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rrmoderator
No one joins a cult intentionally to be hurt.

I'm not gonna get into this meaningless debate. One thing I don't like in any groups is this linear way of thinking. You don't fight fundamentalism with another form of fundamentalism. Things we express here are mere opinions. Watch out, you may end as what you criticize in the first place.

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whitemoon
A real representative of God, would never have chosen 5 kid molestors as his chief captains to carry on after he died, the old bugger was deluded ...

OUCH! This is a good point, though, raising questions such as:

1. Were these so-called big swamis just power seekers from the moment they joined the movement, and just pulling the wool over A.C. Bhaktivedanta's eyes for so long? OR

2. Were these "swamis" seriously following the religious process, which failed to satisfy them spiritually or otherwise, and eventually their falsely imposed celibacy drove them to becoming child molesters?

3. Surely, the "old bugger's" idea of sending 5 year old children to these terrible schools BACKFIRED big-time, as instead of becoming "pure devotees" the effect seems to have been just the opposite?

:?:


"BLESSED ARE THE DUMPSTER DIVERS, but they shall NOT inherit the earth" - the Bible according to Siddha?


:D

Well, maybe not complete and total victims, such as "forced at gunpoint", but victims none-the-less.

Aren't most "Gurus" the primary, sometimes sole, beneficiary of monies collected, adulation of followers, palatial residences, no accountability, etc., etc.?

Doesn't this "guru" accept all of the above?

I haven't heard anyone say, "No, he won't tell us what to do...he won't take our money...he built a big mansion for ME, his humble follower"!

He started it by calling himself a "teacher", "guru", "enlightened". He put on the robe.

He accepted the rewards, indeed, from what people have written, demanded them.

Why did he disappear from the public arena?
Was it because he did not want the troubles that go along with the rewards?
I haven't heard anyone say he has quit the business.

whitemoon wrote:
A real representative of God, would never have chosen 5 kid molestors as his chief captains to carry on after he died, the old bugger was deluded ...


Who believes in representative of God anyway, these are just claims. You and I can claim that too, and if there are people around willing to be blind followers, we're all made like Chris. If you take it in Hindu context, anybody, or anything can represent God, and it's always been like that in India all the time, it only becomes big deal when it is heard in the West - Representative of God, which sounds much like the catholic Pope. These penniless saddhus begging in the streets of Bombay are their representatives of God, they live and are honoured with alms by the locals as holy saints. Some of them are total psyched out but again their concept of a saint is far from our saint peter, paul and mary.

Anyway, I notice most of the arguments in this thread seem to deviate from the real issue with this Krishna group or any other cult groups. Whether their followers are victims or not will remain debatable. I came from this group and I know well that nobody is coerced to stay. It's an open door policy or even wall-less organization, but most stay willingly. I'm sure majority knows how phony their guru is and their dogma does not stand on solid ground. Maybe because of self-interests, or pride or just plain cliquish mentality that most are willing to turn a blind eye to these cracks on their belief system. I won't be surprised that even if Chris is removed or let's say disgraced, the group will still move on. The real issue I see here are the families that are displaced. Parents become separated by two opposing values. Families that were deserted by their converted loved ones. Children born into the group are already disadvantaged by their parents' choices, the worse I believe is being pulled out from their schools and social surrounding and sent to Philippines where they are systematically brainwashed which their parents were never subjected to.

Let's pretend Chris is gone. Will the argument of who to blame still stand? I must admit that there maybe a varying degree of guilt for these willing, participating and active disciples. From 1% to 99% victim. I won't accept 100% because the fact that you joined means you’re accountable. THE CHILDREN DID NOT JOIN. Most of them came out of this earth to irresponsible, brain-dead parents and nobody would speak for them. Even the government wouldn't dare lift a finger to interfere because of this complicated, built in rights of their parents to a belief of their CHOICE. In our democracy, the children will be able to express their choice upon reaching the age of 18. By that time, they are as brain-dead as their irresponsible parents. Who's gonna bear the guilt for what is taken away from these children. If anybody still insists on the innocence of these parent-disciples, I rest my case.

Let me put this into perspective. Chris Butler and his group is kindergarten compared to other cults - Sai Baba, Maharishi, Bhagwan, etc. Even with western gurus like Moon, Hubbard, etc. These gurus are multi-millionaires. Chris' excesses is nothing compared to them. But Chris is phony just the same, and his problem is he preaches austerity and he's supposedly Christ-like, that's what he made his followers to believe. He's a lesser despot, and systematic brainwashing and coercion is not his style. He's a lovable character than these other gurus who look more like WWF icons than spiritual leaders.

But the fact that they subject the children to stringent disciplines and I believe systematic brainwashing in the school in the Philippines made his group as guilty as the rest. I don't think there are any sexual issues unlike in the monstrous Iskcon, but sexual abuse is nothing compared to the psychological damage done to the children undergoing the program designed to ensure the group's longevity in the next generation. Physical and sexual abuses bear bruises; psychological damage has none and is hard to prove in any courts. And unlike in established religions, programming is done behind closed doors.

The adults willingly REJECT the mainstream society as evil, but the children are THOUGHT these lies; they are programmed to observed antiquated traditions even orthodox Hindus no longer practise. The children I observed grew up uncomfy with their surroundings and suspicious of the people outside their community; They see the world as black and white - us against them, even with non-practicing family members and relatives; They parrot their parents' hollow dogmas and terminologies; and most end up confused, depressed, lacking proper education, even trouble-proned and could not relate well with the society, let alone compete. Even those who left the group hardly find comfort in a world that was made strange to them, eventually come back to the only community that they understand. It's cruel and sad. So if this forum's organization could do anything about this group, please make the children your rallying cry. They are 100% innocent. I don't think this is at all debatable.

Sunglider:

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I'm not gonna get into this meaningless debate.

Seems like you are dismissing quite a bit here. Cult control through coercive persuasion ("brainwashing") is a major focus of dialog here directly related to the discussion of destructive groups.

This is a pivotal issue when discussing cults.

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Chris Butler and his group is kindergarten compared to other cults

Frankly, Butler doesn't seem that different from other assorted harmful gurus, swamis and cult leaders, though each leader may exploit his or her followers differently, through varying degrees of destructive behavior and/or demands.

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The adults willingly REJECT the mainstream society as evil

"Willingly"?

Cult members are frequently deceived, misled and often just plain lied to.

This is how many cult leaders recruit their followers and then get them to do whatever they want. And the process of cult "brainwashing" largely shuts down a cult member's critical thinking.

There may be no physical walls holding devotees in, but unreasonable fears encouraged through the group's brainwashing, may make it very hard to leave.

I appreciate your concerns about the treatment of the children, but please try to understand these other important issues when discussing this subject.

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sunglider
... But Chris is phony just the same, and his problem is he preaches austerity and he's supposedly Christ-like, that's what he made his followers to believe.

REGARDING SIDDHA AND CHRISTIANITY:

It is true that Siddha teaches some of the same things that Jesus taught in the Bible - i.e. the first and foremost commandment is to LOVE GOD, and also things like THOU SHALT NOT KILL etc. etc....

However whereas Jesus fed the 5000 people with a couple of loaves and fishes, it seems that it takes 5000 people to cook to feed Siddha.

And also it should be noted that the 5000 people all felt happy and satisfied after eating the loaves and fishes, WHEREAS Siddha was not happy or satisfied with the food preparations cooked by the 5000 ... PLUS the people who cooked for Siddha were condemned by Siddha and neither were they happy or satisfied also.


:?

I also remember the warehouse all too well!
And yes, those nights of chanting on Kauai in the jungle were somehow magical. The week-end "feast", remember those? with devotees coming down to Taylor Camp to pick everyone up in a van...of course, none of us had cars! I helped install the deities in the warehouse...and we even got yelled at for "how" we did it. That poor woman, she had been living in the jungle on Kauai quite alone for a long time, guarding the "sleeping deities", finally brought them to the warehouse at HIS request, we bathed & dressed them...and awaited for HIM to "awaken then". Since we had stood them upright...w/o his permission, we were hammered on big time!
HE was good at that, bringing you quite literally to your knees begging for forgiveness. Whew! I was initiated by HIM & a devotte for several years...
initiated in that "luxury condo over looking the beach". When I finally left, running for my sanity, I became barred...no one was to associate with me any more. All I could think was...thank you universe for that one! The man I was married to then is still HIS devotte, and has an ashram in So. CA. Yes, they guard HIM quite seriously. I know for a fact, his body guards carry guns. No rumor, fact...I know these people. They have put around the rumor they HE may be dead...I seriously doubt that with all my heart! You've never seen a human being so pampered & well cared for in your life. Why he chooses to hide from the public at large, don't know. HE used to be pretty damn flambouant in the 70's. I have seen HIM do some outrageous things, at least outrageous to my mind anyway. (BTW...using caps for "him" so it'll be clear whom I'm speaking of) There were always several sets of "rules". One set if you were in the "inner circle", and what you could get away with, what was acceptable behavior or not. If you were part of the old gang, around when he was still with ISKON, & adored HIM then, thought of HIM as enlightened then, you were IN solid. A slap on the hand for "offenses" that other devottes were dragged over the coals of hell for. I think most of us really were trying to become humble himan beings, and learn what god wanted for our lives, what path we should be on. To learn to truly love and obey. HE used this great desire in us all to belittle and mentally shame us into HIS submission. None of us are without faults, without regrets, and HE saw our insecurities clearly & used them. I do believe HE has some talent as a Yogi. Does that make HIM a guru of souls? Not in my book baby. Simply because you learn to manipulate some physical energy doesn't mean you've got the Creators ear! This is MY memory of these years any way...
Those few I have just related, and many many more. A wild & amazing time of my life that ended in 1984. I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone has that I am able to. However, I will NOT mention devotees names...for some people this is a very hard memory, and privacy is to be respected.

Sincerely,
Shanti


This is so true... gone were the carefree days of playing drums in the jungles of Kauai and Maui with a chorus of rare bird-song and surrounded by beautiful trees! THE WAREHOUSE[/color:0d93e60547] was now our reality! The "warehouse" was a large concrete building with no daylight and very high ceilings that was somehow cold and had a somewhat spooky feeling... I remember the time when the devotees did not install a deity room in the warehouse and Siddha went ballistic... He banished everyone from the building for several weeks... There were quite a few people from other countries (New Zealand, etc), who had no money, and now all of a sudden they found themselves with no place to stay and scrambling to get a bite to eat!... Meanwhile Siddha was living in a luxury condo overlooking the ocean at Waikiki, and didn't seem to care about our predicament... Finally when the deity room was installed, people were allowed back to the warehouse, but oddly enough that deity room remained empty most of the time, (as far as I can remember), as probably people were too busy with the "Quatermass" project - we thought we were saving the world from birth and death by getting Siddha on television so people could hear the name of god from a pure soul...

I also remember the time when a poor mother told Siddha she could not come up with the 25% donation as she was barely able to feed her children - he came down on her like a TON OF BRICKS[/size:0d93e60547], yes, I remember that...

I also remember the people living in the dark attic, so dark that they became like mole people, "hiding from the man" as they were now in Honolulu illegally and had overstayed their visa... Yes, I remember these things![/color:0d93e60547][/quote]

Cult members are frequently deceived, misled and often just plain lied to.

This is how many cult leaders recruit their followers and then get them to do whatever they want. And the process of cult "brainwashing" largely shuts down a cult member's critical thinking.

There may be no physical walls holding devotees in, but unreasonable fears encouraged through the group's brainwashing, may make it very hard to leave.

[/quote]

Yes, as a female ex-member of that group, I can absolutley say that fears of the outside world, and people in general who were not devotees, (called "karmi's") was hammered into you daily. Don't associate, don't associate, don't associate! Women are told they NEED husbands because the world is dangerous & you're at high risk of only god knows what happening to you w/o their protection. You are told that THE only path to god is through your spiritual master. Total submission, unquestioning obedience is the fine line you must learn to walk with all your heart to achieve ANY knowledge of god. For lots of us, a huge range of old hippies, who had gone the gament of drug years, meditation techniques, living in nature in jungles, Christian backgrounds on & on... we'd about run out of options (we thought) for spirtiual enlightenment. Here was a new one...with a live-in-your-face-guy telling you what to do. HE could be kind & melt your heart one minute, and hold you in despair the next. If you got punished for some offense, and were not allowed to go to kirtan, your whole world feel apart! Those people, that life, THAT was your world...it did not extend past this select group of humans & activities. We did not own any books or music that wasn't associated with this. No TV watching, no outside friends (unless you were trying to recruit them) etc. And, devotees spied one one another! It's true. If you saw a devottee doing something they "shouldn't", even drink a damn coke, rumors flew at the speed of light! All this was most especially true if you were in Honolulu, as that was a big clan gathering spot. HE was there a lot of the time, Down To Earth was there, the warehouse etc...lots was centered in Hawaii then. But if you could manage to live away from the hub, which I did most of the time, it was a lot mellower. However, the phone rings, you pick it up, bingo! it's HIM. No matter where you were physically on the planet, HE seemed to always be watching. That's how I felt anyway. When I was initiated by HIM, I was told that the beads he just placed around my neck were like a dog collar, for the spiritual master to yank on at anytime he pleased. That's a quote. Total total submission was what it was all about.

And at the same time, somehow you felt protected within the group...the rest of the world could be as crazy as it pleased, but you were okay. You had your spiritual master, fellow devotees, you did your rounds every day on your beads, offered your food, kept your deities, listened to chanting all day in the back ground, and did your "service" (whatever that was). In essense: you were on the path to god, and all was well. Even if you lived in another state or country, you were still within the giant bubble. Leave that, and surely chaos would decend. We were TOLD, leave this and you will wallow in the mire of gaining yet more karma, be lost again in the insanity that was out there. It was no easy thing to walk away I assure you. This comparison is [u:0b0c176830]simply[/u:0b0c176830] to stress a point...no jumping up & down arguements please...Think of being in jail for a period of years, & your fellow cell-mates are your only association, with whom you share a special lingo / language known only to yourselves, the boundaries of the prison your only view of the world. Then one day you are let out. Hello! You've forgotten how to speak the language of the outside world, don't have a clue what movies are playing, what's on TV, what the music of the times are, how to interact with everyday humans, hold down a regular job, & perhaps, in my case, how to even pay bills! You've cocoon-ed for so long...the rest of the world can be pretty damn scary at first. The hardest part was getting up the nerve to wander blindly back into a society that you'd been trying to dislodge yourself from for years. Stranger in a strange land. Back to being a karmi !

shanti wrote:

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Here was a new one...with a live-in-your-face-guy telling you what to do. HE could be kind & melt your heart one minute, and hold you in despair the next.

I have read a little about love addiction, and one thing I read seems to fit.

In a relationship, if there is a 50/50 chance of being rejected or accepted by the love object, the addiction is strongest and most difficult to break away from.
(from "Women who love too much", author unknown).

The relationship of devotee to guru seems to me to be very similar to any other addictive love relationship.

This trick of accepting and rejecting at random probably plays a big part in the retention of followers. It would be useful for any manipulator to know this, and Butler probably does.
Being aware of this can also help to free you from an addiction to a love object. I know this from personal experience.