Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 04, 2021 05:55PM

Free labor? Robots can do that. With kitchen policies.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 04, 2021 11:12PM

 When you're talking about the Lord in the heart, DaWatcher, are you referring to the 4 armed blue God who is speculated as somehow sitting in the heart organ? Next to the spirit soul? And when you refer to the scriptures as a method of verification of people's "purity", what specific scriptures are you referring to? Undoubtedly as with all scriptures, you will eventually find some verse justifying why such and such person is a pure devotee. There are many examples in the scripture of abhorrent people who murdered and committed any number of transgressions but are considered pure devotees. I doubt you'll find anything specifically stating that X das and Y dasi in any scriptures or any fantastical lord in the heart.

Have you looked and checked in with your Lord in your heart and your scriptures to see if these people that you are talking about are in fact pure devotees? and even if you received a confirmation bias from one of those sources that they indeed are pure, what difference does it really make in your life? I'm asking seriously. What specific, measurable difference, does it make in your life whether such and such devotee is pure or not? You're still going to have to work on yourself and figure out your problems and try to understand how to get out of your predicaments in life. No pure devotee will ever even remotely solve that for you. And no sing-song mantra will do that either.

Run comrades. The lineage of this cult, no matter how nice and attractive it may sound at face value, is composed of delusional religious fanatics. They may say their ideas are rational or they may quote some verse here and there to support some ideology, but it's all based on one false and unverifiable premise after another. Literally no consistent scriptural support for anything, down to the sikha on their head. [www.forthepleasureoflordkrishna.com] Read these laughable explanations for it . If that does not leave you laughing or mildly embarrassed for the cult you joined, I don't know what will.

The fact is that people like Bhaktivinode and his son were products of their time. They were truth seekers and they certainly were faithful. At the same time, they made a lot of shit up. Created a lot of paranoia and ideology and that is still very deeply influencing the average serious devotee. I can't speak for the Butler camps super diluted dhal version of it all, but I can tell you it's through and through a personality cult based on the belief that some germaphobe white guy living in Kailua in a tin foil-lined beach house is gods representative on planet earth. And not just any god. A blue playboy god who likes 12-year-old girls and steals their clothes and a litany of misogynistic verses and abhorrent practices and ideas that they butter over with a so-called feel-good mumbo jumbo rhetoric of chanting some random mantra that appears in one questionable and very recent scripture. They follow a saint who was a self-proclaimed epileptic and think that he is an incarnation of some made-up blue god and his super recently made up cow-herd girlfriend, Radha.

Always always, RUN.

They conveniently mix and match assorted indian philosophies, scriptures and stamp it all as some "eternal truth" that is over 5000 years old. They throw in jesus and buddha in there for good measure and pretent like it all make sense.

Meanwhile, Butler's political alter ego—[twitter.com] Tulsi Gabbard is getting smashed online as people are seeing through her hate lingo towards minorities like transgender folks and Muslims, masquerading as alohas and namastes.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 05, 2021 12:09AM

Interesting quotes about being "fat" from the swami: https://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Bhaktisiddhanta_Sarasvati_severely_criticized_his_fat_disciples

Ironically, Bhaktivinode was morbidly obese the majority of his life as a Vaishnava. There is a story where Bhalktisiddhanta criticized Bipin Bihari (teacher of Bhaltivinode) for putting his feet on Bhaktivinodes head. He claimed that his father was a nitya siddha and that he was wrong in putting his feet on his father's head.

I find all this stuff amusing as it really is hypocritical and sort of revealing of the deeply rooted daddy issues these core founders of the modern-day guadiya cult have. I mean, think about it, here is a cult that propagates and promotes being lower than a blade of grass and a servant of the servant of Vaishnavas and Bhaktisiddhanta is getting angry at his senior guru for putting his feet on the head of his father and claiming boldly that he is some eternal gopi manjari in the spiritual cow planet goloka. Meanwhile, Bhaktisiddhanta is getting angry at his fat disciples (sorry to say, but a philosophy that promotes eating a bunch of prashad sweets and sitting around chanting all day will make you fat man), while his own father is obese (no wonder the prashadam prayer was written by him!). Never mind the "you're not your body" rhetoric. If gurudev says you're too fat, you're too fat!

So which is it? Is being fat bad for spiritual life? Or is it ok for the Nitya Siddha acharyas who are meant to be an example for the rest of humanity to be fat? Being humble and a servant of the devotees and not criticizing them is important for the rest of us ass-like bhaktas (Bhaktivinode loved writing in his Krishna Samhita about the "ass-like" Vaishnavas—which was basically anyone but the Gaudiya Vaishnava and follower of the Chaitanya saint), but the Guru's can call everyone fatty, get mad at their own guru's and promote the "purity" of their daddy?

Bhaktivinode can preach about humility and tolerance all he wants but when he claims chapter after chapter in his Krishna Samhita that anyone who is not specifically a Gaudiya—Chaitanya—hare—Krishna—chanting Vaishnava is an "ass-like" devotee, I can't see how that jives with being humble or tolerant (let alone making you any friends—except for the ones in your head). You see, the gaudiya cult is not accepting of all other faiths or universal at all. In fact, it largely claims, as per their guru varga, that it's their way or the highway if you ever hope to make any spiritual progress. Read it—it's there plain as day in their writings. Yet the cult's rhetoric ultimately asks us to not question anything and dictates that it's "offensive" and a spiritual crime to point out any flaws in it's logic, scriptures, and gurus. How does that make any sense as far as verifying anything? So we cannot point out that it's odd that the swami and his guru criticize being fat, yet their own acharya, Bhaktivinode, was visibly fat. Not just fat, but ate meat, married twice, had a mistress, dealt in politics, fathered 13 kids and seemed to, for all intents and purposes, escape his mundane responsibilities of life to play spiritual teacher. That's what it looks like from an objective standpoint. And yet, we're to just swallow up and believe that he was a "nitya siddha". He who makes the bold statements must bear the burden of proof (except, conveniently, such things can never be proven in any way at all). Bhaktisiddhanta flaunted that his dad was a nitya siddha even to the degree that he criticizes his father's guru for putting his feet on his head (a common practice in the guru-disciple relationship). Bhaktisiddhanta blasts his followers for being fat, yet his own so-called pure devotee dad was obviously fat. Even as a child I thought it was wild that you would look at the parampara pictures and everyone was thin as a stick, and randomly, Bhaktivinode was all round and buddha-bellied.

The hindu concept of Acharya, is a person who lives by example. Is it against Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine to take care of your body (so-called temple of god)? To stay fit? If we followed in the footsteps of half of these guys we'd be living in tin-foil-lined homes and eating ourselves fat while chanting hare-krishna and pretending that life is just peachy! What to speak of the countless sanyasis that starve themselves and look visibly malnourished.

Both Butler and his Guru were very fond of being critical of their godbrothers (as in there are MANY lectures where they draw on and on about the so-called danger of hearing some other godbrother blabbing about krishna) and other "senior" devotees. Meanwhile, they would promote and bolster the so-called purity of those that it suited them to do so with: Tusta, Katyayani, Bhalakilya, Acharaya das, Tulsi Gabbard, Wailnana etc...

Run comrades. The lineage of this cult, no matter how nice and attractive it may sound at face value, is composed of delusional religious fanatics ultimately bolstering their egos. They may say their ideas are rational or they may quote some verse here and there to support some ideology, but it's all based on one false and unverifiable premise after another. Literally no consistent scriptural support for anything, down to the sikha on their head. Read these laughable explanations for it: http://www.forthepleasureoflordkrishna.com/2014/09/19/why-do-devotees-keep-a-shikha/. If that does not leave you laughing or mildly embarrassed for the cult you joined, I don't know what will.

The fact is that people like Bhaktivinode and his son were products of their time. They were truth seekers and they certainly were faithful (fanatical). At the same time, they made a lot of shit up, covered up a lot, and were, for lack of better words, only human. They were not some "eternal associates" of cowboy krishna. They created a lot of paranoia and dogma and that is still very deeply influencing the average serious devotee. I can't speak for the Butler camps super diluted dhal version of it all, but I can tell you it's through and through a personality cult based on the belief that some germaphobe white guy living in Kailua in a tin foil-lined beach house is gods representative on planet earth. And not just any god. A blue playboy god who likes 12-year-old girls and steals their clothes and a litany of misogynistic verses and abhorrent practices and ideas that they butter over with a so-called feel-good mumbo jumbo rhetoric of chanting some random mantra that appears in one questionable and very recent scripture. They follow a saint who was a self-proclaimed epileptic and think that he is an incarnation of some made-up blue god and his super recently made up cow-herd girlfriend, Radha (no older than 1500 years old as far as any legitimate mentions of her, let alone a superior role in the vaishnava pantheon). Her lore is largely made up by Jayadev and Nimbarka and appears in erotic and pastoral poetry of medieval times. It actually appears in such words exactly at around the same time as many such works started to pop up in assorted scriptures as part of artistic movements and devotional sects both Islamic and hindu as well as Buddhist and Christian. Nevermind the fact that such erotic poetry and neo-spiritual eroticism was already explored in greek and roman works and had visibly cross-pollinated into India and back a million fold by then.

They conveniently mix and match assorted indian philosophies, scriptures and stamp it all as some singular "eternal truth" that is over 5000 years old. They throw in Jesus and buddha in there for good measure and pretend like it all make sense and belongs together. Find me a Christian who agrees. Butler devotees adopted Jesus into their pantheon because it made for an easy sell when they preach their mumbo jumbo. Just like ISKCON devotees would dress as Buddhist monks to collect alms in the streets of southeast Asian countries. Basically, they will do anything (by hook or by crook as the swami loved saying) to try to appeal to anybody. As DeWatcher has pointed out many times the underhanded methods they use to appeal to new recruits: Yoga, vege cooking, yoga-nidra, jesus, mantra/kirtan retreats and much more. You in fact will not hear about the true message of their religion (to realize your true form as a 12-year-old gopi girl servant of the erotic playboy god and his girlfriend) till much much later once they have their hooks in you with all the other ideas. They real you in and create a tight cocoon and web of ideas, half-truths, rituals and beliefs and paint a picture of peace love and happiness that is near impossible to extricate yourself from at a certain point. Your mind gets so scrambled you can barely hold a rational conversation with anyone or even be friends with anyone other than people in the group. And that is ultimately the goal. To create a bubble and insulated culture of a bunch of people who believe in one single idea and truth, against all odds. To question it is blasphemy, to point out blunt flaws and problems is taboo and everything is swept under the rug of "chant-and-be-happy pleasantries (when we all know it's not that simple), until it starts to fester and show its ugly side, once again. In most cases, by then, leaving thousands of followers confused, paranoid, stressed, anxious, and the opposite of what it claimed to be offering them. No wonder when all is said and done the average devotee will want to shut themselves in a bhajan kutir and chant themsleves to oblivion...

I recently listened to a snippete of a lecture by one sanyassi (where he draws on about Kurma avatar—the giant turtle form of vishnu) I used to follow who was going on and on about this world being a perverted reflection of what's going on in the ever-ellusive fantasy land of cow-planet goloka. He was saying that in this world our relationship with our kids is perverted, our relationships with our spouses and friends is perverted and on and on. I'd venture to say that the sanyassis very views on what's perverted is what's really perverted. I mean lets face it. Here we have a 60 year old guy who has been forcfully shaving his head and leaving a tuft of hair on the back of his head for the better part pf his life. He has been dressing in pink robes of medieval indian monks, accepting money and service in the form of massages, food, laundry and all manner of pleasantries from his female and make disciples and living the most unnatural life a human being can live and somehow everyone else is perverted in their relationships??? Holy cow... never mind butler's perverted lifestyle and what many of his close followers have reported going on behind closed doors.

Haribol—or horrible—and remember, RUN!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 05, 2021 12:34PM

Run forest run is there even more garbage that we are not aware of?
Peverted lifesyle? What more goes on behind the butler doors that we have not discussed in here.
Perverted can have a few meanings.
It is truly time for EVERYTHING to be revealed.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 05, 2021 06:28PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  When you're talking about the Lord in the heart,
> DaWatcher, are you referring to the 4 armed blue
> God who is speculated as somehow sitting in the
> heart organ?

Personally or as a former member of SIF?

> Next to the spirit soul? And when you
> refer to the scriptures as a method of
> verification of people's "purity", what specific
> scriptures are you referring to?

Staying only within the Vaishnava scriptures - for example "Nectar of Instruction". I think it's enough.

Quote

Text One: A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

Quote

Text Two: One’s devotional service is spoiled when he becomes too entangled in the following six activities: (1) eating more than necessary or collecting more funds than required; (2) over-endeavoring for mundane things that are very difficult to obtain; (3) talking unnecessarily about mundane subject matters; (4) practicing the scriptural rules and regulations only for the sake of following them and not for the sake of spiritual advancement, or rejecting the rules and regulations of the scriptures and working independently or whimsically; (5) associating with worldly-minded persons who are not interested in Krsna consciousness; and (6) being greedy for mundane achievements.

Politics?

[vedabase.io]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2021 06:32PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 05, 2021 06:30PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you looked and checked in with your Lord in
> your heart and your scriptures to see if these
> people that you are talking about are in fact pure
> devotees? and even if you received a confirmation
> bias from one of those sources that they indeed
> are pure, what difference does it really make in
> your life? I'm asking seriously. What specific,
> measurable difference, does it make in your life
> whether such and such devotee is pure or not?
> You're still going to have to work on yourself and
> figure out your problems and try to understand how
> to get out of your predicaments in life. No pure
> devotee will ever even remotely solve that for
> you. And no sing-song mantra will do that either.

This question is not for me since I questioned the concept of "being pure" in the Forum.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 05, 2021 10:50PM

What is a mind game in the group is the polarity of it.
Butler is half Moses half Pharaoh.
On one side he helps people to some extent spiritually and on the other side he treats them like slaves.
Slaves that built an empire for him.
Fear, control are mixed with kindness,love...
The typical narcissistic dynamics which keeps people in an emotional prison until they realize what is going on.
I feel as though the people who are in this forum have different experiences with the deities and the process.
We are not always on the same page.
I personally have benefited a lot from the practices.
Maybe behind the scenes he is a totally different persona, but many of his lectures were helpful to me.
As he says it himself, guru is heard not seen. How convenient.
It feels as though Butler was kind of like wearing braces for a while and then you don’t need braces anymore.
He is a teacher I needed at the time but now it feels as though it was kindergarten.
I can hardly have a conversation with any of those people.
When you speak to them you know that the answer will be generic:
it is your karma, you have to surrender more, you have to chant more, it is Maya.
It is almost like speaking to an AI over the phone.
People are in an illusion to think that any scripture will give you the whole truth.
The truth is in fact stranger than fiction and it is a giant puzzle.
There are many paths and many healing modalities available to humans on this planet.
To stick to just one, equals limiting our ability to distinguish what works for us.
I believe that each soul is on their own journey.
And those who hold on to gurus like Butler, are still at the stage of dependency and infancy.
They need the security of having a middleman, a specific path and a specific deity.
There are days where I still miss that sense of security of having a group and following a certain path.
And the illusion that I have reached my destination.
As I have embarked on the individual path, I’ve come across invisible teachers who make a butler look like a puppy.
Spritual Growth is never easy and we are faced with many initiations and challenges.
There is nothing more rewarding than a custom made path that is conducive to us and not one that is pre-fabricated.
The dynamics that butler has created is pretty close to Secret societies.
When you first enter, they keep so many secrets from you. And everybody is working on a secret project.
you will be given more and more entrance into that secret society as you prove yourself to be serious.
For example they hide for the longest time that Wailana is the wife.
I remember the first time that I was involved in a secret project I felt as though I was given the whole world.
I was finally an insider.
And of course there is also the elite system. Where some are treated like royalty and others like dirt.
I still believe that Butler is not just evil and there are some positive aspects to the group. (please don’t shoot me for saying this)!
Not everybody is ready to run. They’re not even ready to crawl.
If people want to escape becoming direct servants and slaves for him on site, they should get a tattoo every few years. Or have hepatitis.
I feel it is very important not to put everybody in the same basket.
I have lived with some disciples that were absolutely wonderful. I had a completely different experience with them and felt very safe.
For some reason, some are able not to get to fanatical and they’re also able not to make you live in fear.
I think that somewhere in my heart, I will always have appreciation for the Moses side of Butler.
However as a person who has always been very intuitive, I do not appreciate being cheated. And I do not appreciate the suffering that was imposed upon me and other people.
Few years ago somebody wanted to make me believe that my mom’s small diamond pendant was zirconim and offer me $200 while it was worth more than $2000.
These people brainwashed me that Butler was a pure representative of God and then lied about his relationship with his own guru.
That he was the golden child and the chosen one. If I had known about all these lies, I would have RUN FOREST RUN!
They have cheated thousands of people and I will not cease to expose them.
It is one thing to cheat a person materially but it is another thing to play with their soul and lives.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 06, 2021 01:51AM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is a mind game in the group is the polarity
> of it.
> Butler is half Moses half Pharaoh.

Slaves Hebrews born to serve,
to the pharaoh
Heed To his every word,
live in fear
Faith Of the unknown one,
the deliverer
Wait Something must be done,
four hundred years


Metallica!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: October 06, 2021 02:03AM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it is your karma, you have to surrender more, you
> have to chant more, it is Maya.

Surrender more? Can't surrender more. According to the teachings, it is not a question of own will (if we stay only within the teachings...).

And so on...

One can "surrender" to the whims of leaders ...

> For example they hide for the longest time that Wailana is the wife.

"Siddha is the son" much longer...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2021 02:06AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: October 06, 2021 09:12PM

What is chastisement in reality in the SOI=
GLORIFIED ABUSE

Please do not underestimate the damage they are creating on a soul level.

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