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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: March 30, 2021 11:59PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


Generally, I understand your feelings very well, albeit after careful analysis confirmed by facts from conversations with many SIF members, reading this Forum and testimonies, the scriptures (Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam), the teachings of Indian masters i.e. Srila Haridasa Sastriji Maharaja and the Others have freed myself from doubt and pain.Therefore, I am not emotionally involved in answering you, but I understand.


Truth wins Wrote:
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> Those more influential
> disciples do whatever the heck they want.
> Noone will ban them or chastize them because they
> are an essential foundation of outreach. So the
> senior rockstar disciple turns a blind eye and let
> the abuse go on. Even if many people have gone to
> him and cry about the hurt that the leader of the
> center has caused them.

Yes, I know it. But the question is how far they went with it. And what if:
- for political purposes, Tulsi Gabbard claims that Sri Caitanya taught Karma Yoga when this was not the main purpose of this Incarnation's appearance.
- for recruitment purposes, posts are made where the post before the Appearance Day of Sri Caitanya says that it is the mantra and not sankirtana that gives life - the verse from Siksastaka is reworked
- if for political purposes Tulsi Gabbard accepts a subsidy from a mega abortion clinic performing over 330,000 abortions per year ...
- if for over 20 years nothing has been known that the Master has an adopted son,
- if one of the foster daughters plays as an double in a movie by an obscene director,
- and so on.

Then one has to answer the question - does this not conflict with Vaisnava teachings and ordinary morality?

> They may pretend that the external world is
> dangerous but their spiritual society is much more
> dangerous than the material world.

> I have been exposed to an amazing amount of
> uggliness in the material world, but it has never
> affected me as much as spiritual injustice.


I also noticed this way / aspect at some stage. An exaggeration of the existing defects of the surrounding outside world. Building group cohesion. Then the syndrome of a besieged fortress.

> The fact that I am not easily able to forgive them
> is because after I left, I was faced with hell.

People told that. "We prefer go to hell without you, than heaven with you". Sweet activists...

> If there is true divine justice, noone will be
> protected from the harm they cause to another
> individual. No matter how much they externally
> accomplish for their master and God.

Points i noted before are rather going into a minefield. Justice. What could it be?


> I truly believe that they think they are doing
> ONLY good. The goal is to give as many lectures as
> possible. To attract as many “lost” soul as
> possible. To “give them Krishna” so that they can
> later turn them off that same deity.

Thera are good sheep that feed the homeless, chant the Holy Name - do kirtans, and that's good. But activists do get involved in politics.

There are also bad fruits. So the result is "misra" - mixed up.


> Ladies and gentelmen, I present to you the PURE
> REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD ON THE PLANET!

What does it mean? Free the influence of the 3 modes of material nature? Nirguna? Doesn't stop at red lights, doesn't eat mangoes, doesn't need to drink distilled water, doesn't need project subsidies? What is this theory?

> I guess white lies and hypocrisy pass if it is in
> the service of God and dictated by one who hears
> God perfectly in his heart.

Caution. Attention is either in the outer world, or in the inner, or divided. Global political ambitions must inevitably keep attention in the outside world. The question is in what moods? Gunach? Pure satva? Rajas? Tamas? Misra - mixed?

I also had problems teaching in the city. Recruitment. In fact, I never recruited. It was a profound psychological problem.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2021 12:06AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: March 31, 2021 01:13AM

Dawatcher I was not emotionally involved either till a few months ago. Too many things happened that got me thrown into the hell hole of SoI.
It is the one year of prison lockdowns that have opened up many old wounds.
Everything that gave me solace and purpsoe was taken away because of the travel restrictions. I am not used to this situation.
Just a few months ago I was still in touch with some old so called friends.
I had a very civil relation with all of them.
I never thought in a million years that all the bridges would be burnt and I would find myself in the camp of those who expose SoI.
Trust me I would be willing to pay to have them and my years spent with them erased from my memory.
My interaction with them recently has been extremely intense and it will take time to heal from that very dramatic situation.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: March 31, 2021 08:06AM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dawatcher I was not emotionally involved either
> till a few months ago. Too many things happened
> that got me thrown into the hell hole of SoI.
> It is the one year of prison lockdowns that have
> opened up many old wounds.

Sure, there are wounds, life has passed. Some do not have kids, lost their careers, did not supply themselves with basic like appartment, house etc. But there was a quest for the truth.

> Everything that gave me solace and purpsoe was
> taken away because of the travel restrictions. I
> am not used to this situation.

> Just a few months ago I was still in touch with
> some old so called friends.

Real friends turned out to be friends.

> Trust me I would be willing to pay to have them
> and my years spent with them erased from my
> memory.

That what one cannot erase are their constant trials. Look at this:

[www.facebook.com]

The title: Jesus, ambassador of peace and love

Poland is a Catholic country

Quote

A CBOS survey from November 2011 showed that 95% of Poland's inhabitants declare themselves Catholic. It is, after Malta, the highest percentage in Europe. According to the Institute of Statistics of the Catholic Church, believers in God constitute 80% of the population of Poland (this is also the result of the Eurobarometer 2010 survey).

Do you guys want to enlighten anyone here?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: April 01, 2021 10:54AM

Yes and they'll quickly slip in telling you that jesus is lord brahma or something made up. They'll tell you all sorts of stories about how Jesus went to India and met various bhakti acharyas.

I don't no any Christian cults or sects that try to pedal that Krishna met up with Jesus on the sly.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: April 02, 2021 01:20AM

Good read: [www.dailyo.in]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: April 02, 2021 05:49AM

Great videos by Gaura Rader: [www.youtube.com]
and [www.youtube.com]

I just find it curious how they need to fall back in Jesus (or yoga nidra, hatha yoga, ayurveda, guitars and bongos) to make their cult look more relatable and appealing to both themselves and newcomers. I don't see any christians using krishna as a way to appeal to followers. And it's crazy they go as far as suggesting christ is brahma, a hindu god... basically appropriating other traditions teachers/gods into their fold to try to gain some sort of artificial superiority. They do the same thing with Budhha (claiming the buddha character is a "dasavatara" of vishnu) and Shankarachary (That he is an incarnation of the demigod shiva). It's usurping other traditions and claiming the superiority of yours by amalgamated concoction. It's playing fast and dirty with other people's faiths. No christian accepts that christ is brahma and no serious advaitavadi accepts that shankaracharya is shiva's incarnation. Let alone Shiva "the greatest devotee of krishna"... all fabricated propaganda.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: April 03, 2021 01:08AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good read:
> [www.dailyo.in]-
explains-hinduism-buddhism-links/story/1/15686.html

Interesting.

Again mantra.pl

[www.facebook.com]

Last 11 posts - 4 of them in connection with Jesus.

Of course I understand these guys in Hawaii, the ass is starting to get stressed with the Chineese People's Liberation Army fleet. We've offended Krishna, maybe we'll ask Jesus for grace. Then the next step is Virgin Mary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2021 01:10AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 05, 2021 11:04PM

The theory of Jesus passing through India and being considered a Yogi is not something the SoI came up with.
There are many books written on the “lost” years of Jesus.
These subjects are extremely complicated once you turn the critical mind on and go very deep down the rabbit hole.
I heard someone say recently that the “Truth” movement does not exist because noone really knows the Truth.
At the end of the day, faith is based on belief. And there is nothing more powerful than the power of belief.
Yes SoI has many tactics to make the process more appealing to the potential “recruits”. Once you are in, it is like entering some secret club from a shady backdoor.
When I look at SoI, I see a hospital and many unqualified doctors who harm the patients because they themselves have many issues they can never address.
I seriously do not envy people in the position of spiritual teachers. It is not like their task is easy.
Most people who come to spiritual life want relief from something and heavy baggage. I have honestly admited that I am not the most leveled person around.
This is why in all fairness, I think that the SoI mess is a group effort.
In the Vedas, or time of Jesus, seems as though there was this much more intimate relation with the Guru. And loving relation between devotees.
It is like when small businesses are sold to a major corporation and it loses its quality (small production versus mass production).
How can you possibly manage thousands of lost souls remotely. Without a person being able to see the real side of the Guru in his habitat.
They have a famous saying in SoI:
“If you cannot stand the heat, do not work in the kitchen”
This means that if you cannot appreciate the privilege of appreciating the free labor at the cost of your physical and mental well being, you are the loser.
It is what we call “victim shaming”, but in this process there are no abusers. There is only 2 answers as to why people leave:
The pull of Mayadevi and offenses.
All they do is to save the appearances and make things look good from the outside by such “Jesus” lectures.
Look at us! We are non sectarian and quite well versed in other religions.
But we have a quite hard time following the teachings of our own scriptures correctly. A minimum care and respects in the devotee community.
Who cares about that detail! Let us focus on Jesus and how close hai teachings are to Bhakti.
Few years ago I came across a healer that is not linked to any religion.
He has done the inner work and his soul is just radiating with a divine beauty that I have rarely seen.
Just by beig around him and the loving atmosphere he creates, I would just become a totally different person.
An atmosphere of acceptance, no fear, no judgment...
He may not be a pure devotee (not even vegetarian)but he influenced me more (positively)in just a few weeks than all my years in the SoI.
Back then I would have judged and avoided such a rare Gem just because of my fanatical views.
Thankfully I can now appreciate people by their actions and not just by the external devotee shell.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: April 06, 2021 04:49PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At the end of the day, faith is based on belief.
> And there is nothing more powerful than the power
> of belief.

For simple minds - yes. But for those who inquire - where did the scientific trends of investigating the cause of life come from when confronted with physics, for example, with the principles of thermodynamics, research on the nervous system and the brain (dichotomy and two hemispheres, equilibrium cerebellum, etc.)

> Yes SoI has many tactics to make the process more
> appealing to the potential “recruits”. Once you
> are in, it is like entering some secret club from
> a shady backdoor.

And then the etiquette leader can publicly say, "You're in your ass again." Group mailing is not used in private businesses, but he can because his business is sacred. And so on ...

> This is why in all fairness, I think that the SoI
> mess is a group effort.

J. Bismark and MLM methods...

See the webinars mantra.pl from Mr. Midget. Mr. Midget is sad. Man, what mode of material nature leads to sadness? Passion. Ok, sometimes he'd laugh. The subject is the basics taught over 30 years. The group gradually gets enthusiastic and enthusiastic comments appear. Mostly woman. It is also repeated in the group that the Guru has already said everything. Well, you ask them some questions in Sanskrit, what another Guru from another sanga said, and they were surprised - oh my, it's Sanskrit ...

Why mostly women? That's the method. Emotions.

Mr. Midget doesn't like hard intellect. His instinctive reactions to such contact are beyond his control and are hostile.

And the truth of the backstage. One of the most empathetic people at SIF Polska said about him - "I am afraid of his wrath". And such a nice, well-groomed one. As if someone was turning it up by computer.

No tadana & lalana. Disciple is afraid of wrath...

> How can you possibly manage thousands of lost
> souls remotely. Without a person being able to see
> the real side of the Guru in his habitat.

That's what some of other Gurus told. The argument. But in SIF they have this kind of thing - you don't work, you have no relationship.

Hey sweet leader, the basis of the relationship is tadana & lalana. In general, Gita says: come closer, ask humble questions, and serve with devotion.

The sect, I repeat, says: work with devotion when prompted by the leaders, do not approach the guru because he has more important matters and it is best not to ask questions.

One of the jokes circulating among the ex-members is a remembered situation when there was silence after the kirtan and someone asked one of the leaders, "Such and such, can you tell us something about Krishna ??"


> They have a famous saying in SoI:
> “If you cannot stand the heat, do not work in the
> kitchen”

This mentality makes sick

> The pull of Mayadevi and offenses.

What about the married leader who stayed overnight with the divorcee?

> All they do is to save the appearances and make
> things look good from the outside by such “Jesus”
> lectures.
> Look at us! We are non sectarian and quite well
> versed in other religions.


A few days ago, there was a post on mantra.pl and a webinar entitled "Jesus, an ambassador of peace and love". Below him in the commentary appeared a verse from the Bible, words of Jesus:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

And what did the enlightened sisters at the hospital do? They deleted the verse. It does not fit the narrative and objectives of the lecture and the image created.

The Bible doesn't fit doesn't answer, apparently.

> Just by beig around him and the loving atmosphere
> he creates, I would just become a totally
> different person.
> An atmosphere of acceptance, no fear, no
> judgment...

And that's the point.
The SIF methodology is idol creation, sentimentalism, naimittika dharma mastered in restraining drug addicts' behavior, recruitment and winding similar to MLM and so on. Of course, high ideas attract good people and mantras and scriptures do their job well.

But anyway, there are many good people outside the SIF world.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2021 05:06PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: April 06, 2021 08:03PM

I think something that is really sad is how the time, energy and money of the devotees is wasted.
All the money and efforts that was put into the Gabbard campaign. All it did was to create more disclosure about the SoI.
The insanity of working around the Germaphobia when people serve the Guru directly. Like washing 50 towels a day.
Not to speak of the health damages of getting so many shots in order to have the golden opportunity to be used and abused.
Another thing that literally “kills” me is the elaborate Wailana videos.
I know the fact that they show her so much is because she is a PURE DEVOTEE.
Like I had to accept that a person I had never seen in my life. A person I had never heard speak on spirituality, is a pure devotee just because I was told so.
If this is not brainwashing and blind faith, what is?
I guess they see it as Darshan. Blessing the population of the planet by having them look at this absolute blessing from the spiritual realm on youtube and get purified.
These videos must cost so much and take time.
Her voice is an absolute torture to the ears and her accent is almost impossibe to understand. Like what are they thinking? It is insanity.
Imagine all the good that can be done with that time and money if it was used in a more charitable way.
My heart aches really for those who are involved. I know that they still get happinesss from slaving and sweating for non sensical projects.
But what a waste of talent and energy. I don’t think that this was ACB’s vision when he brought the philosphy to the West.
Devotees are mostly sleep deprived and MAXED OUT. This is another devotee expression: Maxed out. Never mind. It is for your own good.
Idol time is Maya’s playground. It is for your own good. Stay busy busy busy working for free. Never have the time to question.
This philosophy is truly a gun in the wrong hands. It can be used in 100 different ways to manipulate people.
Many devotees end up with chronic illnesses. But hey it is their Karma.
Nothing to do with pushing people beyond their limits mixed with the feeling of fear and guilt.
One must have a really solid psyche and body in order to survive the SoI. It should not be like that. Spiritual life is not about the survival of the fittest.
There is a part of me that feels very sad for having entered the camp of the ennemy. Losing all my friends, teachers after decades and being hated by them.
However many people took their lives silently and never got a chance to express what pushed them to that point. I will not be a silent victim.
CB spent years exposing the non sense of Iskcon thinking that his branch is as pure as the water of the Ganges.
The crimes of the Iskcon false gurus was so bad, that it always made SoI and CB look as white as snow.
But the 724 pages in here were not written out of Malice alone.
The time has come for a painful reality check.

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