious centered life were the ones living at the iskcon temple in honolulu, which since the mid 1980's has always been less then 20 people. Krishna devotess from all over america have moved to Hawaii. Almost all them were into smokin ganja, partying, going to all the new age hippie stuff that goes down on the outer islands, or working regular jobs, and just mainly focusing on enjoying life and having a good time. None of them that I know live life like the Noni folks. Of the many many Krishna people I know across the Hawaiian islands none were living like what that blog by mindy describes. There are many many gay and lesbian krishna people, a large percentage of them have moved to the islands as well.

I wasn't surprised by the hate speech by Guruda towards gays and lesbians. Chris Butler's group is famous in Hawaii for being the most vocal anti gay activists on the islands. I remember the public anti gay campaigns by Mike Gabbard and his wife (the guy and girl running for office) he was said to be the owner or part owner of the groups main health food store/restaurant in honolulu. I remember after some really vocal tv ads and other vocal anti gay activism that the gay community deciided to picket the health food store. They said they wouldn't leave until Gabbard gave up the store or something along those lines. That store is the main health food center for oahu, which has a very large health food population. The picketing made it so bad for business that supposedly Gabbard gave up ownership of the store in order for the picketing to stop, that's what the press reported anyways.

It's funny how they have such a bad attitude towards gays and lesbians. If they knew their history they might take a different tact i.e When Bhaktivedanta first came to america and before he had any followers he ran into 2 gay male friends on the streets of soho near greenwich village in N.Y.C 1966. Those 2 guys had just gotten back from a trip to india and were shocked to see an indian sadhu in robes walking down soho. They stopped him and started talking and became his friends. They in turn invited their circle of friends to "meet the swami". Those 2 became the very first hare krishna devotees in america. One would become infamous and go to prison on a variety of charges including taking part in a murder plot, and the other would die from aids I think in tijuana. But that was years to come in the future. Those 2 and their circle of friends were the original hare krishna devotees, they were the ones that got Bhaktivedanta his first temple, edited and published his first books (one of the first 2 gay men was a college english teacher) it is because of them that another gay man became very close to Bhaktivedanta i.e Alan Ginsberg.

Alan Ginsberg had been to India and had learned to chant Hare Krishna from some other group then Bhaktivedanta's religion. He had a bought harmonium while there and brought it back to america with him. It's a british instrument that was made popular in india amongst religious sects. It's a smalll hand pumped organ that sits on the ground. Before he ever met Bhaktivedanta and before their was an iskcon Ginsberg would play the harmoinum and chant hare krishna reguarly at parties and public events and readings he did. When he met Bhaktivedanta they formed a very close bond. It is because of Ginsberg that iskcon went from a few dozen people into a big deal. He would introduce Bhaktivedanta to the famous hipster crowd. Alan Ginsberg is sometimes called the guding light or father of the counter culture of the 1960's. He was a very big deal back then in the nascent new age hippie world. He organized a "mantra rock concert" during the summer of love in San Francisco and got the major Bay area bands to play as a benefit for the first bay area Krishna temple off of Haight street. All the major figures of that scene were there, from Tim Leary to Owsley. Here's the poster

[img:a2f2a11367]http://xs201.xs.to/xs201/06236/Krish.jpg[/img:a2f2a11367]

The Grateful Dead then put a statue of Narasingha (a revered half man half lion avatar of Krishna in the Hare Krishna religion) on the cover of their first album. See [upload.wikimedia.org] it's that stone statue in the center of the album. Because of the fame they got from the Haight Ashbury scene George Harrison heard about them and wanted to meet Bhaktivedanta. Once he became a hare krishna the cult got even bigger.

If you want to read something hilarious try this:
[www.law.umkc.edu]

It's the court transcript of Alan Ginsberg's testimony at the Chicago 7 trial after the riots in 1968. All he wants to do is talk about Hare Krishna and the judge gets mad.

So my point is that it was gay people who started the Hare Krishna society and who made it acceptable to the counter culture, once that happened it grew really big really fast. Iskcon has always attracted lots of gays and lesbians and they have an association. See [www.galva108.org] and also [groups.yahoo.com] Also the single largest monetary contributer to iskcon over the years is a very wealthy bi-sexual man. (no names please) Bhaktivedanta's personal travelling servant/right hand man (the most highly coveted position in iskcon) for many years was an openly gay man named Upendra. Openly gay men were given leadership positions and became some of the biggest leaders during and after Bhaktivedanta left. Although there is a small contingent of anti gay people in iskcon, the vast majority are not. So it was surprising when I first saw what Chris Butler's attitude is.


Also mindy mentioned the derogatory attitude towards judaism and christianity. That also is unique to the Chris Butler group. For some reason in all the Butler videos I have seen on public access t.v in Hawaii he always spends time talking about Christianity and denigrating Christians. People who got their Krishna religion from iskcon don't do that, in fact they usually are very pro christianity and rarely speak about judaism, but never in a negative light. Bhaktivedanta repeatedly drilled into their heads that the other mainstream religions besides hinduism are all bonafide and not to be critical of them. So you don't see that from ex iskcon people. Bhaktivedanta rarely talked about other religions and it was almost alwasy when he was having conversations with priests or other religious leaders, he was never negative in that regard.


That blog was only surprising to me on showing the intensity of the Butler group's obession with their religion to the point of doing nothing else with their time. Is it like that in all the little Butler groups spread through the islands?


To Janus

You may disagree but people had different experiences in diferent places, what I wrote is the truth as I experienced it. As to how I know about "insider" stuff. I was close friends with Jayatirtha for a couple years after he left iskcon. He was the most popular and successful of the iskcon gurus post Bhaktivedanta. He ruled over the U.K, large parts of Europe, parts of the U.S, Africa and India. Then he was forced out in 1981 because he had girlfriends, he was getting high, and he was friends with an old indian guru who was banned in iskcon. Those were the official reasons. The unofficial reasons were because he had the most profitable "zone". He was raking in more cash then anybody else. So he left and took a handful of followers with him. I had already left by then. He and his crew of new agey hippie stoned out Krishna crew descended into marin county after that. I was visiting from maui some friends in california and we decided to go up and visit them. We had heard rumors of acid fueled parties and whatnot and we wanted to see what was going on. So we called them up and got invited to stay with them. They had a gorgeous villa in the mountains that used to be the italian consulate and was once owned by Al Capone. I made close friends with Jayatirtha and his crew and I learned a lot of stuff from them about the inner workings of iskcon leadership. They were into getting high smoking good quality ganja, they were cultivating their own magic mushrooms as well. Jayatirtha was quite popular with the whole crowd of famous hallucinogenic authors and that whole scene. He was good friends with Terence McKenna and Timothy Leary. Before he joined iskcon he had lived on Leary's commune at Millbrook N.Y.

He was a cool hippie new agey kinda guy at the time I knew him, I visited him and stayed a while a few more times. Later I heard he got weird in the head and started to think he was a reincarnation of jesus or krishna or something. I was on maui when I heard he had been killed by an ex-disciple who was off in the head. The guy had gone psycho evidently because Jayatirtha left his wife for another girl. The guy had it in his head that Jayatirtha was an avatar of Krishna and that his wife was an avatar of Radha. When they split up the guy (who was a total acid freak) was despondent. In Krishna theology Radha and Krishna are eternal male and female aspects of God acting as lovers for eternity. He believed that he had been fooled into believing that Jayatirtha and his wife were incarnations of God because Jayatirtha was some kind of magical demon. So somehow he ended up alone with Jayatirtha in England, killed him with a big knife and then cut his head off. When the police arrived he was sitting on the floor crying and cradeling the head in his lap. He didn't go to prison as far as I remember but he did go to a mental hospital for some length of time then was released.

There was a story in a famous book called "Monkey on a Stick" about iskcon. In it there is a chapter on Jayatirtha and how he and a few of his friends drowned a guy in a lake in Nepal. The story goes that the guy wanted money and was going to tell the Nepalese authorities about the groups drug use if he didn't get some money from them. That never happened. That story was invented by someone in iskcon leadership who wanted a wealthy person who used to be in iskcon and was giving money to Jayatirtha to stop, and go back to iskcon and give them the money. They feared Jayatirtha at that time, he was becoming a popular figure. So that story was fed to the authors of that book. It was a stupid unrealistic story. Jayatirtha was close friends with the Nepalese royal family who ruled Nepal, that family are Krishna worshippers and they have always been close to iskcon ever since iskcon opened up shop in Nepal. Plus drugs are common in Nepal, the only people who were busted were busted in order for the cops to get bribes to get them out of jail.

The other stories in that book are all true though. And many that have not been told. Stuff like a recently deceased leader who was the first black guru in iskcon (head of the princeton university african american society) and who ruled over much of africa. He was very popular, made a chief in Africa and was friends with Mandela and many other African dignitaries. He had thousands of disciples and published many books on new age topics and Krishna topics. But there was a dark side to him as well. He tried to get a girl killed by locals in Uganda (or some other country) after he was through having an affair with her. He was a swami and swamis are supposed to be celibate, if they have a girlfriend they lose all their credibility (think jim bakker). The girl was not into being treated like dirt and was threatening to tell the tale if the swami wouldn't help her financially (she was broke in Africa having spent all her money on the service of the swami) Another girl had a similar tale but without the sex. She knew of several affairs with various Krishna girls of the swami which were evidently quite common for him in Africa. She had spent a lot of her own money helping set up ashramas for the swami in various parts of Africa. He then "borrowed" a substantial sum of money from her which he promised to pay back claiming he had to go to india and then would come back and repay her. She had gotten the money from an insurance settlement in the states. Well the swami never paid here back and she was left in Africa destitute. She had problems with the African Krishna devotees who resented her because they thought she was rich. So she was forced out of the ashramas and was homeless for a while. An indian man helped her out eventually. Meanwhile she was trying to get to the swami in india and the america. But he was playing dumb claiming she had given him the money. She was pissed off. She had dedicated her life to helping establish ashramas in Africa spending her own money and then loaning him all of her money. She threatened to spill the beans on his affairs if he didn't cough up some cash. It was shortly after that when she claims she was attacked and almost killed.

Anyways years later the swami develops cancer and dies a slow agonizing death. He was celebrated the whole while by iskcon as some kind of saint. Even though by that time his misdeeds were known by many people including the leaders. They even want to build him a special "samadhi" tomb on their property at their world headquarters in india. An honor reserved for saints.

There's much more to tell.

Also my sources are numerous ex leaders of iskcon whom I know and are always eager to dish on the past. Also you can go to various hare krishna forums and most of them are all to glad to dish the dirt to anyone who asks. Other then that I keep myself educated on what's going down in da hood.

Hi Maui:

thanks for some of the history of ISKON ... Stories of people who started off maybe in a religious state of mind but as time progressed, stories of power, control, manipulation, money, madness and some bizarre horror stories.

It certainly makes one question the validity of their religious process. It seems as if people who are dependent on others for their livelihood and who form small groups ("cults") end up with some kind of "gang" mentality and the so-called religion takes second place to power struggles and control of other people.

As for the Butler group, no horror stories of that magnitude can be told, as far as some of us former members can remember...

Regarding the subject of homosexuality, the Oxford dictionary has the following definition:


BIGOT: [/size:fbba93eeba] one who holds irrespective of reason, & attaches disproportionate weight to, some creed or view.[/size:fbba93eeba]

As for the Butler group, they certainly do seem to hold "disproportionate weight" to the condemnation of homosexuals. Especially as I thought that their teaching is that any heterosexual activity not for the production of children is JUST AS SINFUL AS HOMOSEXUALITY! (I think this probably includes most regular people!)... so BIGOT does seem to be the correct terminology here.

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To Janus
You may disagree but people had different experiences in diferent places, what I wrote is the truth as I experienced it.

No one was argueiing with you about how you interpreted your subjective experience. You are welcome to interpret your reality in whicheverway you choose but do not expect to make assertions about ISKCON without having your claims of objectivity challenged.

I neither see anything ioin your recent explanation to support your posturing of yourself as an objective observer of ISKCON (30 year study) or of being informed from a position from which you can ascertain that ISKCON is is not still a dangerous cult. In fact. one only need to follow the inferences that your latest posts introduces to find evidence disputing your own claim.
For instance this:

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Also my sources are numerous ex leaders of iskcon whom I know and are always eager to dish on the past. Also you can go to various hare krishna forums and most of them are all to glad to dish the dirt to anyone who asks. Other then that I keep myself educated on what's going down in da hood.

Had all of your sources of negativity concerning ISKCON fried up before the time of your presentation of ISKCON as an almost democratic monastic order then one could not conjecture that such negativity as is still being commented about is still going onbut your sources are continuous and as they consist of former leaders.... Connect the dots.

And this:

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He tried to get a girl killed

\

Your sources are somewhat inaccurate. He didn't just "try". He succeeded, and how recently was ISKCON still celebrating him as a pure devotee? Untril he died in 2004 if I recall orrectly. The other girl that your post alluded to, the one who survived told me about her experiences.

I know some people too, for instance just last yesterday I looked over some prints of the paintings ilustraing Gita-Govinda with Jadurani dd.

And I knew Jayatirtha too. I still remember him leaning against the limo as Hansaduta offered me power and position in the movement equal to their own.

I do not recomend ISKCON to anyone, nor do I recomend any of the other camps. If you want to practice Krsna consciousness do it at home or in small groups but for God's sake don't join any of these groups, they are all Cults as far as I am concerned. It is to bad, but it is as it is.

It may change in the future and with that in mind I helped ISKCON to resist a hostile takeover just a few years back, not to preserve it for any of those who had fallen back into hedonism and the worship of the golden calf, but for those that Prabhupada prediced, his cgildren's childrens, children, for those who would be pure devotees in fact.

This doesn't mean I support ISKCON, just that I am keeping it alive on life support until the time is opportune for the transplant of a normal brain and human heart into it.

I got Nori's book from one of my students who was Nori's roomate in L.A. and she got it from Bhramananda who said that it was an accurate assesment. Los Angeles was meant by Srila Prabhupada to be the training center of Anerican Vaisnava's, it isn't exactly a back woods place and its later reputation as Loose Angeles not withstanding devotees came here and shared their understandings, new, what have you from every corner of the globe.
Your trying to depict Nori as a country bumpkin of limited perspective and yourself as an authoritive aducator of the health of ISKCOn does not recomend your intellectual integrity. I suggest that you involve yourself in personal dialog with yourself.

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I do not recomend ISKCON to anyone, nor do I recomend any of the other camps. If you want to practice Krsna consciousness do it at home or in small groups but for God's sake don't join any of these groups, they are all Cults as far as I am concerned. It is to bad, but it is as it is.

It may change in the future and with that in mind I helped ISKCON to resist a hostile takeover just a few years back, not to preserve it for any of those who had fallen back into hedonism and the worship of the golden calf, but for those that Prabhupada prediced, his cgildren's childrens, children, for those who would be pure devotees in fact.

I remember you from some hare krishna forums. You have some fantasy life man. For other people's edification on "Janus": He is a mentally disturbed person who for years has claimed (using different names) on hare krishna forums that he was offered to be one of the leaders of iskcon and that he saved iskcon, that he has mystic powers to save us all, etc etc etc. No one knows who he is. The general consensus is that he is a deranged person.

From Janus at audarya forum

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Janus
Visitor

re: ISKCON - A Gurukuli's view
09/07/01 06:16 PM

Had Srila Prabhupada not trusted them then they never could have betrayed his trust. Had he not have taken their word then they could never have broken their word to him, and had not he have accepted their oaths then they would not now be forsworn; oathbreakers or "Warlocks" to use the most hated appelation of my tradition.
But no, I am not a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. A recipiant of his mercy yes, but I am not now, nor have I ever been a nominal member of your tradition.
"The fault Dear Brutus is not in our stars but in ourselves." Shakespeare, and while "yes", at times to my normal vision it might appear that Srila Prabhupada was unwise to trust some particular one or to take him or her at their word, that he should appear to act at times like a normal man does not at all mean that he was. What was his fault anyway, that he was to good for us? Let it stand at that then if fault must be named, that he was to good.
It has been a long, long very long time since he who was closer to me, closer to my sentiments, closer to my heart, went into the ground. No, I was not his disciple, and yet he was the only one I ever felt who truely understood me, the only person who I could trust completely, who I could depend upon entirely, who I could count on completely. No, whatever for would I curse such a great soul with myself, to be his disciple, a stone in his shoe, a milstone round his neck. I escaped becoming his disciple, but his mercy was to quick for me, I didn't escape that.
Srila Prabhupada was Mahajana, according to time and to place and capacity, this is not something that is a conscious choice "Oh, I am Mahajana, let me think how to present it." Tumi Hrisikesa, Hrisika damiya "Make me dance, O Lord make me dance."
So.

Another name of Janus on hare krishna forums in the past was Wyspery

From istagosthi forum

Here a person is mocking him by calling himself "the 12th guru"

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<the 12th guru>
unregistered

posted July 10, 2002 02:37 PM

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Originally posted by <Wyspery>:

That's what I was looking for, but he wasn't protected and shielded from my challenge, which is the only thing that counts to me. This may sound crazy to you but my relationship is with the uttama-adhikari, not with asslike madhyama adhukari that you encountered and whose B.S. I didn't accept for a moment. If that S.O.B had ever given me any **** at the least I probably would have tied him up in a knot, stuffed him into a box and shipped him back to India and so he didn't.
C'mon, did you really think that someone who made such assanine comments as "Hitler wasn't so bad" stood a chance of being ever accepted by the general populace as a spiritual leader?
My relationship was and is with the real Srila Prabhupada someone who I have encountered through direct spiritual experience, not with that smelly old goat that you used to worship. I never liked him and I never liked you guys either, bunch of frigging religious fanatics.
As to my spending the rainy season under a few boards listening to an old man talk through a translator..., that and to the times I spent on the banks of some holy sistern, sleeping at night in a hole dug into the sand...well, another time perhaps. I don't in general do requests unless I like the one making them.

Is this why Hamsadutta asked you to be the 12th guru? Would this have been one of your classes after you took over the Hare Krishna movement?

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<12th guru>
unregistered

posted July 10, 2002 03:21 PM

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Originally posted by <Wyspery>:

wyspery>"I made certain that no one ever related to be was exposed to Srila Prabhupada’s ****** preaching, nor to that of Bhaktisedanta. Instead I search all over India for someone of the system that schooled Bhisekesena whom the Gaudiya Vaisnava Bhaktivinode Thakur was unable to break the power of. "

12th guru> if you were involved with the Hare Krishna movement long enough for Hamsadutta to ask you to be the 12th guru how come you never learned how to spell Bhaktisiddhanta's name right?

wyspery>"The Krsna Consciousness movement gave me a temple, met all of my other conditions, provided me with as many beautiful young women as I liked and with sumptuous feasts. I was also invited to be one of the 11 by one of the 11. "

12th guru>wow,Wyspery. You must be the only brahmacari in history to be provided with as many beautiful young women as you liked. Strange that all that time that all that time you spent as a brahmacari you not only never received initiation but Hamsadutta THOUGHT you were initiated. Bull****!

He had been a source of amusement for years, but it's been awhile since I see em, so I guess he's trying to do his thing here (convince people he is some type of omniscient person/guru/savior.

Janus said

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I know some people too, for instance just last yesterday I looked over some prints of the paintings ilustraing Gita-Govinda with Jadurani dd.

Riiiiiiigggghhhhtttt.

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Your sources are somewhat inaccurate. He didn't just "try". He succeeded, and how recently was ISKCON still celebrating him as a pure devotee? Untril he died in 2004 if I recall orrectly. The other girl that your post alluded to, the one who survived told me about her experiences.

I was talking about still another girl as well, a black lady. The one who was supposedly murdered on the plan of the iskcon guru is a theory without any proof. The girl you refer to and who I also refered to claims her friend was sent to Liberia to be killed. This is what actually happened.

[www.vnn.org]

The girl we refer to claims that the guru sent that girl to Liberia to be killed. While it may be true, she has not provided any proof that the story on that link is wrong. Murder is a serious charge. He may actually have been responsible, I would not be surprised, but until furthur evidence comes out I can't claim that he did send her to her death.

And she didn't "tell you". You read about it when it was hot news a few years ago.

“As to how I know about "insider" stuff. I was close friends with Jayatirtha for a couple years after he left iskcon. He was the most popular and successful of the iskcon gurus post Bhaktivedanta. He ruled over the U.K, large parts of Europe, parts of the U.S, Africa and India. Then he was forced out in 1981 because he had girlfriends, he was getting high, and he was friends with an old indian guru who was banned in iskcon. Those were the official reasons. The unofficial reasons were because he had the most profitable "zone". He was raking in more cash then anybody else. So he left and took a handful of followers with him. I had already left by then. He and his crew of new agey hippie stoned out Krishna crew descended into marin county after that. I was visiting from maui some friends in california and we decided to go up and visit them. We had heard rumors of acid fueled parties and whatnot and we wanted to see what was going on. So we called them up and got invited to stay with them. They had a gorgeous villa in the mountains that used to be the italian consulate and was once owned by Al Capone. I made close friends with Jayatirtha and his crew and I learned a lot of stuff from them about the inner workings of iskcon leadership. They were into getting high smoking good quality ganja, they were cultivating their own magic mushrooms as well. Jayatirtha was quite popular with the whole crowd of famous hallucinogenic authors and that whole scene. He was good friends with 1. Terence McKenna and Timothy Leary. Before he joined iskcon he had lived on Leary's commune at Millbrook N.Y.

He was a cool hippie new agey kinda guy at the time I knew him, I visited him and stayed a while a few more times. Later I heard he got weird in the head and started to think he was a reincarnation of jesus or krishna or something. “

It was a shame about Jayatirtha, but he did not listen to Prabhupada or Leary either, both of whom followed models with strict rules. Prabhupada and Leary weren’t just marketing their favorate recepies for getting high, both were in complete agreement in regards to some important things. Leary was at one time at least a serious researcher whose researches are now forbidden by law all over the world. He had “tuned in” to the same thing that Aldous Huxley and Allan Watts had and had likewise discovered that LSD produced “religious” experiences.
Meditation unlike the use of hallucinogens is still legal even though the fundamentalists will still riducule you for trying it. In intense meditation, under strict yogic rules; “religious” experiences are likewise produced, liberation is attained to, or in more scientific terms; imprints are broken.
Jayatirtha however chose not to follow the rules of either model. Either that of Prabhupada or of Leary, he was just “to cool” to be constrained by any rules. So instead of following either one model or the other he attempted to combine them.
I never questioned him about why he chose to do this, you didn’t have to, Jayatirtha. Just like the rest of them were pretty transparent. He probably tuned in to the same thing that Nori had tuned in to. If you re-read her book Betrayal of Spirit the only time, the single only time that she mentions having any religious experience during her whole time in the movement was when she was stoned. A lot of people, I mean a lot came to Krsna consciousness stoned. Sometimes I think it was the only thing that allowed them to suspend their disbelief and accept such things as swan airplanes, four headed deities, etc., etc. It was like watching that old Ray Harryhausen Sinbad movie with dancing statue of Kali, only this was to be more fun, this time instead of just watching the fantasy they could be in. To drugged out hippies eating garbage out of trash dumps a plate of prasadam, a flower and a picture of the divine couple Sri-Sri Radha-Krsna are most convincing, they joined the movement in droves, expecting, expecting to get high, and they did, but there was a limit.
Unlike Nori who decided that she would follow the rules of one system Jayatirtha determined that if a little ganga was good for obtaining a better perception of Krsna that a lot of dugs would be better.
It isn’t that you cannot relieve yourself of an imprint, it’s just that you cannot imprint your siddha deha artificially, nor can you imprint someone elses siddha-deha, Sri Krsna’s or Jesus Christs, and you’d better not try because if you do you are likely to get real weird in the head, to go mad.
It is my opinion that Krsna awards what mystic yogis and LSD users aspire to as if it were the least valuable door prize at a party. Prema-Bhakti is another thing and that is something that neither Leary, Watts, or Huxley claimed that their various models could attain one to.
Anyway I am sorry about your friend and I wish that someone would write a book about Jayatirtha and all thus. I, along with others have suggested to his widow that she write a book but she is to emotionally involved with the irrelevant to see how such an examination might benifit the assembled devotees. Anyway, I am sorry about your friend.

What is wrong with a little weed?
everything in moderation!
the problem with the haris is that they do not allow anything but chanting and brainwashing activities.
they do not have sex and sex is ok
they do not even eat normal food
i liked their food a lot but i can't live without something besides rice and greens. there is nothing wrong about eatting meat
but as with ALL cults they warp peoples minds
you may have studied them for 30 years but it is pretty clear that you got your mind lost a long time ago.
that big guru on hawaii is just another cult leader who rips off his followers they are all the same and the motive is power and money

Hi supermonkey!

Regarding eating meat: The Haris believe that every living being is an "atma" (rough translation is "spirit soul") and there are different degrees of consciousness for every species. For example humans, apes, cats, dogs, dolphins, whales, etc, have quite advanced consciousness and hence many people in North America and Europe will consider it immoral or even a crime to kill these animals, whereas people from other cultures will kill these same animals for food, fur, etc...

The so-called "Hindu" theology takes this concept one step further and includes ALL mammals especially as being immoral to kill. The plant kingdom is considered to be food for the human beings as the consciousness of plants is very minimal.

Hence, the religion was attractive to the "hippie" types or some of the "New Age" types of people, and definitely not very attractive to the "redneck" types!

Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa
Chaitanya Mission Manila
Philippines.

Dear Swami,

Regarding: Your booklet titled : ' Understanding Karma ', Published by Science of Identity Foundation, Sine loco, 1995 .

I am writing to you in response to some comments you made in the above booklet. These comments include:

1. Your excessive critical stance towards Christians.

2. Imposing upon Christians generic philosophical questions, and assuming simplistic, unauthenticated replies.

3. Your misuse of Christian Scripture as a springboard to project your version of 'Orientalism'.

4. Your wildly extravagant claim to be " teacher of the entire world...distinct from the (a) teacher of a particular sect, (or) religion ".


5. Your misquoting Jesus to support the Hindu doctrine of 'karma' , and 'metempsychosis.'


I am curious to learn why you take such hypercritical, and judgemental stance towards Christians, whom you repeatedly refer to as: "so-called Christians" ( op. cit . 4, 9). This has the effect of discrediting their moral integrity in the minds of non-discerning readers. Your assumption suggests an incorrect designation of the word ' Christian '. Are you suggesting followers of Christ have, since circa 45 AD ( Acts 11. 26 ), been mistakenly calling themselves Christians , id est. for the past 1,955 years? Or is the term: "so-called Christians" a generic label you employ to describe those who disagree with your teachings? I would be interested to know the basis, of your assumed moral 'authority' in making such judgemental pronouncements. Also the criterion you employed, exempli gratia , the ethical legal codes of Hinduism or Christianity. Furthermore, your definitive description of what, you consider, constitutes a 'Christian'.

I have written to you several time for which you have not replied. Would you please consider replying to this message.

Rev. Fr. Maximiadis.

I didn't understand at first why followers of cults choose to remain in the fold despite obvious faults of their leaders and the cracks on the creeds they follow. But now I do.

I was involved in Chris Butler's movement in the midst 70s but had to let go in the early 80s despite my almost stubborn insistence of his divinity due to an overwhelming inconsistencies in his examples, in the lifestyles of the group and the direction of the whole organization itself was going. Chris is far from being a despot like other cult gurus. He's got a thug-like side and a Jesus charm divinity, but both are not him, I believe, These contradictions are present in all aspects of the movement - from their caste-like society, their business conduct, their social and personal lives and their very own spirituality. It's a harmonized contradictions that Chris Butler or the doctrine itself presents as sort of a new form of psychological hold wherein a member need not be told what is the answer, or what to do but will volunteer almost automatically in pleasing the master and justify anything questionable as beyond human understanding. So, coercion is at the minimum, and the familiar brainwashing techniques we know from other cults is almost non-existent here. People stay willfully and are cognizant of the problems, but instead of choosing to question they would choose to justify the wrongs with a new set of morality that they believe is far better, far superior than our human sensibilty.

This maybe is the genius of Chris Butler which puts him above other gurus. He can be himself, warts and all and not worry about his followers a bit questioning him. In their doctrine, the guru and the Supreme Being are inseparable and loved as one. So forget about the details and the simplicity of his teachings, like loving God with all their hearts, minds and beings; to be humble as a straw on the street; and to follow a strict and austere lifestyle to remain pleasing to God. Well, just like in all religions, what is so wrong about that? But what separates him from the catholic pope is that his presentation of God as Krishna is more vibrant, lovable and even mischievous compare to the almost impersonal catholic God. The key I think is to fall in love in Krishna is fall in love with the person Krishna loves most. Got the logic? We all know what it is to fall in love, right? Just like with our first love, we know that the heart will always follow what it wants, no matter what the mind says. Chris Butler appeals to the heart not to the mind. With the heart, reason hardly applies. It just feels great and right. Our mothers and friends could say anything otherwise about or first love, they don't matter at all, thus, this wide-eyed devotion and the tireless exhilaration we see from a follower.

The doctrine centers on the lovable Krishna, which love is both the salvation and pleasure of life. And it's addictive, almost instantaneous, and even crazy; they call transcendental, meaning beyond the pleasure of what we get from the mundane world. The key is: to obtain this love, the supreme God out of his mercy and love provided us a living, SOLE representative on earth with whom we could experience this pure bliss from - SERVING HIM. My question is how come every time God relates to humankind it's always through one chosen person, and the funny thing is this has been claimed by many and countless number of times and they did not agree with one another.

In my years of service to the group, I had to keep all my doubts to myself. I had seen people who voiced out differing views, ended up on trial. The group call these people "offensive" to the guru, a state similar to hell bound in Catholics and worse they are disdained and are not allowed to the congregation or near the guru, or associate with in fear of contamination. Sometimes like in what I mentioned above, members will bring it steps further, like on their own volition would cause the "offensive" harm and other undue treatment in show of their undying love for their guru they believe was hurt by the offence, without instruction or knowledge from the guru itself. I heard of incidences where followers of the Iskcon were kidnapped and beaten up black and blue, and that even became a trend until Chris himself gave an instruction for this practice to stop.

These are just key examples of the psychology that goes on in the group. Forget about the conventional method among cults, nobody gets hypnotized here and held against his or her will. You're dealing with entirely new set of values and rationale that through time obliterates the human reasoning, not by the guru but by the members on themselves. These are people who are insanely in love and do things out of pleasure more than anything else.

Thank God for the internet, three years ago I was desperate to find info about this secretive group I got into deep trouble with, and now almost by accident I get this forum with invaluable insights, especially from the brave souls of former members. So I'm not alone after all. You're doing great service to the innocents, especially children who did not choose to be among these manipulative groups, but instead of being protected from get dragged to by their irresponsible parents.

Adults, do what you want with your lives, but please don't involve the children. Thank you all!


Sunglider

sunglider

Quote

This maybe is the genius of Chris Butler which puts him above other gurus. He can be himself, warts and all and not worry about his followers a bit questioning him. In their doctrine, the guru and the Supreme Being are inseparable and loved as one.

I fail to see any difference in this sense between Butler and other gurus.
To name a few, how about Bagwan Sri Rasneesh, Sai Baba, Gourasana, or Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche?
All of these people were able to be themselves, "warts and all", as you so colorfully state, and get away with it. It's an intrinsic part of the guru game.
Butler seems very commonplace to me.