That's a good way to look at it. A wound that needs time to heal.

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The essential problems remain though ... untrained and unlicensed people performing a scientifically untested method on 'clients' who have probably paid at least a small sum for the service.

There is another problem.

People who have been indoctrinated in cults and who are sincerely trying to free themselves very often try to get a sense of agency by too quickly setting up groups of their own in order to create a healing alternative to the cult (or family, or relationship) that disempowered them.

This has all the hazards of dating on the rebound.

All too often with all the best intentions in the world, the people who were abused in cults or really rotten families or relationships cant stand the feeling of betrayal and powerlessness and want to get a sense of agency immediately, and to get this by being of service.

In some cases they may jump too quickly and without adequate training into the helper/healer role and fail to address their own shadow issues, and instead seek such a career as a way to flee from or bypass their own shadow issues.

In the worst outcomes, they may end up re-enacting the abuse patterns they suffered under in their earlier group. Saddest of all, they may risk as would-be healers, may re-enacting the role of abusive leader.

It may be that some of the gurus we discuss here on RR.com started out with utterly sincere desires to heal from their own abuse, but due to the terror quotent, they bypassed the needed ground work for personal therapy and too quickly moved into the role of leader and ended up recreating the very situation in which they were harmed.

To heal in therapy, one has to revisit, consciously, one's shattering and disempowering experiences of betrayal, so that one can transition from having split them off to integrating them. This is something so hard core that it can only be done slowly, and the process may take years. Just getting to a point where one can trust the therapist can take years.

But ...she started out in an ashram at age 14, then was involved in Muktananda's ashram in the later years of Muk's life, when things were getting very, very ugly in that organization, and then went on to spend over ten years in BK land.

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helpme2times
It looks like Janaki has removed the comments. I wonder why?

Well, Janaki has posted this cryptic comment about disabling comments to her Byron Katie story:

"I have decided to stop posting the comments, and I would like to thank everyone who took the time to respond.
I receive many comments, and they either make me seem right or they make me seem wrong. The point of this story is not about being right or wrong, it is not about helping people, it is only about expressing something that used to be afraid to express itself. It is no longer afraid, that is all."

To me, these words reveal that someone's mind has been seriously f-ed with.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/21/2009 10:57PM by helpme2times.

Very much agree with Corboy.

I think there are different types of people that become gurus, and I think there are definitely people who start out believing they are helping and do not know how to handle power, and end up producing a huge mess.

The real benefit of learning to do therapy properly, through an accredited college/university degree , IMHO, is that it teaches ethics and boundaries.

Therapists, even after personal counseling, are not going to be perfect; everyone has a shadow side.But therapists need to be aware of where their shadow side lies,and how to make sure it does not impact on their clients.
This is where ethics are helpful..Therapists do not take money from clients beyond the agreed on fees.They are aware of the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship, so that they do not abuse the power differential.No sex with clients.No clients babysitting for therapists, or doing house work.They work for the clients' best interests, and they get feedback from other therapists/supervision on what they are doing.They make sure clients are aware of the risks and benefits of therapy.They don't promise miracles, and make sure that the client is aware that therapy does not always improve things.And they respect the client. And if there is a reason why the therapists' own "stuff" , or lack of expertise in that area, is going to get in the way of providing good care for the client, the therapist refers the client to more suitable help.And the therapist will get therapeutic help for themselves to work on their stuff.
There are many different types of therapy, with different philosphies and beliefs (ranging from psychotherapy which can last for years, to brief solution focused therapy which may only last for about ten sessions, or cognitive behavioral therapy which is based on the client changing thought patterns and behaviors) but they all have in common a belief in the importance of ethics.And regulatory bodies to inforce them.
It can be interesting to look at how ethics plays out in different groups, and whether they hold themselves to the same basic ethical standard as accredited counselors/therapists/psychologists are required to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2009 01:07AM by yasmin.

I suppose when it comes down to it, that it is all about checks and balances.When they aren't there, problems are far more likely to occur.

I always have my radar turned on- probably too much. I'm going into law enforcement and I can even see how rigid the criminal justice system is set up. Makes me nervous to fully commit. Maybe just bad memories from my past.

That is deep Byron Katie mental patterning, and mental programming language.
Like when people get into the BK thought-reform system, they start to sound like her in language..mimicking the same phrases that she uses?
This one could have been written by BK herself...

QUOTE:
"it is only about expressing something that used to be afraid to express itself. It is no longer afraid, that is all".

The self, the emotions, become an "it". Like BK says...'the body does ___". Depersonalization.

But if a person is involved in a thought reform systems for 15-30 years, you don't come out of it in a few months. It must be very confusing to not know one's thinking has been patterned by another.
Its probably easier to jump from one thought-reform system, to another one.
Undoing years of false beliefs, and twisted thoughts that have been programmed in...wow...

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helpme2times
Well, Janaki has posted this cryptic comment about disabling comments to her Byron Katie story:

"I have decided to stop posting the comments, and I would like to thank everyone who took the time to respond.
I receive many comments, and they either make me seem right or they make me seem wrong. The point of this story is not about being right or wrong, it is not about helping people, it is only about expressing something that used to be afraid to express itself. It is no longer afraid, that is all."

Quote
The Anticult
But if a person is involved in a thought reform systems for 15-30 years, you don't come out of it in a few months. It must be very confusing to not know one's thinking has been patterned by another.
Its probably easier to jump from one thought-reform system, to another one.
Undoing years of false beliefs, and twisted thoughts that have been programmed in...wow...

Yeah, I really feel for Janaki. I'm amazed she was able to get it together sufficiently to write down all that she did. I really hope her story helps a lot of people. It sure is helping me.

This is a very disturbing and sad post. Its heartbreaking to watch people's minds being shattered like this. Its an excerpt from a comment at the Guruphiliac blog (below) from early 2009.

Its so disturbing, to see regular everyday people get taken in by these extremely powerful techniques, and then literally have their minds scrambled over the course of a couple of weeks, by the dozens and even more than 100 techniques being used by Byron Katie at her LGAT seminars, and after the seminar.

Its all carefully planned out, Byron Katie knows exactly what can happen, as she forces every Byron Katie seminar attendee to sign the Byron Katie School for The Work RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]

This person is aware of only some of what was done to her, but not most of it, yet.

Notice below, that Byron Katie is made aware that this person having a mental breakdown, and just pushes her FURTHER into it. Why?
Notice below, that Byron Katie is literally pushing this person into MANIA and says that "freedom is like mania". Mania is one of the most destructive and dangerous states a human can get into, mania can destroy your life, it can end your life. [www.behavenet.com]
Why is Byron Katie pushing this person into mania on purpose? In mania, people do things like give away all their money, or gamble it all away.
Byron Katie knows this person happens to have plenty of money, and could go into the "Aftercare" process, and be sold into the Turnaround House, and give more "donations", etc. The worse she gets, the more "Aftercare" she needs. (After-care...for what? For more harm from the unlicensed quack who hurt you in the first place?)
Also notice Byron Katie KNOWS she has money, and is pushing this person to "end suffering on the planet" which means, work for Byron Katie as a volunteer for years, and "donate" all of your money and time to her. (heard that one before?)
Notice also, that yet another person wanted to get a divorce, right after the Byron Katie "School".

These are not accidents. Its all engineered right into the LGAT seminar, The School For The Work.
That is why Byron Katie says..."I know" when this lady tells her she is having a mental breakdown. Of course Byron Katie "knows", she designed it, she engineered it. Anyone with the proper training can see if a person follows the BK system, they are going to be in "checkmate", and have some type of mental breakdown. Then guess what? The person becomes completely dependent and fused with Byron Katie for years, and even for life for some of them. There are dozens right now who are in that inner circle of Byron Katie, and will be there for many years, if not for life.

But even in this report, you see the Byron Katie manipulation of the word "Voluntary", which is her escape hatch, and is also used as a tactic. Its not voluntary, its unconscious and complex group persuasion, and notice how Byron Katie refuses to accept any responsibilty of her abuses of power. People need to remember that people's consent is being Engineered by a highly skilled professional, and you can't have consent without full disclosure. There is no consent where there is systematic deceit.

Notice how people are taken into the streets, and stripped of their identities and money...(notice the symbolism? NO MONEY and NO IDENTITY, that is a rehearsal for what can happen next).
Food deprivation to induce weakened states where people become more suggestible, sleep deprivation to increase suggestibility.
This is also not the first time it has been stated that people were "tripping out" like they were being "dosed" with some type of drug.

They are encouraged to do countless Worksheets, which scramble their minds even more. Repeatedly doing those bizarre Turnarounds, is literally going to give a person a thinking disorder, and could trigger a psychotic break. To constantly twist and warp your thinking in circles like that, is going to scramble your cognitive processes. And once you scramble your cognitive processes, you can be completely debilitated. Its literally making mincemeat of your mind.

Even after a person's mind and life has literally been destroyed, they sometimes still have "mixed feelings" about the process. This is how complex and subtle the deep programming is. They are still on some level blaming themselves for what happened. But if they had studied these methods for years, and knew what happened to them, they would NOT blame themselves, as they have been duped by a highly-skilled professional, in an extreme abuse of power. This is one of the worst abuses of these techniques out there today, as the targets are just regular folks, and soccer moms.

Its somewhat like using a nuclear battleship against a family in a canoe. Or a modern tank against a family home.

For the average untrained person, who is completely unaware about these techniques, how can they defend themselves? Are they to go with barefists against a tank?
This is mind-rape, soul-rape. That kind of extreme power used against vulnerable people, that is as bad as it gets.
She lures them in, bombards them with dozens and even a hundred of the most powerful thought-reform and LGAT techniques ever known in history, she absolutely HAMMERS their minds from 20 directions at once, and does it under the fog of a Love-Bomb.
Its hard to think of the correct metaphor to describe it.
Byron Katire presents herself as a simpleton, a savant, a talking head wearing a pantsuit.
Meanwhile, she is running at least 100 of the most powerful thought-reform techniques ever known, all at once. The time has come to make a list of all the techniques she is running at once on people.
The average untrained person doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.

Those top experts in the world, with many years of experience and training in this area, know how powerful these techniques are, and would NEVER subject themselves to these processes like this.

Please, if a person is going through a nightmare like this, STOP doing the Byron Katie processes and please seek some professional, trained, ACCREDITED assistance. Not from anyone associated with Byron Katie in any way.
Mania is not "freedom", mania is destruction and even death.

Please do not "surrender" to Byron Katie. What is happening to you is not what you are being told. She is using very common techniques on people, which are not known to the general public.

How can Gurus consciously and joyfully visit this level of extreme mental abuse on vulnerable people? Most Gurus are quite smart, and yet have severe personality disorders, and forms of malignant narcissism, with a complete lack of empathy or a normal conscience.
[www.mayoclinic.com]

QUOTE excerpt:
__________________________________________
At 2/17/2009 12:11 AM, C said...
"Byron Katie Is Either Going To Enlighten You Or Kill You Trying"
...or both.

I have many mixed feeling and thoughts regarding Byron Katie and The Work of Byron Katie, as it is actually called. I will share some of my experience with this group as thoroughly and briefly as possible.

I attended a School for the Work of BK in 2007. I had no prior experience with the work, save a you tube video of Katie doing TW with a participant. My initial reaction was one of awe how someone so tortured could, using the method of inquiry, come to such a quick resolution of painful thoughts and memories. I thought his was something I would like to learn how to do for me and others and signed up for the course. Money was not an issue (ahh, the good old days...). Prior to The School I would describe myself as smart, thoughtful, very frank, an excellent parent, a loving occasionally dissatisfied wife, generally happy, outgoing, kind,intuitive, strongly linked to family of origin, focused, laid back, funny, unconventional, decisive, stable, very open minded- along with a host of not so great qualities, but they were not dominant.

The basics of The School are as described by others above. The recommendation was to observe a drug free, sugar free diet for ten days prior to event to remove any potential mind altering affects of the substances. I did not see this recommendation and, therefore, did not follow it. I had no problem with the diet or food offered or lack there of on day/s of fasting. Also, it is recommended that all attendees read Loving What Is prior to attending the School. I did not do this either, as I could not manage to read the book for unknown reasons.

All participation in exercises are repeatedly called optional, yet, there was a strong urging by BKI to explore "who you would be with out your story" and to allow yourself the opportunity "to get what you came for." For me that meant to go with the assignments and exercises and to explore my limits, which I must admit were pretty broad before The School. I, also, noticed Katie saying things like "enjoy the trip, often." Silence, fasting, connecting deeply with others were all things/ ideas I was quite comfortable doing. Even with the outing, having no idea of where we were going, what we were doing, no money and no talking in LA, I was quite comfortable. I found it to be amazingly freeing to have no money or identity and found that people talked to me whether I spoke to them or not and told me the most incredibly intimate things. I really surrendered to The Work. I did The Work on all kinds of stressful thoughts and beliefs and I had some amazing and strange experiences.

One such experience involved a spontaneous "trip" or altered state of consciousness that was very reminiscent of being on mushrooms. That particular evening was many days into the event, and I had not eaten much that evening (of my own volition). I had an extreme affinity for the wall to wall carpeting and was laughing intensely at the nature of "it" all and feeling a deep connection to those around me and the "oneness". I was disconcerted by these feelings as I noticed thoughts racing (not to mention loving wall to wall carpet!) and have had experience with both psychedelics and the mentally ill. I have oft supposed that being psychotic would be much like tripping, yet without the knowledge from whence it came or the good faith belief that it would wear off soon enough. Anyway, I went back to the gathering and felt totally ungrounded and thought it best to get some food to potentially help me reconnect with reality. After explaining the way I was feeling to a facilitator, I had to firmly request food several times and wait for quite a while before any was forth coming. The "facilitators" scurried around asking each other or their higher ups if I was allowed food, as it was outside of slated eating times. I did feel better after eating and went to bed. Over the next couple of days I saw many other people who looked like they were tripping, too. If you have ever done so, you may notice a dilated pupil and demented look on the person's face. I was intrigued and am in no way claiming that BKI dosed participants, yet I believed it to be a purposeful inducement of this state through intensive self inquiry. Nor do I think that everyone in attendance had such an experience. For me it was not unwelcome and did not concern me much as I figured it was a by product of dealing in the fringe.

I looked great, I lost weight, I even stopped biting my fingernails- an unheard of event for me, I felt at peace, connected and ready to continue The Work and conquer the world. I had come to the conclusion that I wanted to leave my husband or have an open relationship. When I returned home the strange continued. I felt no more connected to my adorable toddler than my china, and nearly passed out when I realized this. I dutifully did The Work on the stressful thoughts that arose and continued in the Aftercare Program as prescribed by BKI.

Approximately two months after The School all thought became stressful. I consulted Katie about this and she said "I know". She told me freedom was like mania, but without the fear. She told me that we are all projections of MY mind, and that I have been given my life situation (plenty of money and no job) because it is my job to, if I understood correctly, end the suffering on this planet. There is more, but I will wrap this up because it is already hideously long. I ended up on anti-psychotics for several months. Of course I cannot know that this would not have happened had I not gone to BK's School, yet I firmly believe that it is the cause. I have not been diagnosed with any mood disorder despite seeing several psychologists and a psychiatrist. This past year has been debilitating. I would now describe myself as generally unhappy, a poor/guilty parent, sad, regretful, confused, hopeless, depressed, fuzzy, stuck in a Gordian Knot of complications, conflicted, marginally funny, unable to make decision to run my affairs, dissatisfied, disconnected from family and suffering immensely.

Perhaps, I should just ask the four questions and do the turn around?
________________________________________________


[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]
Note:
[be aware that many/most of the comments there are from the many dozens of people who sell the Byron Katie products and process for a living, and they can be completely indocrinated, and they also need to protect their own incomes, as they have spent 10's and hundreds of thousands of dollars on Byron Katie. Some of them clearly are also very self-centered, and only care about their own incomes, and themselves].



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2009 07:12AM by The Anticult.