Byron Katie (the Work) and Janaki, Tony Parsons Anti-Guru Guru
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 21, 2009 05:10AM
yes, regardling Tony Parsons. A quick search before seemed to have him come up with some Ramtha cult stuff, but that does not appear to be the case.
One would have to look into him, very very carefully.
What is a "residential"? Sounds like a live-in LGAT seminar? That would have to be analyzed.
People should be very cautious with this non-dual stuff, in my view.
For example, for someone from philosophy, you immediately think whoever thought of the term non-dual, was making a satirical in-joke. Non-dual, is a negation.
Why not just say Oneness, like they used to say back in the LSD days...
Or how did the Buddha order his hotdog? He said, "make mine One with everything".
As a matter of fact, so-called "materialists" are also non-dual...yadda yadda yadda, pass the bong..
But its interesting to see how people do The Guru-Hop, in one way or another.
To be honest, Tony Parsons raises my eyebrows in about 9 seconds...
Here is his own approved blurb about himself...
QUOTE
"To meet with Tony Parsons is to encounter a paradox. Tony is unexpectedly ordinary and very approachable, but the message he communicates is unique and revolutionary. It is delivered with a gentle but impersonal authenticity which recognisably emanates from absolute clarity."
WATCH OUT! He is playing with opposites...Ordinary/Unique, approachable/revolutionary, gentle, absolute clarity. Absolute clarity? A paradox? A paradox is absolute clarity? Oh no it ain't!
;-)
From sentence #1 they are playing word mind-games.
Also, there is no such thing as absolute clarity...absolutely...its a non-absolute absolute. (this stuff is easy!).
Then, they say they give FREE telephone calls with Tony in his office?
Then there are intro meetings for a few bucks, which is very common, free intros.
Again, not making a judgement call YET, about Tony Parsons, but so far the eyebrows are scraping the ceiling...
What if the first stuff is free and cheap, and then the "Residentials" and other stuff is based on "voluntary donations" to spread the message? Ya think?
Not saying it is...yet.
But the OSHO, Gurdjieff, Ouspensky links are not a good sign. The Tony Parsons meetings sound exactly like the Gurdjieff- Ouspensky approach.
Hey, this could be an Anti-Guru Non-Guru Guru Version 4.0. One would have to look into it carefully first.
Guru's Version 1.0-5.0
[forum.culteducation.com]
One would have to look into him, very very carefully.
What is a "residential"? Sounds like a live-in LGAT seminar? That would have to be analyzed.
People should be very cautious with this non-dual stuff, in my view.
For example, for someone from philosophy, you immediately think whoever thought of the term non-dual, was making a satirical in-joke. Non-dual, is a negation.
Why not just say Oneness, like they used to say back in the LSD days...
Or how did the Buddha order his hotdog? He said, "make mine One with everything".
As a matter of fact, so-called "materialists" are also non-dual...yadda yadda yadda, pass the bong..
But its interesting to see how people do The Guru-Hop, in one way or another.
To be honest, Tony Parsons raises my eyebrows in about 9 seconds...
Here is his own approved blurb about himself...
QUOTE
"To meet with Tony Parsons is to encounter a paradox. Tony is unexpectedly ordinary and very approachable, but the message he communicates is unique and revolutionary. It is delivered with a gentle but impersonal authenticity which recognisably emanates from absolute clarity."
WATCH OUT! He is playing with opposites...Ordinary/Unique, approachable/revolutionary, gentle, absolute clarity. Absolute clarity? A paradox? A paradox is absolute clarity? Oh no it ain't!
;-)
From sentence #1 they are playing word mind-games.
Also, there is no such thing as absolute clarity...absolutely...its a non-absolute absolute. (this stuff is easy!).
Then, they say they give FREE telephone calls with Tony in his office?
Then there are intro meetings for a few bucks, which is very common, free intros.
Again, not making a judgement call YET, about Tony Parsons, but so far the eyebrows are scraping the ceiling...
What if the first stuff is free and cheap, and then the "Residentials" and other stuff is based on "voluntary donations" to spread the message? Ya think?
Not saying it is...yet.
But the OSHO, Gurdjieff, Ouspensky links are not a good sign. The Tony Parsons meetings sound exactly like the Gurdjieff- Ouspensky approach.
Hey, this could be an Anti-Guru Non-Guru Guru Version 4.0. One would have to look into it carefully first.
Guru's Version 1.0-5.0
[forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
solea13
Exploring Janaki's Katie story & blog further, I see that she is strongly influenced by Tony Parsons, another non-dualism teacher. She quotes a large portion of 'The Open Secret' written by him and also links to his website of the same name.
Tony Parsons presents himself as one of the 'non-guru' gurus that we've discussed before on the thread. Non-threatening, friendly, completely approachable. He says he's not any more enlightened than the rest of us, but apparently he still has something to teach that involves the need for books, tapes and talks.
The front page of his website says explicitly 'nothing for sale'. In fact, although there are some free downloads on his site, he is selling the books for about $26 a pop. His 'talks' are about $20 per person. It's not clear how much is being charged for 'residentials'.
I watched one of the videos of Janaki 'Co-working' with two other people, which still involved taking the belief 'I need to help people' and examining that thought in the light of the 'four questions'. The only difference in the approach really, is the absence of Byron Katie. So at least there are a few less people who Katie is not making money off of!
The essential problems remain though ... untrained and unlicensed people performing a scientifically untested method on 'clients' who have probably paid at least a small sum for the service.
It's interesting to consider that the theory of non-dualism apparently doesn't leave people with the freedom of mind to just live their ordinary lives with satisfaction. People can't just think, "Oh, neat, we're all One, there's no need to judge myself or others. I can go ahead and live my life as fully as possible given that difficult things are bound to happen and are a natural part of life's process."
Must there always be an endless series of questions, turnarounds, talks, excercises and workshops? It seems that a significant portion of one's money and time must go into maintaing the proper non-dual perspective ... talk about navel-gazing!
* * *
Hmm... just to add to that, Tony Parsons was into Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and lived for a while as a devotee in the Oshso commune (in England I think). At least he doesn't keep his past secret.
And this quote reminds me of Eckhardt's story about living in bliss on a park bench. It's just the condensed version :D
"In essence what is sought is love. But it is the love that is absolute, all-embracing and eternal. It is this overwhelming love that many have glimpsed, and which I attempted to describe in The Open Secret when I seemed to be walking across a park and then was no more anyone. It wasn’t experienced because there was suddenly no experiencer. It was a glimpse that no-one glimpsed. I then returned as “a someone” and tried again and again to re-discover that unconditional love which I could not know."
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: March 21, 2009 06:51AM
Quote
helpme2times
Was this blog referenced yet?
[[url=http://dhammaleaves.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/critique-of-byron-katie/]Critique of Byron Katie[/url]]
The individual who critiques Katie on this blog, says this when told about this thread:
Quote
Hi student,
I read that Rick Ross thread and, like I wrote to Zentient, they got some paranoid, over-reactive people over there. I want nothing to do with the ad hominem attacks against Katie. I think she’s a fine person, despite disagreeing with her stark view of reality.
There were a number of good points in the critique, but wading thru the newage mumbo-jumbo is like work to me, anymore. It's the weekend; I'm done working for now.
qd
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: March 21, 2009 07:07AM
Yeah, I noticed that part later on. Oh well. He's entitled to his opinion.
Quote
quackdaveQuote
helpme2times
Was this blog referenced yet?
[[url=http://dhammaleaves.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/critique-of-byron-katie/]Critique of Byron Katie[/url]]
The individual who critiques Katie on this blog, says this when told about this thread:Quote
Hi student,
I read that Rick Ross thread and, like I wrote to Zentient, they got some paranoid, over-reactive people over there. I want nothing to do with the ad hominem attacks against Katie. I think she’s a fine person, despite disagreeing with her stark view of reality.
There were a number of good points in the critique, but wading thru the newage mumbo-jumbo is like work to me, anymore. It's the weekend; I'm done working for now.
qd
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 21, 2009 07:37AM
There is nothing paranoid about the facts about Byron Katie, quite the contrary. People are far too credulous and naive about the methods she, and many others use.
People can get sucked into this vortex for decades, and pushed into bankruptcy from the seminars, etc. That is not rare, its common practice in all these large corporate LGAT groups, like BKI, PSI, and many others. They all do it, its a huge moneymaker.
Notice he said he thinks Byron Katie is a "fine person", he obviously has not done his homework.
Some people just take the so-called philosophy at face-value, and don't look behind it, and beneath it.
To be honest, people who simply say Byron Katie is a "fine person" without doing any research into her, and just toy with the edges of the alleged philosophy are not helpful.
They don't even seem to be aware that these groups and people use New Agey pseudophilosophy to confuse people.
He also probably has never even heard of LGAT seminar techniques.
That is the scary thing, in the New Agey area, most of the people literally have never heard about various LGAT and social influence and sales techniques. It never crosses their mind that some people are experts in group persuasion. Its mind-boggling.
People can get sucked into this vortex for decades, and pushed into bankruptcy from the seminars, etc. That is not rare, its common practice in all these large corporate LGAT groups, like BKI, PSI, and many others. They all do it, its a huge moneymaker.
Notice he said he thinks Byron Katie is a "fine person", he obviously has not done his homework.
Some people just take the so-called philosophy at face-value, and don't look behind it, and beneath it.
To be honest, people who simply say Byron Katie is a "fine person" without doing any research into her, and just toy with the edges of the alleged philosophy are not helpful.
They don't even seem to be aware that these groups and people use New Agey pseudophilosophy to confuse people.
He also probably has never even heard of LGAT seminar techniques.
That is the scary thing, in the New Agey area, most of the people literally have never heard about various LGAT and social influence and sales techniques. It never crosses their mind that some people are experts in group persuasion. Its mind-boggling.
Quote
quackdaveQuote
helpme2times
Was this blog referenced yet?
[[url=http://dhammaleaves.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/critique-of-byron-katie/]Critique of Byron Katie[/url]]
There were a number of good points in the critique, but wading thru the newage mumbo-jumbo is like work to me, anymore. It's the weekend; I'm done working for now.
qd
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: March 21, 2009 07:39AM
Quote
The Anticult
Notice he said he thinks Byron Katie is a "fine person", he obviously has not done his homework.
How can he know that anyway?!
"Byron Katie is a fine person. Is that true?"
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 21, 2009 07:56AM
That is another Byron Katie "checkmate". That is a good point from the Janaki blog...that BK uses the term Checkmate. (in chess, that means there is no escape, you're trapped, Game Over).
Of course, the way to figure this stuff out is through objective research, and fact checking.
Last time I checked, someone who has been shown to lie their freaking ass off countless times, is not a fine person.
I haven't read that entire blog, but it appears to be caught-up in the Illusion, ironically.
Maybe reading the Janaki blog will shrink that illusion a bit.
Its amazing so many people can't see what these Gurus do...that's why the Guru's are all multimillionaires...go figure.
The public seems to be almost completely ignorant of the techniques. Maybe one day there will be more education about what they do to people.
Of course, the way to figure this stuff out is through objective research, and fact checking.
Last time I checked, someone who has been shown to lie their freaking ass off countless times, is not a fine person.
I haven't read that entire blog, but it appears to be caught-up in the Illusion, ironically.
Maybe reading the Janaki blog will shrink that illusion a bit.
Its amazing so many people can't see what these Gurus do...that's why the Guru's are all multimillionaires...go figure.
The public seems to be almost completely ignorant of the techniques. Maybe one day there will be more education about what they do to people.
Quote
helpme2times
How can he know that anyway?!
"Byron Katie is a fine person. Is that true?"
Byron Katie, josesiem, http://dhammaleaves.wordpress.com
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: March 21, 2009 10:21AM
ok, had a look at the blog...apparently run by someone named..
josesiem
"waves arising suddenly on a windless ocean
reflections on zen, buddhism, and advaita"
[dhammaleaves.wordpress.com]
He appears to support the methods of Byron Katie, with only some recent criticism of what he sees as being the philosophy?
He appears to be promoting the Non-dual ideas, and is less than thrilled with critical intelligence.
For example, in his reading list he says..."Reading too much is detrimental for your spiritual life."
Then recommends some Zen books. Seems to be promoting the No-Mind kinda deal.
I don't see any books there about LGAT seminar sales methods, complex legal disclaimers people are forced to sign before attending seminars, conversational hypnosis, persuasion, social influence, corporate business structures, franchising, email chain-marketing, stuffing cash in suitcases to avoid being taxed overseas on business income, and all that "ugly reality" stuff that so many "spiritual" people seem to not want to perceive.
Reading a lot is NOT detrimental to your spiritual and intellectual life. Quite the contrary, reading widely is very healthy. Actually, Gurus tell their students to not read others stuff, why? Information control.
And its pretty interesting how someone who is into the Non-Dual stuff, would call this type of analysis "garbage" I think is the word used. Clearly, he is quite wrong. He seems like a nice guy, but he is out of his league, and out of his area of knowledge.
He is also using an overgeneralized distortion, possibly to block himself from looking at these types of things.
These threads are not "garbage".
These threads could possibly save some people from falling into 10 years of exploitation, by various Gurus, not just Byron Katie.
Even just the AWARENESS that the Guru MIGHT be doing this stuff, can kill many of their techniques. That is why the Guru's fear knowledge and want to control it. Just reading some of this stuff once, can block a large part of what they do...its a seed of doubt, and a seed can grow into a tree. (that's why they want to CLEAR the mind of doubt).
Notice the almost exact comparison to what has been revealed in this thread, and the recent relevations on that new blog by a former BK volunteer. Even down to rituals around "voluntary poisoning" with a cocktail drink. Its all Voluntary...they chant....
Do people have to learn from the Byron Katie School of Hard Knocks? Or can they think intelligently, and figure things out FIRST, and not get their life wrecked?
I think the problem is so many folks focus only on the so-called "spritual" philosophy of what they are doing.
But this thread is NOT even about the spiritual philosphy, its about everything else.
The so-called philosophy of Byron Katie is about 10% of what she does.
If a person can't see that, they could be headed for serious trouble.
Its never a good thing to stick one's head into the sand from reality.
And one should read as many books as possible in as many areas as possible, especially in areas where they are vulnerable, like persuasion techniques, for example.
One can see why Byron Katie, and many others, are going after the Advaita and non-dual folks as customers. Many of them seem to be blinded by the philosophy in their eyes, and they can't see the OctoGuru coming at them from 18 different directions at once.
But it does take some training, knowledge, and education in these specific areas.
The most important thing to do is to set aside all of the "content" philosphy, and at least for a while, to focus only on the meta-level persuasion processes being done TO the audience, especially the ones that are not obvious.
Its pretty clear that most people don't even know there is such a thing, or what that means.
That truly is disturbing.
No wonder the world is awash with all of these cultlike groups run amok. Its too easy.
josesiem
"waves arising suddenly on a windless ocean
reflections on zen, buddhism, and advaita"
[dhammaleaves.wordpress.com]
He appears to support the methods of Byron Katie, with only some recent criticism of what he sees as being the philosophy?
He appears to be promoting the Non-dual ideas, and is less than thrilled with critical intelligence.
For example, in his reading list he says..."Reading too much is detrimental for your spiritual life."
Then recommends some Zen books. Seems to be promoting the No-Mind kinda deal.
I don't see any books there about LGAT seminar sales methods, complex legal disclaimers people are forced to sign before attending seminars, conversational hypnosis, persuasion, social influence, corporate business structures, franchising, email chain-marketing, stuffing cash in suitcases to avoid being taxed overseas on business income, and all that "ugly reality" stuff that so many "spiritual" people seem to not want to perceive.
Reading a lot is NOT detrimental to your spiritual and intellectual life. Quite the contrary, reading widely is very healthy. Actually, Gurus tell their students to not read others stuff, why? Information control.
And its pretty interesting how someone who is into the Non-Dual stuff, would call this type of analysis "garbage" I think is the word used. Clearly, he is quite wrong. He seems like a nice guy, but he is out of his league, and out of his area of knowledge.
He is also using an overgeneralized distortion, possibly to block himself from looking at these types of things.
These threads are not "garbage".
These threads could possibly save some people from falling into 10 years of exploitation, by various Gurus, not just Byron Katie.
Even just the AWARENESS that the Guru MIGHT be doing this stuff, can kill many of their techniques. That is why the Guru's fear knowledge and want to control it. Just reading some of this stuff once, can block a large part of what they do...its a seed of doubt, and a seed can grow into a tree. (that's why they want to CLEAR the mind of doubt).
Notice the almost exact comparison to what has been revealed in this thread, and the recent relevations on that new blog by a former BK volunteer. Even down to rituals around "voluntary poisoning" with a cocktail drink. Its all Voluntary...they chant....
Do people have to learn from the Byron Katie School of Hard Knocks? Or can they think intelligently, and figure things out FIRST, and not get their life wrecked?
I think the problem is so many folks focus only on the so-called "spritual" philosophy of what they are doing.
But this thread is NOT even about the spiritual philosphy, its about everything else.
The so-called philosophy of Byron Katie is about 10% of what she does.
If a person can't see that, they could be headed for serious trouble.
Its never a good thing to stick one's head into the sand from reality.
And one should read as many books as possible in as many areas as possible, especially in areas where they are vulnerable, like persuasion techniques, for example.
One can see why Byron Katie, and many others, are going after the Advaita and non-dual folks as customers. Many of them seem to be blinded by the philosophy in their eyes, and they can't see the OctoGuru coming at them from 18 different directions at once.
But it does take some training, knowledge, and education in these specific areas.
The most important thing to do is to set aside all of the "content" philosphy, and at least for a while, to focus only on the meta-level persuasion processes being done TO the audience, especially the ones that are not obvious.
Its pretty clear that most people don't even know there is such a thing, or what that means.
That truly is disturbing.
No wonder the world is awash with all of these cultlike groups run amok. Its too easy.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
freedom fighter
()
Date: March 21, 2009 10:44AM
I have a theory why people don't understand or don't want to understand cult brainwashing. It's exhausting.
It's a long drawn out process to brainwash a group of people and it's about as long and drawn out to undo what has been done.
It's been over 15 years since I've gotten away from the group that screwed my family. I am still exhausted from trying to undo what has been done.
I have found in general that not many are interested in seeing or hearing about the deep, horrible problem of cults that exists in this world. At least in my circle of people I know. I personally get to the point where I'm thoroughly tired of deprogramming my own messed up perception of the world and those around me. It's like I can only deal with a certain amount at a time or my mind gets too overwhelmed by the bad memories.
What I find fascinating is how easy it is for these cult leaders to do what they do yet it's so difficult to undo it after someone has been screwed. Any theories to why that is? My personal goal is to finally be completely unaffected by any negative past issues. I'm not sure if it's even possible though.
FF
It's a long drawn out process to brainwash a group of people and it's about as long and drawn out to undo what has been done.
It's been over 15 years since I've gotten away from the group that screwed my family. I am still exhausted from trying to undo what has been done.
I have found in general that not many are interested in seeing or hearing about the deep, horrible problem of cults that exists in this world. At least in my circle of people I know. I personally get to the point where I'm thoroughly tired of deprogramming my own messed up perception of the world and those around me. It's like I can only deal with a certain amount at a time or my mind gets too overwhelmed by the bad memories.
What I find fascinating is how easy it is for these cult leaders to do what they do yet it's so difficult to undo it after someone has been screwed. Any theories to why that is? My personal goal is to finally be completely unaffected by any negative past issues. I'm not sure if it's even possible though.
FF
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
Meadow
()
Date: March 21, 2009 07:31PM
Quote
corboy
That Cockroach story is just the current commercial for BK product.
Uh, Cockroach, as in Cockamamie you mean?
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Blog Critique
Posted by:
quackdave
()
Date: March 21, 2009 09:37PM
Quote
freedom fighter
I have a theory why people don't understand or don't want to understand cult brainwashing. It's exhausting.
It's a long drawn out process to brainwash a group of people and it's about as long and drawn out to undo what has been done.
It's been over 15 years since I've gotten away from the group that screwed my family. I am still exhausted from trying to undo what has been done.
I have found in general that not many are interested in seeing or hearing about the deep, horrible problem of cults that exists in this world. At least in my circle of people I know. I personally get to the point where I'm thoroughly tired of deprogramming my own messed up perception of the world and those around me. It's like I can only deal with a certain amount at a time or my mind gets too overwhelmed by the bad memories.
What I find fascinating is how easy it is for these cult leaders to do what they do yet it's so difficult to undo it after someone has been screwed. Any theories to why that is? My personal goal is to finally be completely unaffected by any negative past issues. I'm not sure if it's even possible though.
FF
I personally believe it is possible to be completely healed. Perhaps the mind/psyche has the power to heal itself, much as our body does. Obviously, a severe injury (just as in the physical) may first require a professional and then our own maintenance. But even when we suffer a deep cut in our body, and the physician stitches it up and directs us to apply ointment and periodically change the bandage, we still can't hurry the process by gritting our teeth and wishing it to happen quicker. In my case, I'm happy to be at the anger stage (of the five stages of grief/healing) after only a number of months in a lifetime of guru-hopping. That puts me at stage two, which is quite a distance from the clutches of those who would otherwise have their own plans for the rest of my life. So, I think there is reason for hope.
qd
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.