IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Their community is riddled with
> divorce, intolerance, judgement and bias. Fear as
> a driving force is indeed a paramount reason for
> any adherance to Butlers whims. His own life
> example is reflective of a man paralysed by fear
> and a need to control.

The recent events in Poland show that the cult mechanisms do not change. Despite the better atmosphere etc.

The case of a woman's suicide in Cracow, Poland was cited here. After 20 years, if there is a signal in the cult in the organization that "this and that person is offensive" there is an immediate process of excluding him from the community. Interestingly, this is not accompanied by Vedic seriousness. Vedic seriousness requires evidence. For example, one of the activists contacts consecutive members and communicates that "this and that person is offensive and not welcome". When asked "how offensive is she and what is the evidence" - silence.

As you can see, there is evidence of the same mechanisms up to 20 years ago, and it doesn't take much effort to bring activists to justice.

You sweeties will deny it, but your ignorance has cost somebody's life. And many health. Eat that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2021 09:07PM by DaWatcher.

Ian, I feel you and I may have had different experiences in general.
I think your journey may have been much worse in general.
I truly did fall in love with the process in general and the Mantras.
My issue has always been the toxic side of the group.
I cannot just expose the ugly stuff without admitting that I also had many happy moments.
I came from a place of suffering and it felt like landing on an Oasis at first.
If I say it was all torture, then it will come from a place of revenge and not honesty.
If I did not love it so much, I would have left much earlier and not put up with the non sense.
I do believe that some are happy and content.
They have solid boundaries, their own family units, some material comfort...
Amongst a few thousand people, there are also extremely decent people.
Some disciples or students run non fanatical, non fear based programs in different cities.
Yes some people are immuned. They are either lucky or they know how to play the game.
They are like bees who only get the nectar! I assure you that I know of such individuals.
It is not always about how sincere you are. It is all about how much you perform, who you know, who you are married too, who your parents are....
I kind of respect those people (not spiritually). I admire their intelligence and boundaries. They should give classes on how not to be humble doormats.
I guess they have good Karma!
I know of some people who have pretty much only seen the good side of the SOI.
Or they go out of their way not to fall into the holes. They are pretty smart.
It is truly not simple to generalize. It is all relative.
Some people in the process are treated like demigods. Respected, worshiped, cared for, no expenses...
If you believe that your guru is god’s representative with 20/20 spiritual vision, what is there to complain about?
You have faith that even if they ask you to jump off a cliff, it is for your own good.
So when your faith is that strong, you will find happiness serving such a person.
As they say it, ignorance is bliss.
I can admit that I too was one of those blind followers. So I totally get it.
I am mostly here to speak of what is far from being spiritual.
I am here to speak about how differently people are treated according to their statues.
I know of the adult son of long time disciples who got away with luring a minor into having sexual relation with him.
Not only they were not banned, they are still around and married shortly after.
As if nothing had happened.
If you have no disciples parents to back you up and do what he did, you will be banned for the rest of your life.
I am not blaming people for making mistakes. I am far from being perfect.
I just cannot accept that people are not treated equally in a spiritual community.
In a community that is supposed to follow the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and look down on materialists?
What is this if not the most disturbing materialistic mentality?
We need to talk about the fear, guilt trips, callous behavior amongst “devotees”.
The micromanagement. The secrecy.
I remember a lecture where 2 female disciples had writte to the guru explaining that they were on the verge of suicide.
Why? Because they were given so much more than they could possibly manage.
Seriously? Why should people even get to that point.
All that is not NORMAL. And I am tired of putting it under the rug.
Those people must break free from their own spell and see the rotten sides of their group.
Stop pointing the finger at Iskcon! And pretend that SOI is the clean offshoot.
I know that some from the group have the “tough” job of reading these posts.
Ask yourself a question:
Why should you even be mentioned in this forum for decades?

Any nonsense can be "spiritual". It's called cognitive dissonance. Religions and cults are expert at justifying the most bizarre ideas and stamping them as "gods will" or "karma" or anything else that obsolves them of responsibility it the need to give a just answer. That's why surrender as a religious concept is so ripe for abuse. A drug smuggler giving millions to his guru has purified the act. A devotee working like nuts to please thier guru while abandoning thier kids is pure devotional service. Spending an inordinate amount of time and energy ranting against homosexuality and having your brain dead followers cover your home in tin foil walls is "seva".

But yes, ignorance can be bliss, for sure.

Truth wins Wrote:
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> In a community that is supposed to follow the
> ABSOLUTE TRUTH and look down on materialists?

This problem has also been identified. This type of approach does not appeal to former members or satellites. Because it turned out that the environment has higher moral standards or empathy than cult activists ...


> Why should you even be mentioned in this forum for
> decades?

No apologies? Constant denial?

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A drug smuggler giving millions to his guru
> has purified the act.

The process of purification did not guarantee the donor freedom from his 12-year imprisonment ... Something is not working here ..

But here too there are humorous-absurd phenomena. For example, on the facebook profile before the Mr. Midget posts with quotes from various authorities.

So the Scottish whiskey distiller was cited, the poet writer related to a young girl was quoted, which had signs of pedophilia. These are the authorities ... Or maybe it is this energetic that attracts and it is like self-admission. Alcoholism, pedophilia ...

Yes Ian I agree with you. This is why critical thinking is so important.
It is only when we put aside the fear that we are able to look at a situation with objectivity.
The practice of Bhakti often makes one vulnerable as we become more trusting, open hearted, humble, docile, tolerant....
Some of us are now on the outside looking in.
I know that when you are inside, your vision is very clouded and you keep ignoring the red flags.
Trauma bonding is strong!
I think that the fear program is still registered somewhere in my emotional body even after all these years.
When something bad happens to me I would have a tendency to think I have been offensive.
The irony is that Mayadevi is the scapegoat and usual suspect.
Whenever you see the reality for what it is, it is Maya, your mind....
If you get rightfully angry about a nasty situation, it is Maya, if you doub,it is Maya....
The one who is seeing and recognizing non sense is considered to be influenced by
Maya and their offensive mind.
Instead of honoring the inner voice, we often shut it and ask forgiveness for our offences.
We all have a divine and direct connection.
What the SOI dynamics does is to weaken that direct connection.
Even if they seemingly encourage that personal connection.
Maybe it is not done on purpose and they don’t realize what they are doing.
However you are encouraged to always ask someone else what to do and what to think.
After a while we get lazy and let others decide for our lives.
We think that such and such so called advanced devotee knows better.
That they have vision and I am semi blind.
It is all a deep dependency mechanism.
I still “believe” that lots of it is done on an unconscious level.
We just fall into it and become mindless robots.
I am just sharing my journey and observations in the hopes that it will make a small difference.

DaWatcher, I don’t think that one can just blame the “Guru” or other devotees.
Adults are responsible for their actions and decisions.
I don’t know if anybody could force the disciple to smuggle Cannabis (illegal back then).
I recognize that I was exteremely weak and more unstable when I was in the group.
As I said it before, I will always also remember the positive experiences, the good friends and teachers.
I feel that they cannot even really see the dysfunctions.
I know this because I have been there myself.
It takes an extremely solid psyche to roam religious groups without getting damaged.
I am hoping for positive changes. There are many sincere and kind souls who are on that path.
I guess I have shared my personal “negative” experiences and there is not much more I can add.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The practice of Bhakti often makes one vulnerable
> as we become more trusting, open hearted, humble,
> docile, tolerant....

But in the same time, tradition requires seriousness in verification. Hence the allegation of sectarian behavior - an activist with a specific position in the hierarchy (formerly formal, later informal, since "there are no centers") communicates that this and that person is offensive. It should be avoided. But what did she do? What evidence? Such inquisitiveness is Vedic seriousness. Silence in response. And earlier the narrative toward the "warned" person that "I want you to come closer to God". A moment later, "no interest to make him come closer to God" any more. It's just manipulation.

Cheap shit Sweeties.

> Some of us are now on the outside looking in.
> I know that when you are inside, your vision is
> very clouded and you keep ignoring the red flags.

In fact, at one point, while reading the Vedic scriptures very intensively, I once listened to a lecture on the retreate of one of the "masters" in SIF, I realized that my reading is deeper and their mind is blocked.

> Maybe it is not done on purpose and they don’t
> realize what they are doing.

Mechanisms of party, sect, MLM, drug wedges etc.

> After a while we get lazy and let others decide
> for our lives.

In Poland there were people for whom strong leaders have become a comfortable foundation for their spiritual life. They didn't have to think. When such and such a leader counted the soil, it was a source of anxiety. This is an unnatural situation. There is no one to listed to...


> I still “believe” that lots of it is done on an
> unconscious level.
> We just fall into it and become mindless robots.

This is either suspect or is evidence of mental bondage and lack of spiritual vision. If you say "robots can do that" on the one hand and read "kitchen policies" three times a week on the other hand, it becomes suspicious.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adults are responsible for their actions and
> decisions.

But the idea itself is attractive and compelling. People were drawn to the idea of love for God. But they face a system of recruitment and imposed control. Regardless of their level of purification or implementation. The Vedic comparison that warns is "a viper with a jewel on its head". The gem is beautiful, it captivates, but the viper is poisonous. The group that protects the drug dealer and at the same time teaches philosophy higher is such a viper.

> As I said it before, I will always also remember
> the positive experiences, the good friends and
> teachers.

For sure there are many nice people with empathy, intelect and so on. Lot's of charity actions, feeding homeless people, visiting orphanages etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2021 05:34AM by DaWatcher.

The subject of suicide within the group is a complex one. I think that in general, those who are stuck in a “depression” zone cannot talk about it freely.
And of course suicide is the ultimate sin according to all religions.
No one wants to hang out with the “depressed”.
Being happy and blissed out is a sign you are doing well spiritually (according to them).
There is always a solution. Why are you depressed?
You are not surrendered enough, you don’t serve enough, you don’t chant enough, you have been offensive...
They will throw something philosophical at you rather than have compassion.
They will tell you if you suffer it is just your karma.
The answers are usually very predictable, robotic and not so original.
If you complain about how you feel, you will be labeled self centered. Ennemy of Krishna and Gurudeva. Taking people’s attention away from their 24/7 projects.
How dare you have devotees focus on you instead of Krishna!
Of course there is the 0.00001 percent who are truly amazing and full of compassion.
I guess those who feel suicidal must suffer in silence and never dare reaching out for help.
Some may have been pushed to feeling suicidal because of the pressure. Maybe they were given more than they could handle.
When my material life got very heavy and I no longer was active in the group, I felt as though I was already dead to them.
This was the moment I realized that these people are not my family and that their friendship and care is very conditional.
I truly believe that it is all done out of ignorance and spiritual immaturity.
I don’t think they do it out of malice.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one wants to hang out with the “depressed”.
> Being happy and blissed out is a sign you are
> doing well spiritually (according to them).
> There is always a solution. Why are you
> depressed?
> You are not surrendered enough, you don’t serve
> enough, you don’t chant enough, you have been
> offensive...
> They will throw something philosophical at you
> rather than have compassion.

But in this context, there were also other forms of narration, such as "spiritual life is not a road strewn with rose petals", etc. which shows that this is just a technique to maintain group cohesion and a false positive image.


> If you complain about how you feel, you will be
> labeled self centered. Ennemy of Krishna and
> Gurudeva. Taking people’s attention away from
> their 24/7 projects.

Gurudeva whom they had never personally seen with their eyes and, contrary to the instructions of the Bhagavad Gita, they did not ask questions first.

The Bhagavad Gita instructs: approach the Gurudeva - a self-realized person, ask humble questions and serve with devotion.

The cult instructs: do not approach Gurudev (he has more important matters), serve with devotion and do not ask questions.


> When my material life got very heavy and I no
> longer was active in the group, I felt as though I
> was already dead to them.

A friend in need is a friend indeed. Although my observations and experiences showed how I wrote - real devotees friends are not cult puppets. Their friendship was natural and not derived from instruction, education, or a cult atmosphere. Just nice people.

> This was the moment I realized that these people
> are not my family and that their friendship and
> care is very conditional.

True

> I truly believe that it is all done out of
> ignorance and spiritual immaturity.
> I don’t think they do it out of malice.

There were signs of malice. Example - jealousy between women. Generally speaking, the group knows that the Vedas recommend marriage for the Kali Yuga period. After all, they are said to be teaching Vedic wisdom. However, the narrative in the cult in the 90's was that whoever marries will be less involved in the cult for 3 years. Which had its consequences (e.g. single female devotees living alone outside the city could be seen as prostitutes).

And now let's say one of the single women is getting married to one of the devotees. She had no fire-offering. I heard a story like another woman, an activist maliciously accused her of not really being the wife of this devotee because there was no fire offering. Forgetting the Vedic teaching that if a woman lives with a man for more than one year, she is to be considered his wife or becomes his wife.

As you can see, the approach to the Vedas is very bizarre ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2021 02:49AM by DaWatcher.

I have been gradually reading the posts starting from page 720. Going back to 2004.
I must say that it is not easy to digest even though I have no doubts that they are not lying. I trust that this was their experience.
I can relate to Zelig’s open letter that starts with all the positives and Thank you. As I said it before I too have some very amazing memories.
I want to make it clear that when I was seriously following the path, I had full faith in the spiritual teacher.
This strong faith (even if I feel now was not justified)did help me.
I will forever be grateful for the patience and kindness the “devotees” have shown me.
I know that I was just another annoying patient at the mental hospital.
And as some other people said it, it is not all black and white.
I used to always have a very causal relation with “God” before entering this group.
I see now that the Krishna that we “served” is a distorted version of the real deal. I will never forgive how you installed the fear of God in me with that incessant obsession with offenses.
I always thought I was very fortunate not having been exposed to the Catholic fear and guilt. What do you know? I guess I spoke too fast!
How many times have I heard JG say that fear separates us from God?
For those faithful disciples and students who come here to read the posts, I hope you can acknowledge that you may have it good but many of us did not.
You may have a fear free relation with your Guru and other disciples and students who would never dare looking at you the wrong way.
That you, the senior disciples (Guru’s surfing buddies)are seen as spiritual rockstars (cult of personality disorder).
I wish you could walk in the shoes of the not so well connected devotees for a few months.
Your 100 percent positive experience is not ours. I don’t think all people post here out of deep anger or hatred.
Have you ever thought for one second that God or whatever higher authority is non partial (unlike most of you)?
That maybe this information is meant to come out. And is meant to be seen by many.
Maybe it is time for a very painful reality check.
I thank all the people who are no longer active here for opening their hearts.
What others shared here has helped me feel less nostalgic and guilty.
I am hoping that maybe what I write will also help someone else.
But know that I am not your ennemy. We are all playing a role on this temporary stage. I was once a good guy to you and now I am the villain.
I don’t take these roles and this Avatar body too seriously.
I don’t take my spiritual life too seriously either. You guys have truly turned me off from any spiritual community for good.
I do however take the damage done to my faith and how my material life was destroyed very seriously (when I left a path that I loved).
Yes I loved the path but hated the dynamics.
I thought that I had found my purpose in life for the first time.
Please keep that false sense of spiritual superiority and call me demon!
Coming from your group, I will take it as a compliment.
I have been exposed to emotional abuse my whole life. I must say that nothing hurts more than being spiritually damaged.
Then again the forgiveness and forgetting part is my job. No one can do that for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2021 11:40PM by Truth wins.