Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 11, 2021 12:13AM

Just wanted to make it clear that by taking justice in my own hands, I meant exposing them even more outside of this forum.
Nothing extreme!
Also it is still a mystery to me how some so called divine forces allow such horrible things to happen.
The priests abusing kids, the abuse in the Krishna community, the fanaticism in islam....
I just know that a good teacher can create an atmosphere of love and respect devoid of fear. No matter what path and what religion.
I do not have an extreme affection for any of these paths or deities.
However if one poses as the representative of god (whoever that entity may be), they must take that responsibility very seriously.
This is why I insist on the fact that butler has shamed his disciplic succession.
Not that I paticulary want to defend Krishna consciousness.
I know they do not need my protection and defense. They have the means to create any situation they desire.
What is imoprtant to me is my own values and what feels right in my heart.
And bringing the lies of butler and his minions onto the surface is a mission that feels very important.
Tulsi’s lies and hypocrisy was just the last drop. Enough with the god damn fake facades.
They got away too easily before the internet war against them.
Now they must face their shame. They will never forget me that is for sure.
Midget, Tibby, Bellord.... will always be butler’s janitors and keepers of his dirty secrets. They are his partner in crimes.
No matter how many people bow down to them, they are nothing but puppets.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 12, 2021 01:58AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never mind the fact that in healthy human
> relationships the goal is never to control the
> object of one's affection.

In fact, emphasizing the control aspect in a relationship seems unnatural. In practice, however, interpersonal relationships are influencing. Impact in the short term means that someone does what someone else wants, or at least reacts. It is some kind of short-term form of control. In the context of love, it seems genuinely unnatural. On the other hand what at all love is?..

> Ultimately all these ideas are based on a type of
> Romeo and Juliet fascination. They are trying to
> capitalize on the natural biological reality of
> humans always wanting to experience/relive these
> initial moments of new budding love. Definitely, a
> novel concept as far as theism and religions go.

Generally speaking, when it comes to love, parental love is considered purer, in the sense of selflessness. A loving mother devotes all resources to caring for the child. On the other hand, however, there is also the maternal instinct and an attraction to children's sweetness, etc. There is a benefit to the mother here. The topic is interesting because once, as a member of the SIF, I observed a mother taking care of a child at the sandbox during the break between classes at university, and I analyzed this topic.

On the other hand, looking at the so-called love between individuals of two sexes - at least in natural terms - is believed to be closely related to sexual attraction. In practice, there is intellectual fascination, pheromones, warmth and attraction to the opposite sex. On the other hand, something is omitted that, at least in Poland, was once present, i.e. the so-called "white marriages" and therefore sexually unconsumed. The spouses were simply satisfied with each other, etc. Doctors confirmed the lack of consumption. So in this sense, however, in the material realm, they were still dealing with something that they call love, and that was not desire.

In turn, one Zen Master was asked about his controversial contacts with women. and he replied that it was not love, and it was not lust.


> The thing is, the ancients toyed with these ideas
> and they are all valid spiritual realizations.
> Take achitya bedha bedha, which was not first
> posited by Chaitanya BTW. It spells out the notion
> that we are one/nondifferent from
> brahman/existence/awareness/consciousness/krishna,
> yet, we are also qualitatively different. So this
> becomes a shakti argument. And Shaktism is a valid
> school of Indian philosophy. Everything has an
> energy and potency of sorts. Advaita believes
> there is no distinction between it all and the
> perception of difference is an illusion and false.
> Dvaita believes there is a vivid distinction
> between us and the Source. This can be brahman or
> a made-up god that is a stand-in for Brahman or a
> universal reality/substrate/consciousness. These
> are all ideas and valid in assorted ways.

Regardless of Indology, the topic is important, momentous. Perception takes place and it seems, at least by looking around, that there is some form of duplication of it. Human and other beings have quite similar sense organs on this planet. Eyes, ears, nose. With some accuracy, because other wavelengths of light are perceived by, for example, bees or wasps, etc.

The aspect of information theory in the context of consciousness, and more precisely - intelligence, is also important. Considering the theory of information and entropy in its approach in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that in closed systems entropy does not decrease, the principle of information growth regularly occurs when a conscious being perceiving dependencies makes a conclusion that creates this information, or by acting on the reality introduces this information into the structure, e.g. by building a car.

This in the context of transdendence is quite important, because upon death, theoretically the body disintegrates, but what happens to the information stored in the brain? The topic was so original that it prompted scientists to attack the theory of black holes and created such hypothetical creations as gravastars.

Thus the Vedanta cannot be denied that the subject is taken seriously.

> DeWatcher, you say tomato, I say tomato. You get
> the idea. I understand that there is nuanced
> specifics about the different radha-bhakti
> Sampradayas etc. Everyone claims their unique
> approach to one-up the last guy. It's a spiritual
> pissing contest to me. I'm not sure what you mean
> by "Nobody said that the spiritual body
> corresponds to the nature of the feelings
> manifested in the relationship with God.",

I mean "Nobody in SIF told that".

> NDE/OBE ad other disturbances of time perception
> have been shown to be directly related to brain
> and neural activity disturbances. There is nothing
> spiritual about it. During anesthetized surgery or
> comas, many people report seeing themselves or
> feeling people enter the room. These have been
> shown to be based on primitive centers of the
> brain that allow us to have a sense of location in
> relation to space, forms and sounds. It's how we
> perceive that there is someone looking at us or
> that we are being followed or that there is a
> presence in the room. It's an orientation
> mechanism of the brain that is part of how we
> evolved for protecting ourselves. When our
> consciousness is subdued do to coma or near death,
> these very primitive responses are the last to go.
> There are many studies on this. Not to mention
> your personal OBE and other consciousness
> disruptions are not proof of krishna, gopi bhava
> or anything really. They are simply highly
> subjective personal experiences that have possible
> merit and value only to you, and no one else. I'm
> not sure what you are mentioning them for.

These kinds of experiences are personal, subjective. Of course, the researcher tries to compare them with the available scientific material or the experiences of others. In the context of Vaishnava philosophy, I commented on it as a paradox that these experiences arose in the course of practice. For me, philosophy is lofty, interesting, it may have its drawbacks. The problem is for those who use it to steal from or destroy individuals.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 12, 2021 02:06AM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When butler decided to create a more godly society
> with his secret weapon: Tulsi Gabbard, he did not
> know he would shoot himself in the foot.

I have emphasized here the inconsistencies of this "Tulsi Gabbard" legend, its founding myths and other legends. About the fact that if the next marriage is to be on the "vanaprastha" level, why is a grand ceremony organized? Full of glitz. Dedicating science for political purposes? Later, the question is why abortion and subsidies from and for Planned Parenthood are accepted for political purposes of political affiliation, since relativization is heavily attacked in Srimad Bhagavatam in the context of e.g. meat eating. Then a question about the consistency of a message such as "America will not be a gendarme" when the founding myth of the heroic candidate for the US president is a soldier from Iraq, where there were about 1.6 million victims of this war. And so on...

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Midget, Tibby, Bellord.... will always be butler’s
> janitors and keepers of his dirty secrets. They
> are his partner in crimes.

Often it is "Butler this", "Butler that". I have not seen him with vivid eyes. In Poland, people wondered why there have been no lectures for a long time? Or maybe this Butler has been dead for a long time? And a scene with a double is played. And next to it, there are many sweet pictures with Our Lady of China and Hawaii - Wai Lana. Meals by the sea, flowers on the head. Spiritual virginity? Not very authentic for a divorcee. A non-working Midget who was a coast guard and knew dolphins. World famous teacher but they don't know him ... All these legends seem false.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:09AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 12, 2021 02:33AM

Or another paradox. Initiated vs uninitiated. I already wrote about it, but another example. One woman. Always with the homeless. Giving them food, giving them Gauranga mantra, kirtans. Peak empathy. 25 or 30 years of faithful service. Uninitiated. And what? Some Midget or former leader arranged for her to approach the guru? Nope. Sanyasis would call something like this a scandal. But who cares. She devoted her life to service, homeless etc ... Who cares.

Well, SIF must be a sect ... In a normal sanga something like this would be impossible.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:45AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 12, 2021 02:36AM

[.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:37AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 12, 2021 09:38PM

I have been part of this forum and community for a few months now.
I am asking you all to receive what I am saying with an open mind, compassion and a very open heart.
I know that it is not easy to enter my reality without judging my lucidity. However I can assure you that unfortunately I do not make things up.
If you ever read my post on “the mystical forces that led me to to K...”, you will learn about my story and how I was led to this covert cult.
I am not sure whatsoever how this whole thing operates, but somehow or other, some forces have the back of butler and his group.
Is it the deities themselves (greedy for love and worship) or some other dark forces?
I have been under severe attacks since I left and even more severe attacks since I started posting here.
I will not get into the details of what happened to me last summer but let us say it got very ugly.
I entered at war with them directly via email and at the same time I was supernaturally attacked. To the point that I am not sure how I am even alive today.
If the deities have the back of such an abusive, controlling, destructive community, they deserve each other.
You see I fear no offenses, no fake divine or demonic force. I leave fear to the fanatics.
I do not care what force is making my life hell for fighting this cult, but I will not be silenced.
I KNOW 100000 % that their giving people krishna and this knowledge does not give them the permission to treat others this way.
To lie, cheat, use, abuse, create an elite hierarchy...
When the time comes, I will try and speak more publicly about them. I have started contacting all the cult related podcasts.
Unlike many here, I once saw this man as my savior and shed many tears for him.
So standing against him has not been as easy as those who load him since childhood.
I do not care if some have been saved by him or have an amazing lala land life in that cult.
I also put aside my sentiments about how much he has helped me or how much my actions will damage them and my ex so called friends.
The old time minions and their immediate families who shamelessly take advanatge of their connections like the british royal family.
I will fight for those who have and are being destoryed. As well as those who took their lives.
I know first hand the courage it takes to end the life of the body by our own hands. The sorrow of those souls has penetrated my being and I cannot believe what kind of pain they may have endured to get there.
I have not much more to add here but hopefully I will have your support when the time comes.
I have nothing to lose. No family, no friends, no material ambitions.
So revealing their fake krishna facade will be one of my missions in this life.
No lawyers, no supernatural attacks... will stop me from protecting potential souls to be used as free labor and lied to.
They can get back at me and try and crush me because last summer the attacks made me send very irrational emails to them.
I will not go into details as noone will understand what happened to me.
and the mental torture I endured. It took me a few months to gain back the control of my psyche.
You know how they say: such and such was offensive and krishna made them go crazy?
Well, it is true. It does happen. But they messed with the wrong person. Because I have way too much knowledge of my psyche and shamanic training to be defeated in this manner. I also have my own divine protection unfortunately for them.
Dawatcher, I doubt he is DEAD. He will never depart this world without his followers giving him the glorification of a demigod and making a huge deal out of it.
You really think they will hide the departure of their false idol?
Dead or alive, this narcissist and few of his disciples will not be able to easily push people to suicide and chronic illness.
They may do it, but it will be a bit harder and bitter.
I hope that you can all keep me in your prayers to whomever the just and true divine forces that are in charge.
After reading all the testimonies in here, I am convinced that this is a righteous battle.
Forgive my long posts. I hope that a few things I have shared in here wil be useful to some.
And please try not to judge me for my not do ordinary views and stories. It is hard enough as it is.


“In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends”.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 12, 2021 10:33PM

My experiences may me very differnt. However for those who have doubts about what I say, somebody has written a book.
As I said t before, we cannot just speak of this path without considering the extraordinary aspect of it.
Why people get so hooked and attached. Otherwise we all pass for a bunch of lunatic, mindless, weaklings who just got brainwashed by a mortal guru.
I think I am the only person who has brought up the mystical side of the process in order to justify how difficult it is to leave.
It is all right if this important fact is not well received by some.
As a turth seeker and researcher, I look at the whole picture
And I cannot ONLY speak of the of the group and butler.
It is an extreme complex dynamics and we must absolutely take it in consideration.
And also the faith Imhad in butler was generated from within via very strong feelings. I did not just blindly accept him.
Thank you.

[www.amazon.ca]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 12, 2021 11:16PM

Please watch this short video on how people are mind controlled into a cult.
I cannot believe I got fooled. Everybody in the world needs to watch this.
[m.youtube.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 13, 2021 02:19AM

Thank you Truth Wins.

First of all, I want to get out of the way that I am in no way negating anyones mystical experiences, for whatever they are worth and have contributed to your life.

The problem with mysticism and the so-called mystical experience is that everyone can claim to have one.

This is problematic for a few reasons:

1. No one else can truly relate or testify to your experience.
2. Nothing about the process is going to systematically result in a similar experience for others. In other words, what exactly were you doing at the time to deserve or produce such an experience? Can others hope to achieve the same? And is there a functional benefit to such an experience? Does it help you with your relationships or make you a better person or answer any of life's big questions?
3. Because there is no way to verify, it's the classic scenario of your word against mine.
4. And finally, what constitutes a mystical experience? What is mystical to you can be very easily explained by science or psychology or any manner of rational explanations. But because there is no agreed-upon definition of what mystical is—beyond an irrational experience happening to you—it can literally be almost anything you consider "mystical".

We alone are responsible for creating divine forces in our lives, no others exist besides the ones we muster up. It's called taking responsibility for our experience. When a buddha character or Jesus character claims they experience some particular "state", we assume they mean a state of mind. At best, we assume the experience happened to their "soul", which is some sort of hidden self that the average person has little to no functional realization or experience of—if you are being honest with YOUR SELF. Its presence is alluded to by playful manipulation of language. We call it consciousness, life force, awareness, brahman, atman, jiva, and so on. But these are mostly playing on words and actually individually are explained variously by assorted philosophies and spiritual traditions. In that sense, all religions are ultimately cults and all spiritual paths that try to dictate what path leads to some summum bonum are simply cults as well. Because they have to use coercive methods to try to override your natural intuition of what makes sense to you. Just as a child is not born believing in any god or guru, these things are mostly, if not exclusively, planted in our minds by those personalities in our life we are socially programmed to believe are superior in intellect or social status, etc.

Putting weight in supernatural or psychotic breaks in our mind usually holds few usable and functional secrets. The mind is first and foremost subject to suggestion and a master of distortion. Many have dissolved their ego (through intense breathwork or meditation or drugs or simply malfunctions in the brain). It usually leaves them fragile beings who can only maintain a sense of sanity or sense of security within the construct of the cult or the specific rituals and mechanisms they used to achieve the so-called mystical state (i.e. chanting every day on repeat or saying some prayer or engaging in some ritual or meditation).

I would argue that the goal of life is to embrace ego and all that it reveals. Lest we succumb to self-delusion and pointless rhetoric. When the krishna god says to surrender to him, he means to flow with that which is already flowing. Even beyond the krishna faith. It's simply a stepping stone to a much larger narrative. If you don't believe that, look where you are now.

I was a pujari for 3 years. Very intimate contact daily with the deity. I had times were I felt deep sentiment and emotion. I had times where I cried in frenzied prayer and I did it all with total focus and love. In such a state there were times I felt the diety engaging with me. A glance, wink, subtle flute song. Something object moved or a food item seemed to shift or even disappear.

Of course, this was all mental projections. I wanted it to be true. Confirmation bias and a mind consumed by fanatical thinking will eventually play tricks and manifest some mental play. Like the person in a concert crowd who is convinced the rock star looked directly at them and winked or waved. Complete self-delusion. Metal/wood/plastic statues don't do a thing. And, it's not like the rest of my life became blessed or better because of it. In fact, there was nothing about the experience that was functionally useful. There is a lot of implication to consider when we start to believe that God will break the laws of physics to somehow interact with us as if we are specifically special in some way. Perhaps the one true thing that manifests from it that is positive is that I can say I witnessed firsthand the effects of religiuos fervor and fanatical sentimentalism hijacking my mind and sense organs. And I have seen this many times. I recall one woman who claimed that the Jaganath deity on the rath cart was telling her to sew some clothes for him. She was in utter tears and blubbering madly. I later found out she was experiencing her kids going off to college and any nuber of major life changes. I could not help but consider that much of that was at play in her emotional outburst and manufactured "mystical' experience. And I would argue that in most cases, if not all, such experiences are exactly there for that reason: To connect us with our deeper emotions and shake us up to make some adjustments and move beyond patterns of thinking that were not working for us.

The mind generates all types of fantasy. It's perhaps not entirely useless, so I take that back, but its function and usefulness are often considered from the cult dynamic. So a dream or vision or seemingly very real experience that is trying to jolt us away from the dependence on the cult, ends up being interpreted only within the context of the cult. This losing it's imprt and meaning. That is why we often will have such experiences but rarely do anything forward-thinking about it. Instead, we chalk it up to "krishna and gurudev want me to do this!".

When you abandon such dependant thinking, these types of experiences will often reveal that we have a rather unhealthy mental dependence on the cult dynamics. We actually give more meaning and clout to these gods and gurus than makes any logical sense for what we actually have gotten in return. Again, to me, the proof is in the pudding. I see no devotees who are in any meaningful way better off than they were 20-40 years ago. If anything they are simply more and more out of touch with reality and life has sailed them by.

I don't feel like you have not addressed the mystical side of the krishna faith. You have and others have chimed in. The problem is that sich experiences don't really reveal any deeper realities about the krishna religion. Nor does the krishna religion ever stipulate that these experieces are unified in their expression and reveald in some very specific way. As i mentioned before, there is no explanation for how the person is revealed their so-called spiritual body. And when we read such a phrase as "revealed spiritual body" from an objective and rational standpoint we are technically speaking about the height of insanity, psychosis and losing all touch with reality. How is it functional to be a 40-year-old male with 2 kids, a wife and a job and experience yourself to be in actuality a 12-year-old gopi girl (or since people don't like that one, maybe a flip flop of Subala Sakha in vraj?), It feels to be like the goal needs to be reassessed because that is what they are selling to the general public. Not some ambigious "love of god" and peace and self-realization. That is absolutely not what they are selling.

So my plea of reason to you, Truth Wins, is not to abandon the fact that your mystical experiences are real, they undoubtedly are. But rather to try to understand their deeper import outside the context of the krishna god, gurus and scriptures. And see if they reveal something deepr about what you should be doing and how these types of mystical revelations are there to reveal specific things to you, about yourself. Not about you in context to made-up gods and gurus that were planted in your brain by a cult.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 13, 2021 02:23AM

In less mystical news:

Just leaving this here. So-called "Vedic culture" at work:

[www.bbc.com]
[www.cnn.com]
[www.hindustantimes.com]
[timesofindia.indiatimes.com]
Same Fanatic saying this: [twitter.com]

And then we have conspiracy nutjob Tulsi Gabbard concerned that the word "women" is somehow vanishing from our daily vocabulary based on an article that actually mentions the words women", as well as "her", "she", "daughter" numerous times. Tell me that these types of tweets by Gabbard don't stink to high heaven as total conspiracy fishing? She's a master at creating BS narratives and division in her constituents and fanatic followers. [twitter.com]

By her own religious dogma, what does it matter if we recognize women or men or what we call them? Are we not all spirit souls—she should be happy that society is dissolving such labels? All of a sudden it's a big deal to seek conversational equality by modifying the language we use to be more inclusive? I don't have an opinion either which way. I don't think we can ever weed out such lingo, so it's a non-concern to me. But apparently, it really rubs Butler and Tulsi the wrong way that some random news outlet used PC lingo in their headline. To her, it's symbolic of some deeply rooted sinister motive. Give me a break.

The hypocrisy and diplomacy in the dealings of Tulsi, her guru, SIF and other senior leaders and followers of Butler and similar Krisha groups is astounding when contrasted with their rhetoric of purity and absoluteness. It confuses followers, creates unnecessary tension and division and paints an odd picture of a cult confused about what it actually stands for. On one hand, they tout the so-called glory of Vedic knowledge and "Hinduism" (as they now clamor to stand behind this label even though not once in the history of western Gaudiya Vaishnavas did they ever refer to themselves as Hindu until somehow it suited their narrative) yet it's difficult to find any true expression of anything glorious about it. As recent as 2021 we have dramatic reports of Dalit caste-based rapes running rampant in India and ass-backward pro-vedic rhetoric of a woman's place being baby-making slaves to their husbands. jai ho!

So much for Aham Brahmasmi.

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