I don't really care what you people say about Siddha, but I'm a big fan of his music. Does anybody remember his debut album, This World/Another World? My favourite was Water. Does anybody know what happened to his music career? His singing maybe average but his composition and melodies I believe had got commercial potential. Even his album was quite mysterious. I was one of the lucky guys who got hold of one of the few released, but just out of a sudden the disciples started confiscating copies and never heard of the album since. I lost my copy eventually to many hands that pass it on to how many, I'll never know.

Another topic. Katyayani had a son, Chibiyabos whom she entrusted to the care of Sudama in the Philippines. Sudama and his fanatical followers were quite rough on him, became like a punching bag of sort to male followers who believe they to be ksatriyas, or warrior class during the Bruce Lee time of the mid 70s, and Chibiyabos was not spared of his every natural boyhood mischief. I think the narrow-minded warriors mistook Sudama's strict, sometimes sadistic discipline of the boy as a go signal for them to discipline him among themselves as well. The last time I saw the boy was just before he left back for Hawaii. He must be around 13 that time.

Hi Sunglider,

There was another album by Siddha called "Mantra Electric" and this was pretty good also with some great guitar licks. I also remember that we were not allowed to listen to "This World/Another World" even though it was then available for sale in the stores... we were told that this was "sense gratification"!!!!

Siddha's music career has continued to the present day, but the main lead singer on the albums is now Wai Lana (Vaisnava Dasi) - his wife. They have brought out a few albums (3 or 4 I think) with mostly new compositions and a few old rehashed mantras... but not as good as This World/Another World[/color:cd16334ccc] or Mantra Electric [/color:cd16334ccc]in my opinion. I have one CD called "Yoga Sound" by Wai Lana and Siddha, and there is even one long song called Sunflower that is in Chinese!

As for Katyayani's son, Chibiyabos, I also remember him getting into trouble and I also have some vague memories of him being a punching bag of sorts. Before the Philippines school was started, there was some sort of school starting on Kauai with John Harvey in charge of a dozen kids or so, if I remember correctly. I remember he was a bit heavy handed with the discipline also, and at one time some of the locals criticized him for tying one of the children to a tree! I remember he was looking after Bhiharilal's child at one time and Bhiharalal got angry with John for being too heavy handed with the child - then Bhilaril attacked John Harvey in the temple room during a chanting session and had him by the throat!

I see from your first post that you were involved with the movement in the 1970s and dropped out in the 1980s. Certainly most of us on this forum considered the 1970s to be a great time (either on the outer islands of Hawaii or New Zealand, etc)... and then things starting getting a little weird in the 1980s, and even worse in the 1990s when Siddha started spouting his crazy "conspiracy theories" etc. and this is when we stopped communicating with the group altogether. After this came the toenail eating craziness and who knows what else kind of craziness???



:?

I fail to see any difference in this sense between Butler and other gurus.
To name a few, how about Bagwan Sri Rasneesh, Sai Baba, Gourasana, or Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche?
All of these people were able to be themselves, "warts and all", as you so colorfully state, and get away with it. It's an intrinsic part of the guru game.
Butler seems very commonplace to me.[/quote]


The gurus above and others brainwash their followers systematically that they are revered unquestioned. Yes warts and all. But Chris charmed his. He maybe so behaved in his TV programs but he never hid his misdemeanors among his disciples. Oftentimes they were even celebrated. I never saw any gurus foulmouth, throw sarcasms here and there and exhibit such grand lifestyle unapologetically as comfortably as Chris. He brings much roar to his audience when he does his wicked cartoony lashes, and even outbursts. He's the "cute" guru. He can be a good model candidate for a toothpaste commercial.

I have followed this thread with great interest. It opens up a Pandoras Box which has been suppressed for many people. It really saved my life. I have been a fringe follower for the last 20 years but never really gave in as my intuition did not let me, I always respected that little voice inside. But I was hoping for salvation and when I read this, the whole carpet was finally slipped from under my feet. I respect Siddha and give my obeiscances to such a great spirit, but he is only a man, not a God. What he has done through his great charm and sense of fun, has created a religion that is nice to be part of, but he is no God. He has created a cocoon for the lowest of society to nest in, all the hippies and the welfare dependents as most of his followers are, are cradled in this cocoon of lies. It is a dying religion. It has no attraction for society and those that join are dysfuntional. What a sense of security he has given them, and he is better than most. He does not pretend to be perfect, he is fun, he is charming, he is real, it is hard not to love him. But still he has created a net for misfits. I have no complaints against Siddha, except that he has set himself up as a God. Thank you Siddha for creating a net for the lowest of society, losers and welfare dependents. If they are not in prison for racketeering. I am not being sarcastic, this world is miserable as it is, and he has provided a net for these lost souls to shield themselves in. To get lost in the love of Krishna. The real problem lies with the father of all these lies, Srila Prabhupada, what I really want to know is how could a bona fide representative of God, have 5 of his first chosen prosecuted for child abuse, this child abuse started in the early 1970s, and he died I think in 1978. The old bugger must have known what was going on ??? If he didnt then he never was a bona fide representative of God, which undermines his whole mission?

What I want to know if the old bugger was truly a bona fide representative of God, why did his first chosen commit molestation of kids. I would have thought that God would have chosen better. The molestation started in the early 70s, he died in 1978, his first chosen were found guilty, he must have been a fraud ...

A real representative of God, would never have chosen 5 kid molestors as his chief captains to carry on after he died, the old bugger was deluded ...

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20bluemoons
I have no complaints against Siddha, except that he has set himself up as a God.

Siddha didn't set himself up as God, the doctrine did. The problem is when Bhaktivedanta brought the belief to the West, the West wasn't ready then for the Eastern concept of God. In Hindu tradition everybody is God, everybody is given the same respect as our gurus. The concept of God is beyond our understanding, beyond our description and way, way beyond our minds' capacity. That's exactly the meaning of transcendental. The concept just transcends everything that we are humanly capable of. And it branches into so many forms of practice like deity worship (where Bhakti Yoga is in) wherein the concept of God is reduced to anthropomorphic personalities like Krishna, Shiva, etc. so we humans can relate to and get to experience God (or Brahman). This is the only way humans can know God, through experience, everything else, including knowledge just falls short. Just like an ant to other ants describing what the ocean is like. The ant's brain just ceases to function in understanding what an ocean is like. Once you believe your doctrine it's like telling everybody that the water in the bottle that you're holding is the ocean. Get my point? There's nothing wrong with any form of worship as long as you are aware that that is just a method out of countless other methods to reach and experience the bigger realm that is God.

Siddha and the Iskcon didn't have this Eastern concept of God and adapted the belief from their Indian guru into Western Judeo-Christian mindset. So when Bhagavad-Gita says that the pure devotee is as good as God, it stops there. Siddha concluded the same, he had no choice but to believe that himself, the holy book said so. He was regarded as a pure devotee, he was therefore as good as God. But in Hindu tradition, even a guest in the house should be regarded as God, there's nothing so transcendentally big deal about that, you'll see cows around roaming free in the streets of Bombay and they are to the Hindus pure devotees too, and as good as God. But not the God that we westerners know of. But the God that is present in all living and even non-living matters. Hindus can declare a rock as an object of worship and people will have no qualms about it. God is spreadout to the whole population and nothing is blasphemous about that. Their concept of God is totally different from ours. You don't look at the finger when one is pointing you the moon. Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, they all tried to represent something beyond them but we instead got bogged down to who they were.

Perhaps it's time for Chris to wake up and free himself and his followers from this illusion. There's nothing wrong with trying to reach out and experience God (or Brahman) through a particular method, but this concept of me as good as God and I'm above everybody else should go. If people insist on their methods, they can do so and play this game but enough of preaching that theirs is the only true method. The reason cults are very prevalent among the western religions is because of our very feeble and constant attempt to enclose God into our human thinking. We know now how vast this physical universe is, and it would be so arrogant of us to believe that our species and way of thinking could really unravel the awesome mystery it holds. And if God is bigger than the universe, poor Chris, he's got way, way bigger shoes to fill in than he could ever imagined, that is if he insists on his Western concept of God.

Ant to an ocean is an overstatement, an atom to an ocean would be more representative of how puny we are to the power that we ignorantly claim. If only followers can appreciate this analogy, then gurus like Chris will start having second thoughts on things they say and claim. They need blind followers to exist, if light is spread out to many then there won't be any of them few enlightened ones anymore.

sunglider:

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Siddha didn't set himself up as God, the doctrine did.

If [b:59965a7d57]you[/b:59965a7d57] set [b:59965a7d57]yourself[/b:59965a7d57] up as a teacher ([b:59965a7d57]guru[/b:59965a7d57]) of a tradition that teaches [b:59965a7d57]"Guru is same as God"[/b:59965a7d57], you [b:59965a7d57]are[/b:59965a7d57] setting yourself up as God.

I know what you're trying to say, but Butler is nevertheless [b:59965a7d57]still the leader[/b:59965a7d57] of his flock. He has not to my knowledge stepped down from the position.

All the apologists keep trying to absolve Butler, but as long as he is still accepting the role of leader, he [b:59965a7d57]is responsible[/b:59965a7d57], as was Bhaktivedanta.

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All the apologists keep trying to absolve Butler, but as long as he is still accepting the role of leader, he [b:df8fedfe1b]is responsible[/b:df8fedfe1b], as was Bhaktivedanta.

I'm no apologist for any gurus. But I don't put the onus solely on the guru here. Like I said if there are no blind followers these charlatans won't thrive. Chris' followers are willing participants in this guru scheme and they are far from being victims. The victims are the children who mostly did not choose to be in this group but were dragged in by their irresponsible parents. Most are pulled out of their schools, are deprived of proper education and interactions with their fellow human beings, are therefore divested of their future and places in society. This I believe is the cruelest part and my sympathy is on these children, not the adults. If Chris could show such blatant and questionable conducts and is still accepted as a pure and godly person by his followers, no reasoning humanly possible could turn these groupies around. But who'll speak for the children, their psychological damage could be irreversible.

The guru, the elders and the avid fans are equally guilty of this heinous crime against the innocents.

Sunglider:

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followers are willing participants in this guru scheme and they are far from being victims.

Destructive cults and their leaders are to blame for the harm done to followers. No one joins a cult intentionally to be hurt.

It is more of a "bait and switch" con.

Destructive cults use coercive persuasion, isolation, fear and frequently trance induction techniques to convert and control people.

Blaming the victims of cults for their own injuries is not a meaningful response to the wrongful acts done by cults and thier leaders that exploit and do harm to people.

The children are not the only "innocents."