Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:25AM

Can anybody pls tell me what Tulsi Gabberd has been up to, lately?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:25AM

> The revelation of one's eternal gopi body.

Actually, it's the body of a Manjari maidservant. A Manjari as a leader. It's Gaudiya line, not Nimbarka's.

Truth wins Wrote:
> In all my years of chanting I was never given the
> impression that the ultimate goal was to be a
> gopi.
> we were told that our relationship would be
> revealed to us and it could be any of the 5
> Rasas.
> Bye for now. See you guys later!

And never heard of Kamanuga Bhakti or Sambandanuga Bhakti - as terms...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 03:31AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 08, 2021 03:38AM

> I recall how when I was young, my male friends in
> the cult would imagine that they were Sakhas in
> their eternal pastimes with Krishna. Naturally,
> they were boys, this appealed to them. Think how
> disappointing it must feel when they die and wake
> up as a mere flip flop of Nanda Maharaj. Same with
> the women in the cult—naturally they were all
> gopis or in the mood of mother Yashoda. You know,
> we were all told that Tusta was a cowherd boy and
> Katyayani was in the mood of Mother Yashoda. What
> if I told you Katyayani was in the mood of a
> necklace Krishnas buddy rarely uses and Tusta,
> well, Tusta never made it to Goloka, his lot is to
> be a Yak fan in Vaikuntha... for eternity.

Nobody said that the spiritual body corresponds to the nature of the feelings manifested in the relationship with God.

> You see, you may blame me for having a "mundane"
> understanding of all this and that it is a
> perverted reflection etc etc. But all these
> concepts are based on human ideas of love,
> attachment, relationship etc. Why is that some
> rules that define material life and physics apply
> to these ideas, but then others do not and all of
> a sudden become "off-limits" or transcendental and
> beyond the conception of the human mind? I
> certainly can wrap my head around the assorted
> relationships one can have with divinity, I'm just
> asking for more specifics. So why is that upon
> further examination and discussion these things
> are all of a sudden a mystery? It's either all a
> mystery or it's not. And if it is so beyond
> reproach and questioning, then why even mention it
> at all?
> And when you have a lucid moment, RUN.

Those are good questions. I asked similar and got no answer. Too advanced.

Regardless of this, I experienced OBE, NDE (near death experience), disturbance of time perception, in deep meditation descending below the level of consciousness described as "desire to breathe" or the survival instinct in the outside world, after the lecture on the retreat of "freedom from the mind" having a more Buddhist character of realisation, pouring prana with breath, a great sensual void in which you'd even rather be a cockroach than experience "scary nothing" which in the personalistic process is a certain paradox. So, in this sense, it went much further to me than mental speculation about religious concepts, myths, etc. Anyway, one of the initiates at SIF was surprised by the level of my introspection. And maybe it was 1/20 ...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2021 03:42AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 08, 2021 04:58AM

Whirlwind—Right, it's definitely a great up-sell. For the average narcissistic hipster, this is honey to their ears. Controlling god... oh the possibilities. Wonder if anyone up there could put in a word and make god stop world hunger and suffering in general.

But this notion of God being controlled by the love of his devotees is not some modern-day idea. It's actually a foundational concept of most devotional cults in India.

Never mind the fact that in healthy human relationships the goal is never to control the object of one's affection. Can you imagine a dating website advertising that you can find an ideal match/partner and even get to control them eventually if you love them enough? Again, these are just simply all unnatural ideas. In a time when pastoral Romanticism was high in the air and these devotional cults were taking shape, it was sort of a pleasant form of religious entertainment not subject to the rigor and ruling and elitism of brahmanism. So it had a great appeal. And in this day and age especially in the fifties and sixties when Catholicism and Christianity had a very restrictive effect on people's lives, it was a ripe time for this type of group to take hold of the imaginations of young drug-fueled hippies.

Ultimately all these ideas are based on a type of Romeo and Juliet fascination. They are trying to capitalize on the natural biological reality of humans always wanting to experience/relive these initial moments of new budding love. Definitely, a novel concept as far as theism and religions go. But like with all spiritual pursuits, it deserves substantial amounts of questioning and explanations. For me, after all was said and done, and after investing years and seeing others investing many more, it just didn't add up.

The thing is, the ancients toyed with these ideas and they are all valid spiritual realizations. Take achitya bedha bedha, which was not first posited by Chaitanya BTW. It spells out the notion that we are one/nondifferent from brahman/existence/awareness/consciousness/krishna, yet, we are also qualitatively different. So this becomes a shakti argument. And Shaktism is a valid school of Indian philosophy. Everything has an energy and potency of sorts. Advaita believes there is no distinction between it all and the perception of difference is an illusion and false. Dvaita believes there is a vivid distinction between us and the Source. This can be brahman or a made-up god that is a stand-in for Brahman or a universal reality/substrate/consciousness. These are all ideas and valid in assorted ways. Perspective/perception and imagination is all that is needed to realize that any number of these hold water as possibilities. However, a true spiritual endeavor/inquiry will usually span the gamut of these and result in a realization that all of these may have some truth. This is what makes the open-ended musings of the vedas so appealing—it's implied pluralism of possibilities. Religion usually forms when a group of people take specific fancy with a line of thinking and mostly out of laziness, hang their coat up and call it a day. So effectively, religion tends to be the end of our active, living spiritual journey.

A lot of times religious people get really offended by philosophers like Dawkins or Neitzche for suggesting that God is dead or that there is no god, but what they are effectively saying is that religion often stops us from continuing our inquiry, stimulating curiosity and allowing for organic, personal, realizations and growth. When we say, "God looks like this, acts like this and these are his words!". We are boxing in our thinking. Do that enough times and it does have a negative impact on our spiritual journey and the process of true self-realization. We tell ourselves that all we have to do is just chant this, read that and believe this and everything will be miraculously "revealed". The focus then becomes a series of external rituals, myths and child-like dependency on specific personages/gurus/gods/saints etc.

Even the last cantos of the Bhagavatam spell this out clearly in the Uddhava gita where the krishna god explains that we must ultimately use the environment and the world around us as our teacher (guru tattva) and garner authentic realizations by observing nature. They are largely monistic texts: []

And this interests me because it's actually a pattern of a lot of post vedic texts. They culminate almost unabashedly telling you that this god, these stories, etc etc—they are all just parables and stand-ins for the overarching vedic offering of Brahamavidya. They are like stepping stones to comprehend the human psyche, stimulate discourse and finally, ask us to continue our inquiry, keep going. So it's aim is to orient us and give us support, not to spell out the final word and lets just all jump around and mindlessly chant and delude ourselves we'll miraculously wake up in a gopi body.

I definitely feel the major drawback to Gaudiya Vaishnavism is their proposition that the Chaitanya saint was some sort of incarnation, secretly mentioned in some obscure verse and blah blah blah. He was a Bhakti convert and preacher. He did ot claim divinity. What he practiced/preached was his personal path and realization. It was so personal to him that he did not even bother writing any major commentaries or directive works as to how to get to his "level". The Goswami's attempted to do this but much of it devolves into dogma and religious fanaticism. And I mean that with respect. They were undoubtedly scholars, unbelievably devoted to their path and intelligent. They gave a more vivid shape to an otherwise unstructured religious movement. Much like Joseph Smith gave shape to Mormonism. He gave his realizations and visions a blueprint so people could in the least have a semblance of what he was on about. Bravo. I applaud the effort. Absolutely a phenomenal achievement to be able to effectively convey complex concepts and ideas using language. But as I've mentioned, upon reading them without the rosy glasses of a hardcore religious convert, I can see the flaws and am not so convinced.

DeWatcher, you say tomato, I say tomato. You get the idea. I understand that there is nuanced specifics about the different radha-bhakti Sampradayas etc. Everyone claims their unique approach to one-up the last guy. It's a spiritual pissing contest to me. I'm not sure what you mean by "Nobody said that the spiritual body corresponds to the nature of the feelings manifested in the relationship with God.", but alas, I can't muster the energy to care about the explanation as it's akin to discussing the color red of santas coat. I would venture to say that the answers are not too "advanced" as you gave the benefit of. It's that there are no answers At least not scripturally based. They will simply be made-up answers based on made-up ideas of religious fanatics.

NDE/OBE ad other disturbances of time perception have been shown to be directly related to brain and neural activity disturbances. There is nothing spiritual about it. During anesthetized surgery or comas, many people report seeing themselves or feeling people enter the room. These have been shown to be based on primitive centers of the brain that allow us to have a sense of location in relation to space, forms and sounds. It's how we perceive that there is someone looking at us or that we are being followed or that there is a presence in the room. It's an orientation mechanism of the brain that is part of how we evolved for protecting ourselves. When our consciousness is subdued do to coma or near death, these very primitive responses are the last to go. There are many studies on this. Not to mention your personal OBE and other consciousness disruptions are not proof of krishna, gopi bhava or anything really. They are simply highly subjective personal experiences that have possible merit and value only to you, and no one else. I'm not sure what you are mentioning them for. These experiences certainly do not prove anything regarding the beliefs of the gaudiya faith. And the fact that you write that you experienced such things is indicative that it was squarely in the realm of perception and awareness—hence consciousness. To say that you experienced something as being "below the level of consciousness" is a physical impossibility. If you experienced anything—it's within the field of awareness, hence consciousness is there.

My wife is a rational person, but even she has a hard time shaking an experience she had many years ago where she awoke at night, frozen, and hearing some deep tribal chanting and noises that got louder and louder. It affected her and she felt she had some sort of metaphysical experience. But factually, sleep paralysis has been reported and studied and explained very clearly as to why this phenomenon happens. It's a mild malfunction of the brain and usually lasts only moments but results in auditory and visual hallucinations. As a youth, I recall hyperventilating and having a friend knock me out by forcefully squeezing the rest of the air out of my lungs. I remember in this state having very vivid and detailed dreams, when in reality I only lost consciousness for several seconds—hardly enough time to generate that much mental content. Point is that consciousness is a very pliable and interesting thing and we know a lot about it, but we also don't know a lot about it. And we also know that without a brain it ceases to function in any meaningful and visible/measurable way. So the rest, after the lights go out, is and always will be pure conjecture and speculation. It's important to use our critical thinking when analyzing experiences like this and simply labeling them as "spiritual" or somehow transcendent and profound. Life is already profound enough. We need not give extra weight to things that can be easily explained by science and simple and thoughtful deduction and consideration. If we make a big deal of a dream or a lucid dream-like state and are that easily hoodwinked into thinking it was some amazing revelation, it's really no wonder why we gobble up wholesale such utter nonsense as the krishna religion. Critical thinking stipulates that phenomena can be explained—yet this does not detract from its wonder and fascination. The experience you are having right now, that is a spiritual experience. When you see that and can appreciate it as a fact, then it becomes very apparent that we have been fooling ourselves with all this other stuff as being some sort of higher spirituality. At least this is my personal experience. And it's very liberating to not have to believe in a bunch of woo woo to genuinely feel that.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: October 08, 2021 05:30AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN: please send me a private message if you will. I want to ask you for your advice about something, privately.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 08, 2021 06:01AM

Whirlwind, I have sent you a message. I am not sure I am able to offer much advice. These are my own ways of extricating from this group while still maintaining a desire to validate that one can have a progressive life outside the confines of this cult. But I am happy to discuss things in private if you feel it is helpful. I can't promise much more than I am openly stating here. These are my general sentiments. I make no claim to know anything more than anyone else here. My views are mine alone and based on my own conclusions. I don't speak for others on this forum.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: October 08, 2021 06:47AM

> These are my general sentiments. I make no claim to know
> anything more than anyone else here. My views are
> mine alone and based on my own conclusions. I
> don't speak for others on this forum.

Of course not. I never thought that you did.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 09, 2021 03:09AM

Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
> Always this hatred on impersonalist. They don't
> know their 'enemies' well enough. Most so called
> impersonalist do not even call them like that and
> they don't discourage people in worshipping at all
> -on the example of Shankaracharya and Ramakrishna,
> this has been shown and talked about many times.
> That's why the Butler group ignored me when I
> came to see my friend at the chants, because they
> don't wanna argue with people who think
> Shankaracharya was not just a slave of Krishna to
> howl the Buddhists away from India.
> We need bhakti, but we also need jnana to
> understand the scriptures and its meanings.
> Otherwise dogmatism and fanatism are often the sad
> companions on our way to god. How many wars are
> fought for fanatical bhaktis in every religion,
> who claim to be better and superior than others?
> How much money is spend every year on worshipping,
> rather than on helping out? And yes now everyone
> can come with the great social services of ISCKON
> - but ISCKON is a huge organisation, they have to
> keep with the sound of their time, otherwise they
> will die. And then they (Of course) will enable
> more women to teach in their temples, and they
> will make charity with their money - but it is
> simply politics, because it happens under their
> very narrow and dogmatic flag of bhkati- as we
> know it from many abrahamic religions too. And
> after all: not the person has authority, but the
> knowledge. Every genuine teacher will foster the
> curiosity for god more than pounding on succsessor
> names and his own alleged skillfullness. If you do
> not have good arguments for your made-up religion,
> than this is the only way to keep fanatical and
> blind people close to you. It is like that: Oh
> King, why are you killing so many people and cause
> so much suffering without explaining why? And the
> King answers: because I am the king and my father
> was the king and my grandfather etc. And the
> King's people answer: Aah OK we understand, then
> you have the legitimacy for all cruel things in
> the world, of course. We are so simple and don't
> understand your high, aristocratic will, that will
> lead us.
> The hindu philosophy and it various schools of
> thoughts, are still part of a hollistic system,
> that is based on the Upanishads and is perfectly
> designed, very logical, to please everyone, no
> matter what you want to emphasise. And this has
> been completley toren apart and reduced on 0,1% by
> ISCKON (and SIF as well), which of course leaves a
> lot of mystery and questions, (they also never
> refer on any of the major Upanishads) because you
> cannot take one part of the body away and claim
> this is the whole body. It makes me sad, because
> it created many fanatical and dogmatic people,
> especially in the West, where the teacher/guru
> aspect is misunderstood in the most dangerous and
> extreme way.
> And yes I agree with RUN, that Bhaktivedanta and
> others did not have bad intentions in the frame of
> their reality, but you can claim the same about
> Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin, who both thought
> they will lead humanity in a glorious millennium,
> even if it costs suffering, murder and millions of
> deaths. This seems like an extreme example but the
> mechanisms are the same, and it can be religion or
> ideology that makes people believe and do all
> kinds of terrible things to attain their goal and
> to proof superiority. If you are in a bad and
> seriously hopeless place in your life, then
> anything that feels like a solace can become your
> new 'monotheism', especially in our Western
> culture (sorry to say it again) where we love
> 'headlines' and 'labels' because we cannot deal
> with 1% ambiguity in life's reality.

I can't agree more. There is far-reaching implications and the proof is in the pudding with these groups (and believe me, there is plenty—some more gross than others, like the pro-hitler devotee sites, pro-trump, and all osrts of ignorant ass shit based on the Swamis words). You would really be very very hard-pressed to find a modern-day gaudiya group that did not have some sordid past upon closer scrutiny. And for religion so hinged on the idea of complete surrender (the hardcore gurus even go as far as saying we need to be like a slave) it behooves one to do the unpleasant work of actually getting to know a bit more about the guru. The reality is that this forum is like a public service announcement. If after reading all of this you still want to follow or "surrender", well, do so at your own risk.

How many people would walk into a ISKCON center or Butler Yoga center if there was quotes hanging on the wall that said "Maybe if the faggots stopped fucking each other in the ass, AIDS would stop..."—Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa. Or "Hitler was not so bad"—A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And this is just a sampling. Never mind the actual scriptures.

I once heard a lecture series by Bodhayan Maharaj about the glories of the Manu Samhita. What business does a modern-day human have in preaching the so-called glories of a caste-based, archaic, ass-backward religious dictatorship text and somehow trying to pass it off as relevant and valid? Another guru, one Narasigha Maharaj, was on many occasions heard saying bluntly racists things. A so-called scholarly article on his site opens with a question as to how we can establish that the Puranas are pat of the veda. He goes on quoting verse after verse FROM PURANAS in support of the puranas being vedic. Jiva Goswami does the same thing in the Sandharbas. You cannot establish the authority or realation of a text to another body of text by conveniently quoting your own texts. And the same goes for the so-called yuga dharma of chanting hare krishna. You think they'd slip the mantra in to a few more of the "vast" scriptures, rather than one very questionable Upanishad. And why is their own goddess not mentioned in ANY of their scriptures except for the erotic poems of Jayadev and a few straggler verses here and there. Anyway, there is little support from it all as far as some 5000+ year old ancient linage of anything except mumbo jumbo and half-baked ideas. The stuff that does make sense is not related to the actual faith but philosophical systems that predated any hare krishna faith by thousands of years.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 09, 2021 06:33AM

I believe that each soul is on their individual journey. And each person is on a different level of spiritual maturity.
This place is a huge spiritual supermarket. Abrahamic religions, The vedas, new age, Eastern philosophies....
I don’t think there is a right or wrong path and I try my best not to judge other’s tragectories.
I have had many mind blowing experiences with the path and I have no doubt that it is not bogus. Experiences that only belong in Scifi movies.
I also know that the fear of offenses is an absolute exageration and it does not cut one off completely.
I still had supernatural experiences after being very offensive to butler. And even somehow offensive to the path.
I am not promoting offensiveness. However it is overrated. It is their boogeyman.
There are times I wish this path could leave me alone. Even after everything I have written in here, I know that I can still relate to the deities if I wanted to.
This is why I feel very sorry for those who walk on eggshells all day long. That are under the thumb of butler and some of his disciples.
I spent all my years of chanting fearing offenses. I was afraid to do or say the wrong thing. Because I was afraid to be banned, rejected, lose the opportunity to be of service....
Now when I look back, I see that I had become overly dependent on the path, the guru, the bliss,the group. An leaving was as hard as an addiction detox.
There is for sure alot of robtic aspect to the path where people lose their originality. Critical thinking is not allowed whatsoever and one must accept everything as absolute truth.
The ultimte goal is to become as low and tolerat the starw on the street.
this goal is meant to bring one closer to God apparently. But the lower you get, the more the narissistic followers going to walk all over you.
There are days I miss that illusion as I see how many pieces of the puzzle are missing and how deep the spiritual rabbit hole goes.
I guess I am somehow grateful for landing at an abusive center. Otherwise I would still be there.
We can discuss the philosophy for days. The flaws as well as the positive aspects.
If one is attracted to the path, then good for them. It is where they are at.
My issue is why make those poor souls suffer with installing so much fear?
Overworking them, abusing them emotionally. Pushing them to the point of chronic illness and at times sucide.
My issue is with butler (also iskcon) and those who protect his lunacy and glorify him no matter what he does.
My battle is against butler and his elite team. I care about those I have considered brothers and sisters.
I have seen too many people suffer and cry. And we could never defend another person. We had to silently watch.
If people love Krishna and the path, let them follow it in peace. Respect their limits, do not take advantage of them...
The path does not have to be as difficult as butler makes it to be.
Chanting rounds, kirtan, preaching, deity worship and following the 4 regs are austere enough.
I personally take offense for all that he has done to the sincere seekers. Even if they have stockholm syndrome and see me as a demon, I will always feel sad for the fact that they do not know their guru is under some not so saintly influences.
No teacher who is pure and divine can make others suffer so much for his own interest.
Thanks to this forum and courageous souls such as Rama, Henri, Ian, Lalita, he can no longer hide behind the lies.
Finlly some transparency and protection for those who dare google his unholy name.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 09, 2021 11:43AM

When butler decided to create a more godly society with his secret weapon: Tulsi Gabbard, he did not know he would shoot himself in the foot.
A man who thinks that he is the voice of god on earth and who is actually shaming the Parampara.
It took decades of damaging many souls for him to finally get what he deserves.
I feel sorry for Tulsi. I hope one day she will realize that it was not worth it.
What a waste to be manipulated by a hybrid guru. God knows what goes on in the mind of this man.
This podcast has some graphic language content from butler’s homophobic lectures.
Imagine how stupid parents let kids listen to it.
When divine justice uses 2 strangers to crush him.
Of course these are considered demon who interfere with gurudeva to give people krishna.


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