Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 19, 2021 05:15AM

We should NEVER fall for the mystical traps that sent us to this path and kept us there.
We all had many red flags in our hearts we did not listen to.
People do not fall for the simulated synchronicities and bliss.
It is all a golden prison.
A loving god would not want you to be treated like this in a spiritual community.
Wake up! Not all that glitters is gold.
To hell with the transcendental crack.
You all deserve better than this.

Toxic love often means oscillating between strong highs (excitement and passion) and intense lows (anxiety and depression). You revel in the highs but mostly experience the lows.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 19, 2021 05:19AM

Is this man truly worthy of these prayers?
How we have been fooled.
Belief is so powerful.


1) The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow
to your lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By your grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Krishna.

2) My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to your lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

3) You open my darkened eyes and fills my heart with transcendental knowledge. He is my Lord birth after birth. From him ecstatic prema emanates; by him ignorance is destroyed. The Vedic scriptures sing of
his character.

4) Our spiritual master is the ocean of mercy, the friend of the poor, and the lord and master of the devotees. O master! Be merciful unto me. Give me the shade of your lotus feet. Your fame is spread all over the three worlds

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 19, 2021 06:44AM

One thing people must know is that the boat accident must be very obviously a scam.
If that other disciple had truly caused the death and ruin their reputation, he would be banned and thrown into the eternal dog house.
When those money hungry monsters ask for donations all the time and make people work for free till 3 AM, would pay for a top lawyer?
Hello? Do you believe in Santa?
No need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out it must be a cover up.
The butler followers are half decent people but because of the rotten fear and abuse setting, they are not always the most compassionate.
Would they truly have so much mercy toward someone who accidently kills a swimmer.
They are expert at throwing people out. They mostly priviledge the useful and the obedient.
When life gets sour, they forget you ever existed and noone will call to see how you are.
You are semi disposable. If they ever get in touch it is because they want to save the fallen. Get you to go back to butler prison planet.
If that mental hospital ceases to exist all together, it will not be a great loss.
Most people only care about their own families, guru and krishna.
If you are single, you may as well organize your own funerals.
RIP SoI your glory days are over.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 19, 2021 09:55PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dawatcher just wanted to make it clear that I
> don’t want to trash Balakhilya’s family. They are
> decent people.

There are many nice people at SIF. Finally, they also sacrificed their lives in the name of love and transcendence, and oftentimes temporal forms of care and other beings.

> May they never find out how ugly and unfair it all
> is.


If one actually hears or preaches teachings about spiritual equality, gurus being marked, the dangerous and inconvenient "materially superior" position, and other related matters, then if he is sensitive he must realize that something is wrong.

> Who are those advanced devotees in our group that
> everybody worships?

This does not really interest me anymore. Evidence of lies, breaking the rules, breaking the law is what counts. Facts and Documents. Oh yes dear, there are already quite a lot of them.

> They have given their lives to krishna and butler.
> They are blissed out and showered by the love of
> their deities. Their lives are somcalled perfect.
> Yet they are fine living with so many lies, using
> their position to give protection to their
> families, to be treated like royalty, to cheat, to
> accept lying on the strength of the Gita,

You can be a surrogate or foster family of the greatest guru in the world and at the same time brag about your acquaintance or playing as an understudy for an obscene director. Something is inconsistent here ....

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the
> only way by which we can attain pure devotional
> service. I bow
> to your lotus feet with great awe and reverence.
> By your grace one can cross the ocean of material
> suffering and obtain the mercy of Krishna.

Excuse me, and not necessarily lotus feet sent by Guru Mr. Midgett too?

>
> 2) My only wish is to have my consciousness
> purified by the words emanating from his lotus
> mouth. Attachment to your lotus feet is the
> perfection that fulfills all desires.

Excuse me, but if my only wish is to have my consciousness
purified by the words emanating from his lotus
mouth and attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires, to cramps ooh what in this arrangement does Mr. Midgett?


> 3) You open my darkened eyes and fills my heart
> with transcendental knowledge. He is my Lord birth
> after birth. From him ecstatic prema emanates; by
> him ignorance is destroyed. The Vedic scriptures
> sing of
> his character.

Oh shit, the way I only listened to Mr. Midgett, nothing brightened me ...

>
> 4) Our spiritual master is the ocean of mercy, the
> friend of the poor, and the lord and master of the
> devotees. O master! Be merciful unto me. Give me
> the shade of your lotus feet. Your fame is spread
> all over the three worlds

Fame spread all over the Poland, Canada, Kazachstan by "recognized in the world but not in Australia as new world teacher".

That's all too complicated. Farewell!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 19, 2021 10:24PM

The analogy is not perfect, and the humor is typically Polish, with Polish mental flaws and the flaws of the communist system, but the mood fits perfectly. Scene from the comedy "Mis" ("The Bear").

[www.youtube.com]

Translation:

Quote

"- Tell me, what is this bear for?

- What for?

- Well, no one knows what for, so you don't have to worry that someone will ask.

Do you know what this teddy bear is doing? He responds to the vital needs of society as a whole.

This is a bear on the scale of our abilities.

Do you know what we're doing with this teddy bear? We open the eyes of doubters.

Look, we say, it's ours, made by us and that's not our last word!

And no one has the right to fault it, because it is a social teddy bear, based on six institutions - which will rot, in the open air by autumn, and what will you do then?

- Destruction protocol "

And reworked for the SIF reality:

Quote

"Tell me, what is this Midgett for?"

- What for?

- Well, no one knows what for, so you don't have to worry that someone will ask.

Do you know what this Midgett is doing? He meets the vital needs of the entire sect.

This is the deputy guru on the rock of our Hawaiian ability. Do you know what we're doing with this Midget? We open the eyes of doubters. ...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 19, 2021 11:21PM

I thought I would be able to close the doors on the SoI doors.
But when I look back at my tragectory and all the pain that was imposed upon me in the group and when I left, I am not able to do that.
Malcolm X said:
“We did not land on planet Rock. Planet Rock landed on us”.
I did not chose this path. It forcefully entered my life.
When I was 12 this philosphy was injected into my psyche.
I was raised by the greatest spiritual teacher who raised me.
She never imposed anything upon me but showed me how one can have unconditional faith without being a fanatic.
She was the most selfless person I have ever met and my relation with divinity was relaxed, non dogmatic, free....
I never felt guilty looking at other things, being attracted to other teachings...
Until Krishna consciousness forced itself into my life.
I became a fanatic, I never dared looking elsewhere, I started fearing god, I thoigh nothing I did was ever enough...
And when I left I was very obviously punished for it.
I will never forget until the day this body is alive, what happened to me last summer. No human being has that kind of power.
Many people leave this path but the path does not leave them. This is why they go back after 10 years. They are constantly harrassed through the mind.
Why would a loving entity want anybody to go back to the cult of butler? This does not make sense whatsoever.
I am really sorry to offend people in here, but I have zero trust in the forces that butler worships.
It is totally fine if my reality is not something many experience. Or if my insights are not well received or understood.
At this point I have lost my trust in everything spiritual, but I will stand by my own moral codes and hope that a universal justice exists.
I am at war with the nasty forces that are operating through him. His mental and personality disorders have made enough people suffer for decades.
A person who has no control over his mind, is controled by something else.
I have battled my own mind and psychic attacks since I was a child.
I know this area better than most people. I have been in and out of hell way too many times.
My contribution in here will only end the day this body comes to an end.
I will not let the suffering I have endured in the hands of the cult and the unseen forces be in vain.
Dawatcher, no need to answer. Free yourself from this mess.
It is time people find out that the path of krishna consciousness comes with ahigh price.
That butler and Iskcon are a proof of the fact that this path is not as benevolent as many may think.
It is time to stop pointing a finger solely at demonic gurus.
We must have the courage to accept that we have been monumentally fooled on every single level.
If the vedas are the absolute truth, then I guess I have gained a ticket to the hellish planets for my offenses.
But I think I will have some good company there with butler, wailana and some his minions.
I hear they do not serve Evian there.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 20, 2021 02:05AM

I have the full Butler kitchen rules if anyone ever wants it. It might have also been uploaded to the Kailua Cult FB page. It\’s not 300 pages. It\’s long, but not 300 pages. Lol. The Butler Kitchen Rules Samhita.

The boat accident was a cover-up and a tragic accident that was never dealt with properly by SIF. They gave the family like $500 via thier go-fund me page. Fucking ridiculous and disgusting. 2 numbnut butler boys arrogantly killed a man and had a history of reports of reckless clearing out the water so butler can lay down and sunbathe on his $70K boat.

If I ever read another verse talking about someone\’s lotus feet I\’m gonna vomit. Indian scriptures and their endless fascination with feet are disturbing and unwarranted. Never mind the fact that all such referrences are bluntly Indian—how is that a universal religion? Trust me, the tribes of the ancient Sahara Dessert worshipped a Cactus-eyed god and a the Eskimos worshipped the icicle-foot of their god. The closest thing that has any universal appeal and non-sectarian approach that came out of India is Brahma-vidya/Advaita. It\’s also the closest thing to a rational approach to understading conscousness and the manifest universe. But all that aside, it is still a theory and opinion.

Don\’t get me started about the cult\’s habit of worshiping plastic replicas of their guru\’s body or the fact that all the images of Butler at his various centers are of him in his 30s. Completely irrelevant and body-focused/personality worship cult drivel. It always made me feel like doing into a shopping mall and seeing mannequins.

No one in butlers group who is an old-timer or part of their family of old-timers is a good person. They are all complicit crooks. Anyone who has read this forum and been around in the 70, 80, and 90s and saw this cults activities and butlers actions and words during those years and stayed with him or remained in this cult is a crook or severely mentally ill (and need professional help) and self-deluded.

Anyone who remains a disciple of this diaper-wearing, crack-toothed, degenerate tin-foil-mafia guru is a waste of human existence.

The days of these clowns hiding behind some naive spiritual cult front are over. The days of abuses and negligence and lack of transparency and responsibility of these types of groups are OVER. At least on this forum. They avoid this place anyway, so speak your mind, get it off your chest and realize that if your blue god is so petty that he is protecting crooks and criminals and considers them so dear to his heart, then this is no god of ours. I would rather believe in no god and guru than a god and guru like that.

Like the Revelations text, Kalki purana are doomsday prophesies written in recent times:

Kalki Purana is a relatively recent text, likely composed in Bengal. Its dating terminus ante quem is the 18th-century.[4] It is likely Bengal because its earliest manuscripts have been found in Bengal, and these are Sanskrit written in Bengali script, states the historian Sumit Sarkar. The colophons of these manuscripts places them in the 18th-century.[5] According to the Indologist Wendy Doniger, the Kalki Purana is broadly dated by scholars between 1500 and 1700 CE, though these earlier dates are conjectures and no manuscripts from or before the 17th-century are known.[6]

The fact is that humans like this have existed since the dawn of time. There was no grand vedic age. No proof of such exists. Yet there is ample evidence of early hominid activity all over the world and grand history of violence being a defining factor of all major civilizations. Point is, that texts like this like to act as prophetic, but in actuality, they are just the ramblings of religious fanatics who want to paint a picture of some dark age we live in. The reality is that we live in a million-fold better conditions now than ever in the history of humans. There is 10xs the population on earth of humans than ever before and we cooperate on massive scales to solve (and inevitably create) problems. We cooperate and communicate over vast geography, language barriers, and have access to endless comforts and solutions to ease our life and otherwise live happily. As long as we are not in a region with oppressive governments or archaic religions dominating the discourse of our life, we are living in profoundly better circumstances than our ancestors without argument or historical parallel.

And now for some humor: Out of all transportation methods Kalki avatar chooses a damn horse. Seems like the kalki purana did\’nt expect that we\’d have planes, trains, automobiles and rocket-ships and jet packs by now (I personally would believe the purana immediately if they said he was flying around in a Jet Pack using bio-weapons to kill Buddhist). Out of all the fancy available weapons in the world he could use to wipe our \”mlechaas\” (literally outsiders/foreigners in vedic sanskrit-traditionally referring to greeks and romans and others who ventured into India), buddhists, atheists and materialists (I\’m guessing sankirtan and less violent methods didn\’t work to convince everyone), he\’s using a sword.

Kalki is not a real person, nor is Kalki purana a prophesy of anything or a revelation of anything. All prophesies that come to pass are simply based on statistical probability or a wild guess. There is few if any prophecies that have come to pass. Prophesies are vague and open ended. They do not predict the world we find ourselves in today. And even if they do, to some extent, what does it really solve or explain? Here, I\’ll make a prophesy: In the future, those who are even mildly intelligent, will abandon archaic religious ideas and take responsibility for their own actions. Such people will live a full and happy life upon the earth.

A modern human who believes in a blue guy riding a white horse slaughtering buddhists (it\’s right there in the Kalki Purana-not making this shit up guys!), who is conveniently born into a caste brahmin family (there\’s that pesky vedic caste system always rearing it\’s ugly head) to make the planet all \”pure as a crystal\” again, is delusional. I\’m sorry. I can\’t bare to keep silent on this topic.

I don\’t want to offend you guys, but lest face it, it\’s pretty nuts after all you have seen and the silliness of these cults that you end up here, bad mouthing them, but somehow hold on to the very things that have resulted in who they are. Butler is a follower of and proponent of this cult and his persona is a direct reuslt of it\’s various belief systems and teachings.

Bhaktivedanta et al (even the most stalwart fo the gaudiya vashnava preahcers) were religious fanatics. Most of them, your Bhaktivedantas, Bhativinodes, Bhaktisiddhanta and all the Gaudiya math gurus and so on were BORN INTO THIS RELIGION. They were ALL born into caste brahmin families and raised with no other concept than their religious books, gods and gurus. Think about that. They did not study, practice or explore any other doctrines, faiths or spiritual or philosophical systems. They were not seekers searching for truth. They were simple accepting what their parents told them was truth and then they simply continued in that vein. For all intents and purposes they were child-like in their fascination with the krishna myth and philosophy. They did not ever defeat anyone in arguments (mostly surrounded by people who confirmed their religious bias), they did not offer any substantial proofs fo the so-called superiority of their \”vedic\” ideas. They simply claimed it, and that was that. Then they claimed the Chaitanya saint was god and then they extended this god-like position to themselves and the whole guru charade.

Kalki Purnana holds no prophesies nor any useful information. I\’m sorry that I continue to play the voice of reason on this forum. I know many of you still believe in this stuff, but I plead with you to not just take it all with a grain of salt, but actively try to free your thinking from it. I really do believe the essence of this cults success lies in the very divisive circular logic used by them. The endlessly quoting scriptures to support flawed ideas and support unverifiable claims is at the crux of it and needs to be weeded out to truly heal from this cult.

Take this verse from Hari Bhakti Vilas which, to a devotee who has been brainwashed for years sounds \”glorious\” and elicits a mindless \”jai jai!\”:

A person who eats too much, procrastinates, is greedy for things not in connection with Sri Krishna, argumentative (in connection with this Jamini, Sugata, Nastika, Vagna, Kapila and Gautama with their followers are persons who practice agrumentation-hetuvada), wicked nature, strongly critical as well as relishing the misdemeanors of others, defamer, serve unworthy people, black teeth, black lips, who has foul odor emanating from his mouth, has bad qualities, is fond of amassing goods even though already having a sufficient amount, without hair or with excess of hair, are not the symptoms befitting an \’Acarya\’ (teacher). All of one\’s wealth and opulence will diminish in the acceptance of such an unqualified Guru.

First off, the verse completely blocks off opposing views. So immediately those who are not of their faith are lumped into a class of \”argumentative\”. Then a bunch of vague ideas are tossed around: Wicked nature? What every could that be? Black teeth and lips? Holy crap-is this seriously a thing? Ancient Indians must have had some seriously bad dental hygiene to even include that stipulation in there as a stipulation for being a guru. God forbid a guru develops any dental issues. I honestly cannot say I know a single guru who does not have WAY more than they actually need. And then randomly, the guy should not have too much or too little hair. Is this a prescription for a specific haircut style??? Speaking of nasty ass teeth, Butler needs a news dentist.

Another one: In Mantra Muktabali, the appropriate qualities of a disciple are given:

He should be born in a good family, be modest, opulent, possessed of loving disposition, truthful of pure character, very intelligent, free from arrogance, have given up lust and anger, surrendered to his Guru, with his mind, body and words, always devoted to the Supreme Lord, free from disease, freed from all kinds of sinful activities, sincere in honoring his elders and brahmins, of controlled senses, very youthful and compassionate. All these qualities make one eligible to be a disciple.

Is there even one person on planet earth that has these qualities in one person? Does the guru make sure that a potential disciple has these qualities before they initiate someone via skype?

I know I try to make light of this stuff and throw a joke in here and there. I am sorry if this disturbs your faith in this cult, but these are just small examples of countless such hodgepodge verses with abstract rules, regulations, conditions, stipulations and assorted vague passages that fail to explain themselves in any substantial detain and simply move on to the next thing.

I mean the body of so-called \”vedic\” books spans the gamut. Saying it\’s vast is an understatement. Basically there is no real verification method weather a purana was written last year, 100 years ago or who wrote it or if it is indeed in line with other puranas, upnaishads and vedas. The answer to that is they are not. Not by a long shot. Each and every one has contradictions, endless verses in support of various gods, and if there is not enough verses supporting some obscure or less known god, anyone is really free to add to it. And we see this time an again. In fact, Vaishnavas sects are the biggest contributors to this never ending array of puruanas related to gods that are not even mentioned in the vedas.

But again, I ask that you read the vedas for yourself. Let me know if it is indeed the insights of great thinkers or simply ancient people trying to make sense of the world they live in. Creating rituals and myths to sort out and explain life, the universe and natural phenomenon.

I proposition to you, if this does not all sound to you like shear endless madness where you are at best resolved to a life of feeling really bad about yourself and ever experiencing happiness, I really don\’t know what does.

They have effectively created a cult that is so deeply rooted in a disgust for anything human (lest it be using the human form to serve the guru and blue god who you cannot really question or ask any legitimate questions about or in any way explore beyond the surface pre-ordained ideas they spell out), a disgust for natural order, biology, and rational thinking. A cult that has so many rules, regulations, conditions for being considered worthy of a gods love. Nothing short of perfection is basically allowed (while god has spared no manner of ways to keep us down). Only the \”pure\” one gets to have a relationship with the god and only the perfect one makes real meaningful progress. This idealism and focus on perfection creates and endless tension and stress. And this is right in their scriptures and the words of their acharyas. There is no hiding or buttering over this stuff. This is literally what they believe. Of course there is always someone who will tell you to just relax and chant hare krishna and promise you that all will be revealed, but one cannot help to think that such talk is just a pleasant way to tell you to shut up and get back in line.

I have been in the company of many \”advanced\” pure devotees. The only thing that made them such is thier fanatical adherence to their guru or the amount of verses they know. And the amount of fanatics following them. I\’m serious. Go to a gathering where there is some guru that is popular and see the quality of the people there and who that guru would be without all those people lending them an ear.

I repeat: There is an extreme danger in handing your life over to these people and their ideas. It is largely based on sentimentalism. An unrealistic idea and expectation of what is actually going on or taking place. A total disconnect with reality. And these devotees are giving up so much to go down some abstract rabbit hole they equate with \”love\” and \”devotion\” and \”purity\”. Yet with all the conditional aspects regarding what their scriptures state about the character and lip color of a disciple and the hair length of people, its tough to imagine what kind of love is on the table here. It\’s certainly not what I equate with a loving exchange and relationship.

A guru is not a military leader DeWatcher. I think that one of the aspects of the Gita that has such an odd context is the idea that a Charioteer somehow was able to pull up a chariot in the middle of a battlefield, and sing a 2-hour song about offering flowers and leaves to him, among other random ideas to be talking about in that particular place. Talk about the wrong time and place.

This idea then trickles to the guru, who actually attempts to wear the hat of advisor to people they should never be advising. A sanyasi should not advise householders. A guru who has a lifestyle so far removed from everyone around them and unrelateable to anyone should not be preaching about anything to anybody. There is no relation point. It\’s like a guy who never fixed a car giving advice on how to fix a car. We all know what opinions are like.

The fact is that the role of the guru is hyper-distorted in this day and age. The average sanyasi has more women disciples than men. The average sanyasi is dealing with politics, money, businesses, management, and counseling. This is extremely impractical by any measure. The average sanyasi has property and financial control over land, temples and projects.

The guru is also never in a position to apologize (a sign of humility is being able to acknowledge when you are wrong) or be held accountable for misspeaking. No one ever stopped Prabhupada in the middle of his talks and questioned him on his various off-the-wall statements. No one ever stopped Butler and said, \”Hey, is this really the behavior of a guru???\” And this is problematic from the angel of guru tattva as a concept of knowledge transmission. The source of knowledge may or may not be perfect. In fact, in most cases it does not matter what the source is. It\’s up tot the practitioner and inquisitive party to do their due diligence and ask the right questions, debate, discourse etc. But in the role these gurus play this is very rarely how it plays out. It simply goes from hearing some casual feel-good lecture to all of a sudden surrender to this guy. And that is the culture these cults promote. It\’s not one of healthy skepticism and honesty—let alone grounded in reality and rational ideas.

Only after many years in the cult and devoting much time (investing ego and building a very core identity related only tot he cult) are many things revealed that are utterly BONKERS, but you simply gobble it up because it has been ingrained in you that to ask these questions or follow your intuition is \”Maya\” or \”aparadha\” etc. This is a complete nonsense way of trying to verify truth and gain knowledge.

A final point on this string of comments I want to make is about the so-called \”pure devotee\” garbage that floats around these cults. Butler on one hand is vocal about the so-called guru being self-effulgent and not appointed. However, as far as parampara and lineage go, this is actually very dangerous. Appointment of acharyas and gurus by Gaudiya Math and many other Vaishnava cults is a common practice. This is because, as opposed to guru\’s of the past, a modern day guru has many assets: Cars, temples, equipment, property, disciples, businesses etc. Appointment ensures that these things are cared for and maintained. Bhaktivedanta started a GBC not because he thought every one he appointed to be acharya on his behalf was some sort of pure person. He did it for functional reasons. Devotees going around claiming that such and such devotee who is \”on-site\” or close to the guru is a \”pure devotee\” as a result of some sort of osmosis. Magic. Inevitably it spawns a culture of hierarchy that disenfranchises the organizations structure. Because there may be many \”normal bhaktas\” who are more well suited to managing an organization like SIF or ISKCON, but they will never get to do so because they are not labeled as \”pure\”. I have seen time and again various efforts and programs get shut down in ISKCON and SIF because they were deemed unimportant or misguided by the higher-ups in the cults hierarchy. DeWatcher has mentions such specific scenarios. But they abound, There is one in almost every temple. I have seen efforts to create programs to help women in the movement or be more inclusive of other minorities or even diversify preaching programs only to be slammed by the senior devotees. Basically the dynamic in such cults is that everyone need to mobilize only in the the direction and effort to those that have been \”approved\” as \”pure\” or hold some senior status.

All this aside, one MUST remember, that all those who play the role of a guru/acharya/spirutal master have a grave responsibility. Unfortunately, scripturally and culturally in places like India, they are protected from much scrutiny, let alone vocal opposition:

acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit na martya-buddhyasuyeta sarva-deva-mayo guru\’

Oh Uddhava! The spiritual master is known to be My very form. At no time should one neglect or disrespect the Guru as an ordinary mortal by envy, nor should he be viewed as having any faults. For this reason the Guru is the sum total of the demigods.


These types of verses are highly problematic.

Take the life of even the most stalwart vaishnavas in this cult lineage. Many were culturally born into strict brahmin families. Think about that. I\’m talking about you BP Puri maharajas and Sridhara Maharaj et al. These were undoubtably great exponents of gaudiya doctrine. However, they were culturally born into these religious ideas. It was literally a near impossibility that they would ever see through the Krishna myth lore or even question any of it. It would be tantamount to spiritual death or even literal suicide by their estimation (never mind how messed up that is). And they were raised like this. Prabhupada married his wife when she was a little girl. They were raised with a strict brahmin upbringing. They also grew up in a time where there was a heavy nationalism and spiritual awakening in India and abroad.

Take a look at these types of verses:

susrusamana acaryam sadopasita nicavet

yajna-sayyasamasthanair natidure krtanjalih

One who is fixed in service to his spiritual master should humbly follow him while he is walking, to be vigilant while he is sleeping, at the time of his rest to massage his legs voluntarily and at the time of his sitting should wait nearby for his order with folded hands.


These types of verses basically immobilize and petrify the sincere spiritual seeker from asking any meaningful questions. A guru tells you that the world is full of suffering and that if you chant this mantra, follow this scripture and their instructions, your life will become perfect. In exchange you are to become his slave day and night???? Sounds a bit fishy, doesn\’t it?

But even this concept of perfection, purity, sinlessness, absoluteness etc-these are based on false notions. There is no observable, objective example of any of these. Is a follower who follows his spiritual master like explained in the above verses become \”pure\”? If so, what that is in effect stating is that one becomes \”pure\” or somehow self realized or perfected by virtue of following and asking no questions. At least not any meaningful ones. Or any ones that try to expose the fallacy of certain ideas. So the questions become stereotypical, almost programmed for the type of answer they are bound to give, Its a loop of confirmation bias. Because certain questions are off limits without risking being \”offensive\”, the only questions that get asked are the ones that are able to be easily or pleasantly answered. And if you are not satisfied with a particular answer the blame and heavy load of your inability to accept certain ideas at face value, become a reflection of your offensive or unqualified status (or unknowingly doing something). So that the only person who is EVER right, is always your guru and the scriptures. Any person who is rational and realistic can quickly see how this is problematic in ever assessing tangible truth.

I\’m serious, go to a garden variety lecture of one of these gurus and ask some of the hard questions or even challenge some of their ideas. It will not blow over well. You will be labeled a heretic and asked to leave. Butler was notorious for this. All the questions asked at his Jagad Guru Speaks lectures were pre-scripted questions.

Finally, I am happy to admit that we cannot know everything and nor is it always useful. But I then propose this same fact must also extend it\’s rule to the guru and scriptures.

We were often told that if we are not making progress in this cult then it is due to some offense we are making knowingly or unknowingly. Think about that for a second. It\’s establishing a no-win situation At first we are reeled in being told that just by chanting some mantra and hearing some ideas from the scriptures our life will become perfect. Sounds easy enough and doable. But as we \”progress\” and still feel ensnared by the onslaught of lifes up\’s and downs we are told that we are the problem. And how the heck do you get down to the bottom of the \”unknowing\” offenses you are committing??? If you don\’t know you are committing a damn offense, you are basically robbed of your spiritual life, is that right? So god loves you so so much, that he makes loving him so so easy-but not that easy! It seems like we are being asked to surrender and serve, and love and have devotion for someone who likes to essentially fuck with you at every turn. Why would a god do that? That even once you surrender, chant, follow etc etc-God will still keeps messing it up for you! If that is a loving relationship, I must have missed the memo. God the absolute gas-lighter.

Again, I am not negating that myth has it value and place as I have mentioned many times (read anything from Joseph Campbell to quickly see how mythology evolved with human life and it’s value to early man as archetypal understanding of psyche development). It’s just that all societies and civilization develop their myths in accordance to time and place. Nowadays, our myths are found in novels and TV/Movies we watch. A future society may look back on us and scoff at the naive things we watched/read. Just like my kids will watch some movie from the 80s and the relevance is lost on them, so the same goes for the large body of myths in the vedas. Thier import, gods, customs and culture are completely irrelevant to modern humans. We know so much about human psychology, the evolution of our species and the history of the universe, earth, life on planet earth that it’s a literal laughing stock to take any of the ideas of some old religious texts seriously. They have value, they contributed to where we are today, but we certainly don’t have much to gain going forward with these ideas/stories. They are simply twisted, irrelevant concepts that guru’s try to peddle and sell as absolutes and perfect knowledge and that is simply flawed. Life contains the good, the bad and the ugly and flows forward. In a constant ebb and flow. There is no escaping it. It’s built into the fiber of everything. There is no perfect state or perfected place we go to if we worship this or that guru or god. All we are doing is simply deluding ourselves and others. And that is a crime and those who peddle these ideas are responsible in their own way for spreading false ideas. They are guilty of confusing sincere seekers and people wanting real answers. Trust me, I really wish I could say otherwise. But after many years of researching, listening again and again to many lectures, reading various texts over and over, I am not seeing this all as a valid or useful path. At last not in the long run. It may have some use temporarily and help certain people with various aspects of their life, but in general it quickly fades and then starts to morph into the conundrum it is for most—a cult. Something they do with little thought and consideration.

It is as many of you have painted it, a sort of spiritual addiction. And this has nothing to do with the practical, applicable aspects of some of these cults outreach activities like saving turtles or feeling the poor or doing hatha yoga etc etc. But those things are irrespective of the Krishna myth and general Hare Krishna bubble. Anyone can get involved, and should, in some service activities to help the planet, fellow humans and themselves live a better life. But no need to get caught up in the useless nitty gritty of circumambulating tulsi plants and fantasizing you will die and wake up a companion of the blue god. Or that Butler is some intimate comrade of Krishna etc etc. All these ideas are so sadly naive that I can only say that if you cannot see it for what it is, then you deserve it.

On that note, and as always, RUN. Don’t worry so much where you are running to for now. Just know you are running to something more sane, grounded, and real.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 20, 2021 04:27AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have the full Butler kitchen rules if anyone
> ever wants it. It might have also been uploaded to
> the Kailua Cult FB page. It\’s not 300 pages.
> It\’s long, but not 300 pages. Lol. The Butler
> Kitchen Rules Samhita.

Send me a link in private message please.


> and realize that if your blue god is so petty that

Blue God. Visiting some centers I saw pictures with 6 forms of Krishna. Everyone was Krishna but not everyone was blue. Most of them were black, as far as I remember. Blue, black, the color of the storm cloud. Topic not discussed in SIF.


> The fact is that humans like this have existed
> since the dawn of time. There was no grand vedic
> age.

The topic is long and extensive. There is some knowledge about the Harappan culture, the civilization of Sumer, the Egyptian civilization, or the numerous migrations of peoples, for example the legend of the escape of Jews from Egypt, the hypotheses of expulsion from India or even Roma who also left India and are sometimes mistakenly associated with Romanians. Traces of common origin or intermingling are of course evident in religions, eg Zarathustrianism (the original religion of the Persians) bears the symptoms of being some kind of mutation of Vedism or a mixture. Science confirms the origin of many modern languages from the common language root of the Proto-Indo-European language. An interesting example is the Lithuanian language.

[pl.wikipedia.org]

Quote

According to the calculations of linguists, about 3,000 of the Lithuanian nouns used today are very archaic words, direct continuations of the formation of the Indo-European proto-language. Nouns from the group of basic vocabulary are considered inherited from the proto-language, including names of parts of the human body (e.g. akis - eye, ausis - ear, nosis - nose, dantis - tooth, pilvas - abdomen, sirdis - heart), kinship names (moteris - female, motina - mother, vyras - male, brolis - brother), names of the surrounding environment (vanduo - water, ugnis - fire, laukas - field, medis - tree, naktis - night) and names of animals and plants (avis - sheep, kvietys - wheat, parsas - piglet ... etc.).

The most interesting in our discussion context is translation of "devotee"

[translate.google.pl]

Devotee -> bhaktas

From scientific point of view what is certain is wandering, transforming and mixing.

The other examples are more fun. For example, the sun has a similar wording in many languages: sun, sunce, slonce, solnce. But in Hindi it is "ravi". Egyptian deity "Ra". It becomes amazing when you realize that in Polish the sun rises in the morning ("rano") and sets in the evening ("wieczorem"). (Ra)no, (Wi)eczor. Rawi. Ravi.

> But again, I ask that you read the vedas for
> yourself. Let me know if it is indeed the insights
> of great thinkers or simply ancient people trying
> to make sense of the world they live in. Creating
> rituals and myths to sort out and explain life,
> the universe and natural phenomenon.

I have already explained my approach. I am reading, I will be reading, it is inspiring. But I will give an example: let's take the mysterious vimanas that moved thanks to a combination of metals - in one of the legends.

One group blindly believes these legends, rejecting modern science. The second group makes fun of this - dichotomous system - there were no wonderful "vimanas".

But when we look at the subject scientifically, looking at the potential effects, we learn, for example, that:

Gold.
[pl.wikipedia.org]

Quote

While most metals in compact form are gray or silver-white, gold is yellow. This is the result of the approximation of the energy band of the fully filled 3d orbital (3d10) and the Fermi level of the 6s orbital, only half filled (6s1). The relativistic effects make the 3d10 orbital expand and 6s1 contract, and as a result the energy gap, the size of which is responsible for the color of the element, is only 2.3 eV. This value has been experimentally determined and is in line with the calculations provided that they take into account relativistic effects.

Silver
[pl.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Oxygen is readily absorbed by silver compared to other gases in the air. Attempts are currently being made to create a silver membrane that would separate oxygen from air

The issue of in-depth knowledge of phenomena, phenomena and having technology that allows, for example, the formation of appropriate materials in order to obtain the appropriate effects. Knowledge. The real Veda.


> A guru is not a military leader DeWatcher.

Yes, I know about it, but when you look at some of Chris Bulter's photos, the shirts worn are a bit "military in nature". One might even suspect the synthesis of an image. Also, part of the namittika dharma at certain times resembled military discipline in keeping with the hierarchy, etc.


> The guru is also never in a position to apologize

Heard sanyasis apologize.


> A final point on this string of comments I want to
> make is about the so-called \”pure devotee\”
> garbage that floats around these cults. Butler on
> one hand is vocal about the so-called guru being
> self-effulgent and not appointed. However, as far
> as parampara and lineage go, this is actually very
> dangerous. Appointment of acharyas and gurus by
> Gaudiya Math and many other Vaishnava cults is a
> common practice. This is because, as opposed to
> guru\’s of the past, a modern day guru has many
> assets: Cars, temples, equipment, property,
> disciples, businesses etc. Appointment ensures
> that these things are cared for and maintained.
> Bhaktivedanta started a GBC not because he thought
> every one he appointed to be acharya on his behalf
> was some sort of pure person. He did it for
> functional reasons. Devotees going around claiming
> that such and such devotee who is \”on-site\” or
> close to the guru is a \”pure devotee\” as a
> result of some sort of osmosis. Magic. Inevitably
> it spawns a culture of hierarchy that
> disenfranchises the organizations structure.

There is a lot of controversies.


> We were often told that if we are not making
> progress in this cult then it is due to some
> offense we are making knowingly or unknowingly.
> Think about that for a second. It\’s establishing
> a no-win situation At first we are reeled in being
> told that just by chanting some mantra and hearing
> some ideas from the scriptures our life will
> become perfect.

It is rather a SIF narrative. How is a perfect life to be when dealing with adi-daivik, adi-bautik, adi-atmik. In traditional line's teachings, it is more about meditation, and "split-vision" appears. It was also a surprising fact in the SIF when the "yellow book" or "Harinama Cintamani" appeared which explained in more depth "what the chanting of the Holy Name is all about".



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2021 04:36AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 20, 2021 04:29AM

What else can be added in response to the RUN FOREST RUN post, is to remind you that the SIF materials not only show pictures of Chris Bulter as a 30-year-old. The video lectures clearly show the movements of the cameraman and editor who show the impact of Chris Butler's personal charm and the immediate effect he has on the women of the audience.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 20, 2021 05:22AM

The only reason any recent pictures have surfaced of butler is because of the excessive critique on this forum highlighting that in over 20 years no new lecture or image of Butler was featured in any of the websites. Not until last year did the official SIF website feature a recent picture of him.

I sent you the DM link to the kitchen list from hell.

That a Sanyasi/guru apologizes is simply their humanity. The scriptures certainly do not dictate that they are ever flawed or wrong. Read the sastra. Nowhere is it stipulated that a guru is to admit fault for anything. If anything the fault always lays with the disciples. Even the ancients knew about image/branding/marketing. Once you admit flaw/mistake/fault—the bubble/illusion bursts.

There is no avoidance of three-fold suffering. Texts like Harinam Chintamani are mostly showing simple babaji life and promoting siddha pranali (grown men living together and whispering to each other which gopi they are). As soon as one reads such text it is very apparent that we are either sorely mistaken that the holy name is powerful at face value and unequivocally admitting that there is WAY more to it all than just sitting around strumming guitars in kirtan to the tune of Brothers In Arms by Dire Straights. My tendency is to be even more forward and realistic and say it is mostly wishful thinking going on. But to each their own.

Regardless of your attempt to prove vimanas existed (they did not, 100%) it is nothing with any formula in the vedas to show and has not been reproduced/replicated in modern times. What we do have is the invention of airplanes by the fucking Wright Bros. And plenty of science and rational explanation and advancements in such technology only in the last 100 years. The same goes for ayurveda and other naive "vedic" attempts by ancient people to solve assorted problems. While there is useful information in such "sciences" they are in no way comparable to modern discoveries. They had and have their place in history, but to claim some sort of "revelation" and absolutism in such knowledge is simply backward and not helpful in any way. Modern Inidan's eating cow shit and piss because Danvatari said it cures headaches is what is the problem in our world. I once heard a devotee claim that if you bury ghee in the ground for 50 years it can cure AIDS. Eating 50-year-old ghee is more likely to give you AIDS than cure anything. You know what they say. It's your best thinking that got you here...

If in the vast books of the veda it is still not clear how to make a fucking airplane or cure cancer it is a useless body of "knowledge" to modern man. Culturally it is fascinating and beautiful to see how much man was already thinking of this stuff some 1000 years ago. But that is all. It's interesting as a historical phenomenon of human evolution. Next!

And never mind all you support for Vimanas, they are described as being made of flowers and Swans, not alloys.

And I am sorry, but Krishna is as blue as smurf in most depictions and descriptions. That he is black or varying shades of blue in assorted traditions and locales is irrelevant and simply points at the fact that he is simply whatever color anyone picks that day based on their sentimental emotional outburst. Just like Jesus has a beard and looks like the hippie who sells weed to my kid down the street. In reality, if he existed, he looked like Osama Bin Ladin. But you know, that simply won't fit with white man's narrative.

Ironically, there is a slew of Rajastani images of the krishna god sporting a mustache. It was culturally in vogue. I have seen people painting Krishna on a surfboard or with big muscles etc etc. We see images of all sorts of gods painted in comic book style or like children's cartoons etc. We are just trying to make god relatable and box such ideas into a form that makes sense to our little human brain.

There is a funny story of a man who drank colloidal silver for 20 years every day and eventually turned blue. There is also a rare disorder that results in blueish skin. Trust me, it's a not a good color on skin. [www.youtube.com]

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