Thank you for your honesty Truth Wins.I believe you, that your experiences are real and I also had profound and very personal experiences in another cult, but I know how confusing it feels to make sense of the wonderful experiences and the falsity of the cult at the same time. From Butler's story, that is also described on your link and on 'meanwhile in hawaii' it seems, that Butler already had his own cult before he met Bhaktivedanta and then highjacked this theology for his own purposes. The chanting of mantras and offering food for the Lord, feeling the deep connection with the deity, are indeed overly profound experiences (I had too in ISCKON) but this is one sugar piece Bhaktivedanta gave his followers to control them. As I said before, he uses 0,1% of Hindu philosophy to raise himself as the biggest authority when it comes to the relationship with God and Butler saw that this works, so he just adapted it. I think Butler is a very megalomaniac and narcissistic personality who really sees himself as a holy figure in this world and he knows what's better for everyone so he can be completely in control. Once I talked to a Butler follower about genuine teachers, and he told me, that we are immature and small in our understanding of spiritual life, because of our minds being impure. And sometimes the teacher (Butler) can say very insulting and rude things but we don't understand that with this, he wants to teach us. He always wants the best, even when he is rude, because he only knows what each of us needs to climb the ladder of spiritual progress. I just answered that this sounds like brainwashing to me, and that it sounds like a perfect recepy to have 100 % control over people, to claim things like that. He did not agree with me, of course. To come to the point: your meeting with the cult made profound experiences happen for you, but it has nothing to do with the cult. Every nice thing they will use to manipulate you that they (the teacher and the people) are sooo damn advanced, and every shitty thing they will use to keep you down and feel bad about yourself. It is a hard cycle to get out when you have no self confidence. I admire you for being so strong Truth Wins.I am sure you will make your own way!

Thank you Forzen Nick. I appreciate that you believe me and that you have appreciation for my honesty.
My experiences go beyond the sweet connections with the deities. It is on the level that most people think it was psychosis. But I know that all that I have experienced is real and do not need validation.
I may be one of the only people who faced the cult directly and told them everything I reveal here to their faces.
I no longer trust any spiritual path and deities completely. We must just extract what serves us and reject what does not.
But if I have to relate to Krishna, I do it in the moof of Arjuna. One who is a warrior and stands next to him to fight the injustice.
I am not in the mood of Chaitanya. Flat on my face like a pancake. Feeling lower than the straw on the street. The straw that is a doormat and butler’s slave.
It took me years to heal myself from decades of abuse both from the cult and my own so called family. I am still rebuilding myself.
I have been through hell way too many times to fear it now. But the butler devotees are very afraid of hell. They just want to swim in the nectarian crack.
Do not try to reason with the butler maniacs. The hypnosis goes very deep. I have been there and know how it works.
Those guys are a lost cause. But are happy in their fake Dark City illusion world.
The focus here is to help new souls not to get trapped snd to also finally expose the filth that has been hidden.
Butler’s secrets are as disgusting as the parasite cleanses he imposes on his followers. It has now come onto the surface.
Bhaktivedanta did not have the power to give people the nectar and mystical experiences. This comes from the deities themselves.
And noone truly knows what powers they have. And maybe it is best they never find out. It is not easy to imagine what and who is behind the supernatural phenomenon.
What the devotee told you is nauseating to me. It is what I am fighting for.
To make abuse pass for mercy.
Thanks for your contribution and for keeping this important conversation alive.
I have learned that we cannot wait for god to strike the ennemy with thunder and for jesus to descend from the skies. That karma wil take care of this and that. We must act on behalf of the just forces of the universe.
I have compassion for he butler followers. I have been there.
But their half divine half demonic FALSE idol must step down form his high chair.
He has falsly claimed he is the 33 rd Acarya in disciplic succession. That is not a very light pill to swallow. It is not a JOKE. It is the greatest blasphemy.
Sitting on the seat of Vyasa is not a store bought sofa. It has a very deep meaning.
The Iskcon wolves and butler have polluted the seat of Vyasa.
Can you imagine butler putting his narcissistic behind on that chair for 40 years and use that filthy language to trash the homosexuals.
To have absolutely stupid parents let small kids listen to that trash.
He did not have to get so graphic about it. And he did not have to be so horrible to souls who have those tendencies.
His words are seen as coming directly from the mouth of god.
People this crap is very serious. This demented man is supposed to be god’s speaker on earth.
The sad thing is that he does not even have the backbone to stand by his hatred for the homosexuals. He had to finally surrender and tell Tulsi to let them win the battle of gay marriage.
Oh chris. You are so pathetic dude. If you only knew what kind of demons is working through you. A few exorcism sessions are needed my friend.
This guy wants to teach people how to conquer Maya. Give me a break please! Go back to your kundalini yoga, LSD and surf board! If we are lucky enough a shark will take care of him.
It is not important if we believe or respect the path. If it is mythology or truth.
Some more evolved beings have written those scriptures, and brought the process to the planet. I am not sure about their agenda.
But I want to believe they do not appreciate the imposers who have been trashing their reputation both in Iskcon and SoI.
If some have never been shown the transcendental side of this path, does not mean that it is all a fantasy.
I have been shown enough to know that it is not man made.
I do not consider myself a devotee and have no desire to bow down. But I do feel sorry for what has been done to the path.
Forgiveness is overrated in my opinion. Doing the right and courageous thing is underrated.
I just know that I cannot watch others suffer in the hands of false prophets.
I take it in my own hands to stand up for those lost souls. I use my own divine spark.
I myself waited many times for the cosmic beings (such as Nrshimhadeva) to save me until I learned that I had to do it myself.

Just wanted to make it clear that by taking justice in my own hands, I meant exposing them even more outside of this forum.
Nothing extreme!
Also it is still a mystery to me how some so called divine forces allow such horrible things to happen.
The priests abusing kids, the abuse in the Krishna community, the fanaticism in islam....
I just know that a good teacher can create an atmosphere of love and respect devoid of fear. No matter what path and what religion.
I do not have an extreme affection for any of these paths or deities.
However if one poses as the representative of god (whoever that entity may be), they must take that responsibility very seriously.
This is why I insist on the fact that butler has shamed his disciplic succession.
Not that I paticulary want to defend Krishna consciousness.
I know they do not need my protection and defense. They have the means to create any situation they desire.
What is imoprtant to me is my own values and what feels right in my heart.
And bringing the lies of butler and his minions onto the surface is a mission that feels very important.
Tulsi’s lies and hypocrisy was just the last drop. Enough with the god damn fake facades.
They got away too easily before the internet war against them.
Now they must face their shame. They will never forget me that is for sure.
Midget, Tibby, Bellord.... will always be butler’s janitors and keepers of his dirty secrets. They are his partner in crimes.
No matter how many people bow down to them, they are nothing but puppets.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Never mind the fact that in healthy human
> relationships the goal is never to control the
> object of one's affection.

In fact, emphasizing the control aspect in a relationship seems unnatural. In practice, however, interpersonal relationships are influencing. Impact in the short term means that someone does what someone else wants, or at least reacts. It is some kind of short-term form of control. In the context of love, it seems genuinely unnatural. On the other hand what at all love is?..

> Ultimately all these ideas are based on a type of
> Romeo and Juliet fascination. They are trying to
> capitalize on the natural biological reality of
> humans always wanting to experience/relive these
> initial moments of new budding love. Definitely, a
> novel concept as far as theism and religions go.

Generally speaking, when it comes to love, parental love is considered purer, in the sense of selflessness. A loving mother devotes all resources to caring for the child. On the other hand, however, there is also the maternal instinct and an attraction to children's sweetness, etc. There is a benefit to the mother here. The topic is interesting because once, as a member of the SIF, I observed a mother taking care of a child at the sandbox during the break between classes at university, and I analyzed this topic.

On the other hand, looking at the so-called love between individuals of two sexes - at least in natural terms - is believed to be closely related to sexual attraction. In practice, there is intellectual fascination, pheromones, warmth and attraction to the opposite sex. On the other hand, something is omitted that, at least in Poland, was once present, i.e. the so-called "white marriages" and therefore sexually unconsumed. The spouses were simply satisfied with each other, etc. Doctors confirmed the lack of consumption. So in this sense, however, in the material realm, they were still dealing with something that they call love, and that was not desire.

In turn, one Zen Master was asked about his controversial contacts with women. and he replied that it was not love, and it was not lust.


> The thing is, the ancients toyed with these ideas
> and they are all valid spiritual realizations.
> Take achitya bedha bedha, which was not first
> posited by Chaitanya BTW. It spells out the notion
> that we are one/nondifferent from
> brahman/existence/awareness/consciousness/krishna,
> yet, we are also qualitatively different. So this
> becomes a shakti argument. And Shaktism is a valid
> school of Indian philosophy. Everything has an
> energy and potency of sorts. Advaita believes
> there is no distinction between it all and the
> perception of difference is an illusion and false.
> Dvaita believes there is a vivid distinction
> between us and the Source. This can be brahman or
> a made-up god that is a stand-in for Brahman or a
> universal reality/substrate/consciousness. These
> are all ideas and valid in assorted ways.

Regardless of Indology, the topic is important, momentous. Perception takes place and it seems, at least by looking around, that there is some form of duplication of it. Human and other beings have quite similar sense organs on this planet. Eyes, ears, nose. With some accuracy, because other wavelengths of light are perceived by, for example, bees or wasps, etc.

The aspect of information theory in the context of consciousness, and more precisely - intelligence, is also important. Considering the theory of information and entropy in its approach in the context of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that in closed systems entropy does not decrease, the principle of information growth regularly occurs when a conscious being perceiving dependencies makes a conclusion that creates this information, or by acting on the reality introduces this information into the structure, e.g. by building a car.

This in the context of transdendence is quite important, because upon death, theoretically the body disintegrates, but what happens to the information stored in the brain? The topic was so original that it prompted scientists to attack the theory of black holes and created such hypothetical creations as gravastars.

Thus the Vedanta cannot be denied that the subject is taken seriously.

> DeWatcher, you say tomato, I say tomato. You get
> the idea. I understand that there is nuanced
> specifics about the different radha-bhakti
> Sampradayas etc. Everyone claims their unique
> approach to one-up the last guy. It's a spiritual
> pissing contest to me. I'm not sure what you mean
> by "Nobody said that the spiritual body
> corresponds to the nature of the feelings
> manifested in the relationship with God.",

I mean "Nobody in SIF told that".

> NDE/OBE ad other disturbances of time perception
> have been shown to be directly related to brain
> and neural activity disturbances. There is nothing
> spiritual about it. During anesthetized surgery or
> comas, many people report seeing themselves or
> feeling people enter the room. These have been
> shown to be based on primitive centers of the
> brain that allow us to have a sense of location in
> relation to space, forms and sounds. It's how we
> perceive that there is someone looking at us or
> that we are being followed or that there is a
> presence in the room. It's an orientation
> mechanism of the brain that is part of how we
> evolved for protecting ourselves. When our
> consciousness is subdued do to coma or near death,
> these very primitive responses are the last to go.
> There are many studies on this. Not to mention
> your personal OBE and other consciousness
> disruptions are not proof of krishna, gopi bhava
> or anything really. They are simply highly
> subjective personal experiences that have possible
> merit and value only to you, and no one else. I'm
> not sure what you are mentioning them for.

These kinds of experiences are personal, subjective. Of course, the researcher tries to compare them with the available scientific material or the experiences of others. In the context of Vaishnava philosophy, I commented on it as a paradox that these experiences arose in the course of practice. For me, philosophy is lofty, interesting, it may have its drawbacks. The problem is for those who use it to steal from or destroy individuals.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When butler decided to create a more godly society
> with his secret weapon: Tulsi Gabbard, he did not
> know he would shoot himself in the foot.

I have emphasized here the inconsistencies of this "Tulsi Gabbard" legend, its founding myths and other legends. About the fact that if the next marriage is to be on the "vanaprastha" level, why is a grand ceremony organized? Full of glitz. Dedicating science for political purposes? Later, the question is why abortion and subsidies from and for Planned Parenthood are accepted for political purposes of political affiliation, since relativization is heavily attacked in Srimad Bhagavatam in the context of e.g. meat eating. Then a question about the consistency of a message such as "America will not be a gendarme" when the founding myth of the heroic candidate for the US president is a soldier from Iraq, where there were about 1.6 million victims of this war. And so on...

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Midget, Tibby, Bellord.... will always be butler’s
> janitors and keepers of his dirty secrets. They
> are his partner in crimes.

Often it is "Butler this", "Butler that". I have not seen him with vivid eyes. In Poland, people wondered why there have been no lectures for a long time? Or maybe this Butler has been dead for a long time? And a scene with a double is played. And next to it, there are many sweet pictures with Our Lady of China and Hawaii - Wai Lana. Meals by the sea, flowers on the head. Spiritual virginity? Not very authentic for a divorcee. A non-working Midget who was a coast guard and knew dolphins. World famous teacher but they don't know him ... All these legends seem false.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:09AM by DaWatcher.

Or another paradox. Initiated vs uninitiated. I already wrote about it, but another example. One woman. Always with the homeless. Giving them food, giving them Gauranga mantra, kirtans. Peak empathy. 25 or 30 years of faithful service. Uninitiated. And what? Some Midget or former leader arranged for her to approach the guru? Nope. Sanyasis would call something like this a scandal. But who cares. She devoted her life to service, homeless etc ... Who cares.

Well, SIF must be a sect ... In a normal sanga something like this would be impossible.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:45AM by DaWatcher.

[.]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 02:37AM by DaWatcher.

I have been part of this forum and community for a few months now.
I am asking you all to receive what I am saying with an open mind, compassion and a very open heart.
I know that it is not easy to enter my reality without judging my lucidity. However I can assure you that unfortunately I do not make things up.
If you ever read my post on “the mystical forces that led me to to K...”, you will learn about my story and how I was led to this covert cult.
I am not sure whatsoever how this whole thing operates, but somehow or other, some forces have the back of butler and his group.
Is it the deities themselves (greedy for love and worship) or some other dark forces?
I have been under severe attacks since I left and even more severe attacks since I started posting here.
I will not get into the details of what happened to me last summer but let us say it got very ugly.
I entered at war with them directly via email and at the same time I was supernaturally attacked. To the point that I am not sure how I am even alive today.
If the deities have the back of such an abusive, controlling, destructive community, they deserve each other.
You see I fear no offenses, no fake divine or demonic force. I leave fear to the fanatics.
I do not care what force is making my life hell for fighting this cult, but I will not be silenced.
I KNOW 100000 % that their giving people krishna and this knowledge does not give them the permission to treat others this way.
To lie, cheat, use, abuse, create an elite hierarchy...
When the time comes, I will try and speak more publicly about them. I have started contacting all the cult related podcasts.
Unlike many here, I once saw this man as my savior and shed many tears for him.
So standing against him has not been as easy as those who load him since childhood.
I do not care if some have been saved by him or have an amazing lala land life in that cult.
I also put aside my sentiments about how much he has helped me or how much my actions will damage them and my ex so called friends.
The old time minions and their immediate families who shamelessly take advanatge of their connections like the british royal family.
I will fight for those who have and are being destoryed. As well as those who took their lives.
I know first hand the courage it takes to end the life of the body by our own hands. The sorrow of those souls has penetrated my being and I cannot believe what kind of pain they may have endured to get there.
I have not much more to add here but hopefully I will have your support when the time comes.
I have nothing to lose. No family, no friends, no material ambitions.
So revealing their fake krishna facade will be one of my missions in this life.
No lawyers, no supernatural attacks... will stop me from protecting potential souls to be used as free labor and lied to.
They can get back at me and try and crush me because last summer the attacks made me send very irrational emails to them.
I will not go into details as noone will understand what happened to me.
and the mental torture I endured. It took me a few months to gain back the control of my psyche.
You know how they say: such and such was offensive and krishna made them go crazy?
Well, it is true. It does happen. But they messed with the wrong person. Because I have way too much knowledge of my psyche and shamanic training to be defeated in this manner. I also have my own divine protection unfortunately for them.
Dawatcher, I doubt he is DEAD. He will never depart this world without his followers giving him the glorification of a demigod and making a huge deal out of it.
You really think they will hide the departure of their false idol?
Dead or alive, this narcissist and few of his disciples will not be able to easily push people to suicide and chronic illness.
They may do it, but it will be a bit harder and bitter.
I hope that you can all keep me in your prayers to whomever the just and true divine forces that are in charge.
After reading all the testimonies in here, I am convinced that this is a righteous battle.
Forgive my long posts. I hope that a few things I have shared in here wil be useful to some.
And please try not to judge me for my not do ordinary views and stories. It is hard enough as it is.


“In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends”.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

My experiences may me very differnt. However for those who have doubts about what I say, somebody has written a book.
As I said t before, we cannot just speak of this path without considering the extraordinary aspect of it.
Why people get so hooked and attached. Otherwise we all pass for a bunch of lunatic, mindless, weaklings who just got brainwashed by a mortal guru.
I think I am the only person who has brought up the mystical side of the process in order to justify how difficult it is to leave.
It is all right if this important fact is not well received by some.
As a turth seeker and researcher, I look at the whole picture
And I cannot ONLY speak of the of the group and butler.
It is an extreme complex dynamics and we must absolutely take it in consideration.
And also the faith Imhad in butler was generated from within via very strong feelings. I did not just blindly accept him.
Thank you.

[www.amazon.ca]

Please watch this short video on how people are mind controlled into a cult.
I cannot believe I got fooled. Everybody in the world needs to watch this.
[m.youtube.com]