Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 07, 2021 12:42PM

Whirlwind if you are attached to this process, get in touch with the Narayana Maharaja group.
I communicated with a very nice disciple who used to be with iskcon.
When ACBP left the planet, she became a discipe of Narayana Maharaja.
They are much cleaner and decent people.
Say goodbye to those abusive,fanatical lunatics.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 07, 2021 02:03PM

Yes, there are many groups out there that have a more authentic flavor and approach to Gaudiya Vaishnavism than SIF. Just be aware, they are still cults. they fundamentally believe the same essential ideas. It's the general teachings and ideas that tend to be the trap and lock followers into unnatural patterns of thinking and relating to themselves and the world around them. In general, these folks are sincere and can be a happy bunch. I don't think that is my issue with them. It goes deeper. I mainly am speaking for those who want to, or have been really serious about it and were left with a lot of questions, perplexing emotions or a feeling that something was just not right about it all. If you are simply looking for another spiritual community to be a part of, absolutely, there are many options. Narayan maharajas group is actually one of the few that are pretty vocal about the "end game" of what this cult promotes as the prayojana: The revelation of one's eternal gopi body. At least they are transparent about it. SIF beats around the bush or even avoids it altogether. But that is in fact the central theme of the Gaudiya path. If that is something that sounds appealing to you, then go for it. I did not see that as a rational goal after years of studying the scriptures and scholarly commentaries on these groups. Nor did it mesh with my intuition. But that's just me. To each their own.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 07, 2021 02:56PM

Whirlwind! No, I do not think that Bhaktivedanta or his guru or Bhaktivinode or any of these people were bad. I think they were genuinely desirous of helping people and firmly believed what they believed in. Nonetheless, and this is just my personal realization, I feel that they were largely a product of their time, culture, social-political climate, nationalistic and driven by that age-old desire of fervent religious believers to establish their faith as superior and unique. But it's not. They believe much of the same ideology as other faiths: A soul who abides by some scripture and belief in a specific god they decree and then upon dying, they go to a heaven-like world where they experience total harmony and joy (goloka/heaven etc). If they fail in their faith, they go to hell or some variation of that basic theme.

The basics of Samkhya and the virtues of practicing sense control or any effort to control the mind have value. But this is not something uniquely realized in the veda or in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. All philosophical systems accept that such efforts have valuable results, teach us mental fortitude, allow us to really stay in the moment and not succumb to base instincts. Basically, it allows us to dwell and enjoy the finer things in life to meditate, reflect, slow down, delay gratification and so on. Atomic theory of matter and even guna theory, what to speak of the notion of a soul/awareness/consciousness is found in most philosophical schools and explained in various ways—some more rational than others. They don't require a belief in gods and goddesses and they certainly don't pass judgment on homosexuality, women, races and other religions. That is what attracts us to philosophy, rather than religious doctrine—its universal appeal, pluralism and fluidity of concept and evolution. Philosophy is subject to refinement, debate and criticism. Religion not so much. Gods and gurus require blind adherence and surrender to "work", self exploration is free of that. We understand ourselves in digestible measure to the extent we choose to invest the energy and time. With religion it's a waiting game for revelation while contorting to illogical rituals, traditions and beliefs that often fail to do the thing they promise to offer.

I don't deny the existence of supreme divinity. I just don't see the value in my life to dwell or worship or make-believe that such a divinity is blue, wears a yellow dhoti, and plays the flute. As an atheist, I don't subscribe to these types of ideas of god. I absolutely do not believe in a mantra mentioned in some archaic text to hold some secret power and solution to life. I have not seen in any devotees life that I know a sampling of happiness any deeper than that which can be achieved through any number of other methods. Most of what I see in these gurus is a deep sentiment and emotion. They have absolute conviction that what they are doing is "right". And when it results in a society/organization that suffers from deep disfunction and social disconnect it blames society, it blames the practitioners and it blames the age of "kali" and anything but the process as being flawed. No other method functions like this except religion. In any other effort and disciplne if we apply the method and it fails we reject it (at least the sane ones do). Yet with religions/cults it seems that we keep pushing through against all odds and signs pointing to the contrary? Why is that? Is it because religion fosters a type of childlike dependence and ultimately disenfranchises its adherents? Is it because it perpetuates an infantile notion that mommy and daddy will always be there to solve our bullshit and forgive us our trespasses? Is it because it promises that if we're good and follow everything to the T we will get a prize/treat? This is what I realized was largely at work within the structure of these cults.

And so, with that, I do feel that Prabhupada did "awaken" many to question their life, abandon simplistic materialism and give a spiritual methodolgy a try. And to varying degrees these things may have helped some, bolstered others, and confused others still. So has budhism, so has Vivikananda, so has this and that babaji and such and such western off-shoot of eastern paths. It's a small bengali devotional sect that gained some momentum in the 21st century. It arrived at the western shore just in time to capture the imagination of the the drugged-out, jaded hippies. It was a perfect time to convince a bunch of acid heads to shave their head, dawn medieval indian garb and bounce around in the streets preaching a message of feel-good singing and dancing. But we all know this was just the surface of it. We all know that this was not the ONLY thing being offered. We all know that much of it was not sustainable. We all know that you can barely find a dhoti clad, ashram-farm devotee in 2021. We all know the average bhakta chants on their beads maybe 4 rounds, has only read bhagavad gita and knows next to nothing about the fait they folllow. We also know that the deeper yo go, the more serious about it all you get that it can be a complete mind fuck. And I venture to say that this end-stage devotee who is bound to crave siddha pranali diksha and fully enter their sadhana as an imagined 12 year old gopi maidservant of some erotic god and goddess is not sane. The alternative is a sanyasi that goes around making disciples and playing on their sentimentality about the krishna god and being hosted at various venues, worshipped and adored while reading stories to grown ups and trying to convince them that they are somehow magically being elevated and purified and are on the cusp of getting the real deal. 40 years down the line devotees sit with eyes closed in lectures and kirtan trying their darndest to squeeze some few drops of sentimental tears from it all while labeling it "love" and "devotion". Usually while having no real meaningful and loving relationships in their life.

Several generations into this cults success we now have cohesive family units of folks whose children, grandchildren and even great grandchildren are "followers" of the faith. But they are followers in the same capacity as any garden variety "Christian". They go to some Sunday feast, smoke weed, have illicit sex, intoxicate or dabble and when they are feeling extra spiritual, post some prabhupada quote to their facebook page. That along with naive posts about "proof" of Hanuman's existence because NASA caught a glimpse of a landmass connecting Sri Lanka and mainland India, or that some shards of clay post off the coast of dwarka is proof of the god Krishna. Or my favorite, that OM vibration creates a Sri Yantra shape on a Tonoscope. They use this to convince their stoner buddies that "krishna" is the real deal man... Never mind the countless fake quotes that devotees post of Einstein and other thinkers and writers vouching for the bhakgavad gita. Never mind the nut jobs who quote Hitler as beig a follower of the Gita and naturally quoting the many assorted quotes of Bhaktivedanta claiming Hitler was not so bad, but we shall never say these things publically.

And so in a cycle, it goes that largely this cult attracts drug addicts, vulnerable people desperate for answers and intelligent people who had a religious upbringing to begin with but wanted a more avant-garde take on spirituality.

So that's the crux of it for me. I think Prabhupada was not by any means ill-intentioned. But as the saying goes. I don't think any religious fanatics are ill-intentioned. I think they unequivocally believe that what they are preaching is the truth. I think therein lies the danger in most of these cults. True humility is accepting and growing ok with the fact that we likely will die with not much more of an understanding of what this is all about than when we were born. As soon as you dictate that something is "absolute" a rational, healthy mind, responds with skepticism and questions till a satisfying answer is given that bridges everything. How often does anyone spend such time and energy to turn the unturned stones? Even a few of them? We usually stop at what "pleases" us and satisfies some emotion or sentiment. We go by feeling and intuition and then somehow we stop using those things once we go deeper. Is it mental fatigue? Is it laziness? Is it biologically wired in us so that we easily fit inot group/social structures? This is likely the rational answer. We stop asking and questioning because it makes us the "odd man out". That is how the caste sytem succeeded, how minor gods become supreme and how guru's get away with all manner of bullshittery despite evidence to the contrary. And the cult often has rituals and practices to even further damper and blunt our reflexes. Waking early, taking cold showers, eating frugally or fasting, self deprecating inner monologues, self abnegation, and pointless rote rituals that leave your mind numb and placid. Distraction and round about answers abound in the replies of Bhaktivedanta and Butler. Meandering themes, verses being quoted that don't really give much insight. How many times have we left a lecture with the main theme and focus being that materialists are like hogs, dogs, camels and asses. That material life is just about eating, sleeping mating and defending. That our desire for senses objects or our very own mind is the cause of so much sufferig at every turn. That spiritual life is a razors edge and that the solution to all this is to hop around and chant. Yet we can all atest tot he kirtan or lecture that has gone on for just a bit too long. You know the one. Brahmacaris who've been awake since 4am are nodding of, poor matajis are trying to sit straight but find themselves almost laying down and the head sanyasa has given the signal at least a dozen times to the kirtaniya to wrap it up so everyone can eat already. Even the dischorded kartels and poor sap learning to play the mrdanga is a humorous mental departure from the drone of the "all-powerful" mantra. Basically, it all loses it's allure eventually and it's more of a game of endurance at a certain point. Have you ever heard bhaktivedanta chanting on beads at light speed where you can hardly hear the actual words? Just sounds like Ha ksh ha ksh ksh ksh ha ha ha ra ha r ra ra ha ha. Or the kirtans where the swami is not even chanting? I mean was the swami chanting 16 rounds a day? I doubt it. You can't chant 16 rounds, write books and give lectures. How much of it all was he writing anyway? The majority of it was dictated by him and translated adn heavily edited by his close followers. You can tell. The first Bhagavatam and the later works have a different flavor. And the final books in the bhagavatam cantos show that his disciples had really no problem channeling his voice. Even the way many preachers in ISKCON speak when giving lectures often mimicked the swamis "Indian English" style of speaking. It's actually pretty comical.

Anyhoo. All this is my personal take and what has allowed me to sleep at night. I no longer get hung up on what part of it all was true or untrue or useful or useful. To me it was all a waste of my time, contributed immensely to a lot paint and struggle in my life, and left me with no real deeper understanding. If anything it left me feeling a deep lack of trust in my own self, an inability to form and maintain relationships unless they somehow looped back around to krishna and my guru and left me with anxious emotion about my life, spiritual progress and countless unanswerable questions that littered my mind. Once I saw through the charade It was really about cleaning house and getting rid of anything that was useless about the path—which ended up being pretty much everything. The only straggler involvement is my deep desire to help others see that this is not some grand boon for humanity that they offer, but mostly delusional thinking. I want people to know that no ill has befallen me, nothing happened that I can describe as negative. If anything I feel lighter, more grateful, driven to be the best person I can be and ever more curious and filled with wonder at a world and life that is very real and very much in front of me—not some distant cow planet. Yeee Hawww! But I keep my views here, on a cult forum. I am not trying to disturb the faith of my friends and family in this cult. That is their life. If they come here, they may read something and maybe it will resonate. Some come here to vent, others to campaign and others to drop some bombs. Something rubbed us funny in this cult and we started the long journey out of the labyrinth. Some may never quite get out and some have really found it to be a path they simply cannot live without.

If the various reasons I have given here for my rational rejection of this cult do not resound with you, I can only say this: It took me a long time to get to this place. 20+ years. Even to this day I research, read, and try to better review the assorted scriptures of this cult, the commentaries of the Goswami's and assorted scholarly works on this cult, its key figures and even lectures by present-day leaders. I have to say I cannot in all good faith say I see the value in what they are saying, the reality of it nor the sense in following it. It has become a perfect cult for the social media age. It's actually quite a colorful little cult. Its followers are generally nice and the more generations removed from the hardcore serious devotees, it has actually created quite a fun community. There is good people in this cult. But it's because they are simply good people—regardless of the cult. Just as any social and cultural or religious group will have its good apples and bad apples. In other words, it's not unique. It's not unusually specific to this cult. That said, I don't see them as a threat to be cracked down upon and done away with. But to be openly scrutinized, criticized, challenged, opposed, and rejected—100%—at least on this forum. Why not? They are the ones making bold claims and the burden of proof is on them. And rest assured, for every ounce of negative things that come out about this cult, there is a league of garbage trucks behind it (when Butler passes many will come forward and finally breathe a brave sigh of relief as they finally let go of secrets held too long. hell, books will be written. Hardcore followers will keep certain things secret to the grave. We may only know some surface stuff that has been buried and buttered over a million-fold till we brush it off as "no big deal". This is how groups like this roll. Everyone forgets, the cult morphs and evolves and changes with the times till eventually it is not even going to resemble what the swami brought to the west.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 07, 2021 08:20PM

Bhaktivedanta does come across as a kind being. Howevever he did make some comments that are very questionable.
I greatly appreciate your sacrifice for bringing this path to the west. And I will never forget what it did for me.
I do believe he was very linked to the deities he served and they gave him inspiration and strength.
I also heard he told people Kirtanananda was a pure devotee. And that resulted in a painful chaos. it also proves that unfortunately his vision was not perfect.
I know that most people in here may not have any interest in what I have to say.
I have more supernatural experiences than most humans. I have gained an understanding of this reality that is sometimes too fringe to share.
I know for sure that these human bodies as well as the mind is some kind of very advanced technology. I will just keep it at that. It goes much deeper.
In my experience the mantra activate something powerful in humans.
And this process is for sure the most elevating and powerful of all the other religious processes.
It does for sure elevate humans from a state of basic animalistic instincts.
It does also change the hearts and make a person kinder. It also has the potency to take people off of drugs and alcohol.
All the positives come with a high price. The price of giving away your own critical thinking and have a middleman decide for your every move.
Who to marry, where to live, what job to have, went to sleep, went to wake up....
It is also a great breeding ground for fanaticism because of all the offenses theories and the fact that they claim that this is the absolute truth.
There is absolutely no proof that the whole world was Vedic at one point..
Every part of this planet had their own civilizations and so-called gods.
Egypt had their own gods, Rome and Greece had their own gods, in South America they had different gods....
The only tiny traces of the Vedas that we can see is in south east Asia such as Indonesia.
I remember midgett saying that the north american indians were also basing thei culture on the vedas. Seriously? What a load of non sense.
The problem with religions is that it shuts off all the critical thinking of a person and they just accept what has been handed to them.
A person must be blind not to see the contradictions and to just accept what has been fed to them.
I no longer trust any spiritual path that requires worship and falling flat on your face.
It does not resonate with me that I loving and just god created us to worship him and he so easily kick them out spiritual world just because they were a little bit unruly.
This is pretty much what the cult of butler does. You have to be an obedient dog in order to be appreciated. As soon as you do some thing a little bit displeasing, they throw you out for a few years.
All path are valid to each individual depending on their own journeys and evolution.
As I said it before, I gained a lot from this process but I outgrew it. An now when I look back there is no way I could ever return to surrendering my mind and will.
I am not sure how a person can benefit from reading thousands of pages about what went on millions of years ago. I have no way of verifying it and trusting this information. I think it is quite dangerous to blindly trust whatever is written.
The fact that the Devotees accept everything blindly is based on emotions and not logic.
Because the chanting gives a sense of ecstasy and Krishna reveals himself to them via some supernatural breadcrumbs, people have 100% faith that everything else is absolute truth.
A path that can potentially lead to murder, fanaticism, suicide, fear, abuse..... cannot be perfect.
Another thing that is very dangerous is that one becomes a complete doormat and too vulnerable for a very harsh jungle like society.
What this path turns people into, would require them to retire from society and protect themselves in their own communities and not to deal with the harshness of the outside world.
Fear is as great as love in most religions. Fear is a debilating emotion and I personally am not interested in relating to any deity that requires me to walk on eggshells.
If I want fear, I can worship the government.
All I know is that we do not know ANYTHING. All the information we have is based on lies mixed with truth.
We are not supposed to know the whole truth. Because it would completely shatter the whole system.
Bhakti yoga gives the illusion of empowerment. Yes one does benefit greatly from controlling the mind and senses.
For sure it does feel good to have a cleaner heart and care for other beings.
but the fear and fanaticism of this path, keeps people in a state of weakness.
let us not even think about being dependent upon another being who cannot be perfect. This has been proven over and over again with all these different gurus.
My lap dog had more courage than most of the men that I know in the cult.
No offense to souls that are born in male bodies.
Blind faith is dangerous no matter how blissful one feels.
Imagine if the law of attraction is real.
What great damage can be caused by repeating to oneself 24/7 that I deserve wors, I deserve much worse. I am the most fallen. I am the most sinful.
Let a damn bastrad abusive guru treat you like a dog and call it mercy and chastisement.
That hi abuse will bring you closer to God. How pathetic and psychopatic.
My life became so much worse after I embarked on this journey. I have had nothing but misery happen to me.
It is time to deprogram your mind. Understand that brainwshing takes years to rectify.
Even though I come across a the most offensive person on the planet,I will nvee call mysel a demon.
I do not need a rligion to put a label on who I am an what I am.
I spent years beinh abused by my own family and the spiritual family.
I believe all the lies they were saying about me. And it took me years to uncover what I really am.
To undo the damage that was done to me.
I despise the obedient, fearful dog side that was created by the cult of butler.
Unforunately I became the kind of dog that turns on their own master. unfortunately for Butler and unfortunately for me.
Love for the deities is a very sweet spiritual crack. I did for sure become addicted myself.
That addiction killed many aspects of myself. and it led to being in the prison or Butler for many years.
I am not one who sells my soul for some bliss and the promise to free myself from this pison planet.
They can find other suckers to milk.
Self respect is greater than any nectar the mantras and worship can offer me.
Butler is a mean version of ceasar milan.
All that he does as well as some of his nasty disciples, is to keep followers on a tight leash.
They put you in the doghouse when needed. And he throws you some maha prasadam.
Followers almost shake their tails when he appears.
If people enjoy being treated like dogs it is their problem.
As much as I love dogs and they are my favorite entities on this whole planet, I am born in a human body.
Not only will I not submit, but I will be a pain in their cheater’s necks.
I do somhow care for them and I am hoping our efforts to expose their non sense will wake them up somehow.
It is time for this 40 year old rotten tyranical system to change.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2021 08:38PM by Truth wins.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 07, 2021 08:42PM

In all my years of chanting I was never given the impression that the ultimate goal was to be a gopi.
we were told that our relationship would be revealed to us and it could be any of the 5 Rasas.
Bye for now. See you guys later!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 08, 2021 01:30AM

Well, regardless what Butler's group gave you the impression about, this is the goal of this group. They feel all other rasas are subpar to this relationship with the blue god and it's a focal Prayojana of the teachings. So much so that in his Krishna Samhita writings, Bhaktivinode describes any lesser aim as "ass-like". []

The rasa of conjugal affection is described as "topmost". So let me ask you something, hypothetically, because I think all this is a load of nonsense: If the top most rasa is Manjari Bhava, then naturally all others are "second place". What to speak of if it is revealed to you that you are but a mere grain of sand in Vraja. Then what? Is that not a big drawback? To know that the most intimate relationship one can have with the blue god is to serve in the role of a Manjari and help the divine couple in their "loving pastimes", yet here you are, a grain of sand for eternity. Let's say you're lucky, and it's revealed to you that you are a gopa (literally a cowherder farm boy—not much creativity in Goloka is there?) or in the mood of Yoshoda or a servant on the side lines. If your rasa is revealed to you, and all are equal in their value, then why call out Gopi bhava as top-most? Why create that hierarchy? Why call other rasas lesser? In fact Bhaktivinode minces no words in calling anything below that goal as "ass-like devotees".

But yes, sorry you missed the memo, that is the ultimate goal and offering of the Gaudiya lineage. That is what their acharyas promote and both Bhaktivinod and his Son, Bhaktisiddhanta, were given Siddha Pranali wherein they are told/revealed by their guru what their eternal gopi form is (whispered into your ear usually with minor details explaining your daily routine with regards to your service to the divine moieties). So, you know, put that in yer pipe and smoke it for all it's worth.

I argue that regardless of that, it's equally delusional to pretend that you are a mother to god, a boy buddy or a peacock feather for that matter. There is no rational way to experience such states without completely fooling yourself. Sahajiya babjis do it by dressing as gopis and rolling on the ground wailing tears of separation from their lord and Bhaktisiddhanta did it by being stoic and imagining such things in his mind.

I further ask, how exactly, besides your guru "telling/revealing" it to you does this get revealed to you? Is it over breakfast? How often do you stay in this state of awareness of your "true form/swarup"? Is it 24/7—shit that would be a mild disturbance would it not? Or do you have to wait till you die and then there is some waiting room you wake up in and get the good news (Spirit soul #222,1112,2344, you are the lucky recipient of a, wait for it! The body of a prepubescent farm girl!!!)? Is it revealed to you in English? Dutch? Sanskrit? Bengali? or do you just sort of get born into a Golaka farming cowherd community and it's all natural-like?

You see, these things are never specified. As usual, scriptures make generalized blanket statements that feel good on the surface and seem to make sense, but upon scrutiny, your guess is as good as Butler's and his Guru's gurus guru.

Hence, this leads me to abandon such highly unnatural and foolish idealization. I may not like suffering in the material world and I may agree that material life has it's ups and downs, but that is all not reason enough for me to completely abandon all forms of logic to live in a complete delusional fantasy.

Again, my 2¢. If it works for you and you honestly feel like this is not the top most offering of this cult that they hardly ever mention and reveal—especially in the butler group—then I don't really know what else to tell you. You missed the point.

I recall how when I was young, my male friends in the cult would imagine that they were Sakhas in their eternal pastimes with Krishna. Naturally, they were boys, this appealed to them. Think how disappointing it must feel when they die and wake up as a mere flip flop of Nanda Maharaj. Same with the women in the cult—naturally they were all gopis or in the mood of mother Yashoda. You know, we were all told that Tusta was a cowherd boy and Katyayani was in the mood of Mother Yashoda. What if I told you Katyayani was in the mood of a necklace Krishnas buddy rarely uses and Tusta, well, Tusta never made it to Goloka, his lot is to be a Yak fan in Vaikuntha... for eternity.

You see, you may blame me for having a "mundane" understanding of all this and that it is a perverted reflection etc etc. But all these concepts are based on human ideas of love, attachment, relationship etc. Why is that some rules that define material life and physics apply to these ideas, but then others do not and all of a sudden become "off-limits" or transcendental and beyond the conception of the human mind? I certainly can wrap my head around the assorted relationships one can have with divinity, I'm just asking for more specifics. So why is that upon further examination and discussion these things are all of a sudden a mystery? It's either all a mystery or it's not. And if it is so beyond reproach and questioning, then why even mention it at all?

Have fun guys. Have a blessed day and intense revelations.

And when you have a lucid moment, RUN.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: October 08, 2021 01:38AM

You know what else is delusional, RUN_FOREST_RUN? The idea that one can become greater than God. As if God needs anybody's help. This is what they are preaching now. Madness, it is.

This is the ultimate in narcissism.


While impersonalists want to become one with God, devotees can attain the position of being greater than God. In the intimacy of pure love, they can tell God what do to, and He loves to hear it.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 01:40AM by The Whirlwind.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:09AM

Truth wins Wrote:
> Whirlwind if you are attached to this process, get
> in touch with the Narayana Maharaja group.
> I communicated with a very nice disciple who used
> to be with iskcon.
> When ACBP left the planet, she became a discipe of
> Narayana Maharaja.
> They are much cleaner and decent people.
> Say goodbye to those abusive,fanatical lunatics.

Nah. I'm done with groups, period. At least for the sake of my physical health, I intend to continue to be a vegetarian. However, other than that, I'm (for the most part) done with it all.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Frozen Nick91 ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:11AM

Always this hatred on impersonalist. They don't know their 'enemies' well enough. Most so called impersonalist do not even call them like that and they don't discourage people in worshipping at all -on the example of Shankaracharya and Ramakrishna, this has been shown and talked about many times.
That's why the Butler group ignored me when I came to see my friend at the chants, because they don't wanna argue with people who think Shankaracharya was not just a slave of Krishna to howl the Buddhists away from India.

We need bhakti, but we also need jnana to understand the scriptures and its meanings. Otherwise dogmatism and fanatism are often the sad companions on our way to god. How many wars are fought for fanatical bhaktis in every religion, who claim to be better and superior than others? How much money is spend every year on worshipping, rather than on helping out? And yes now everyone can come with the great social services of ISCKON - but ISCKON is a huge organisation, they have to keep with the sound of their time, otherwise they will die. And then they (Of course) will enable more women to teach in their temples, and they will make charity with their money - but it is simply politics, because it happens under their very narrow and dogmatic flag of bhkati- as we know it from many abrahamic religions too. And after all: not the person has authority, but the knowledge. Every genuine teacher will foster the curiosity for god more than pounding on succsessor names and his own alleged skillfullness. If you do not have good arguments for your made-up religion, than this is the only way to keep fanatical and blind people close to you. It is like that: Oh King, why are you killing so many people and cause so much suffering without explaining why? And the King answers: because I am the king and my father was the king and my grandfather etc. And the King's people answer: Aah OK we understand, then you have the legitimacy for all cruel things in the world, of course. We are so simple and don't understand your high, aristocratic will, that will lead us.

The hindu philosophy and it various schools of thoughts, are still part of a hollistic system, that is based on the Upanishads and is perfectly designed, very logical, to please everyone, no matter what you want to emphasise. And this has been completley toren apart and reduced on 0,1% by ISCKON (and SIF as well), which of course leaves a lot of mystery and questions, (they also never refer on any of the major Upanishads) because you cannot take one part of the body away and claim this is the whole body. It makes me sad, because it created many fanatical and dogmatic people, especially in the West, where the teacher/guru aspect is misunderstood in the most dangerous and extreme way.

And yes I agree with RUN, that Bhaktivedanta and others did not have bad intentions in the frame of their reality, but you can claim the same about Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin, who both thought they will lead humanity in a glorious millennium, even if it costs suffering, murder and millions of deaths. This seems like an extreme example but the mechanisms are the same, and it can be religion or ideology that makes people believe and do all kinds of terrible things to attain their goal and to proof superiority. If you are in a bad and seriously hopeless place in your life, then anything that feels like a solace can become your new 'monotheism', especially in our Western culture (sorry to say it again) where we love 'headlines' and 'labels' because we cannot deal with 1% ambiguity in life's reality.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 03:29AM by Frozen Nick91.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:19AM

The Whirlwind Wrote:
> And they teach that crap to abused kids?! How do
> they tell that to kids who were abused in their
> schools?! How can somebody tell a little who as
> raped when he was very young, that he deserved it
> whether he realizes it or not?! What?!

This narrative forgets the presence of the place - Patalaloka and the governor of hell - Yamaraja in philosophy. As can be seen in philosophy, there is room for the division of responsibilities - some in the usual "field of action" - some in hell ...

However, some SIF members present a narrative that goes even further and believe that the victim should apologize to the torturer ...

This, of course, runs counter to the idea of Manu's legal regulations, the existence of Yama - universal moral principles. In comparison there is the Law in Christianity - God the Father gives judicial power to the Son ...And further, according to the laws of Noah, the state as such should introduce just laws ...

> DwWatcher,
> Thank you for your quote from the works of the
> goswamis to support who in your mind is qualified
> to make disciples all over the world.

You commented on the quoted quotes in long, but the aspect I wanted to emphasize was that in SIF the Guru or devotee qualities are broken or at least bent. It is no accident that those who are the most effective businessmen are selected to the new council of SIF sages ...

First, if someone wants to be a teacher of the whole world, and stay strict to Bhagavad Gita, has to answer letters of the disciples.

> First off, the work in question, Nectar of
> Instruction/Devotion and other works of the
> goswamis like the Tattva sandharba are hinged on
> the premise that the Bhagavatam is a vedic
> scripture.

There is an academic discussion, which can be seen on the Polish Wikipedia also, what is the canon of Vedic scriptures, etc. Anyway, if SIF accepts the comments and writings of Parampara teachers, it cannot neglect them. Among other things, the "Nectar of Instruction".

But you won't hear many things in SIF. Like me, for many years I have not heard that the chief theologian of Gaudiya Vaishnava is ... Jiva Goswami.

> The rules and regulations described in vaishnava
> texts are varied and broad. it starts with 4
> regulative principles but quickly one realizes
> that there is some rule and regulation for just
> about everything including wiping your ass with
> your left hand and not touching your japa beads
> with your pointer finger cause its "impure".

All religious systems have their own regulations. More or less detailed. In the case of Gaudiya Vaishnava they have their denominator - more or less general spiritual laws and the theory of gunas. Hence the increasing detail. This is not surprising. Fractal dynamics.

> The guru maintains his lifestyle because his
> disciples are willing to engage with the outside
> world and work and make money.

They do what they think. But that doesn't mean it will inspire confidence or interest. The world is full of ambitious money-earners and amateurs of comfortable living.

How does this affect your perception of transience? No impact.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 03:27AM by DaWatcher.

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