Look, I do know who the "over concerned mother" is, and do have her contact info, though I will hold off on contacting her for now.

As a matter of fact, I remember meeting her and her kids when I went to Dallas for my (quickly aborted) trial week.

She is the only one who an definitively identify "X," but she's not talking and I am not going to bother her.

Believe me, I do have record of all of it.

Thanks for the providing the testimony of overconcernedmother, Brian!

Is it possible for you to also post Dave's testimony about this ( it's on his site ) and Xenophone's. ( Sorry- you know how I am with computers- plus don't want to trawl through Dave's ramblings.) As Rick suggests- I think it's important we provide all three sources.

Thanks!

Quote
hello
Thanks for the providing the testimony of overconcernedmother, Brian!

Is it possible for you to also post Dave's testimony about this ( it's on his site ) and Xenophone's. ( Sorry- you know how I am with computers- plus don't want to trawl through Dave's ramblings.) As Rick suggests- I think it's important we provide all three sources.

Thanks!

You are welcome.

Gosh, it's a good thing that somebody is consistently keeping track of all of all the players and goings-on pertaining to the JCs, and has all of the collected data compiled in one central location for easy access and reference.

You know, something kinda like a dossier?

Otherwise, all of this material may have been lost, and X might remain be free to offend again and again.

Ol' James. He was the first JC I ever met. Small world.

All records of Xenophone's posts at XJCs are to be found here:

[jcs.xjcs.org]

And David's response is here:

[www.jesus-teachings.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2011 01:21AM by zeuszor.

With respect to authority issues, the JCs are conditioned to be anti "Roman" and so even after leaving, are anti-involvement with authorities, or perceived authorities.

Many were anti-authority even before they joined. Therefore they will not co-operate with any type of investigations, official or otherwise.

That's why most of the ex-members I've come across do not seem to like me. To them, I am a "Roman."

Here's another interesting tidbit I've found:

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2011 01:36AM by zeuszor.

Well, I've thought it over a little, and it's like this: on the one hand, I do respect and understand most ex-JCs reluctance to come out publicly to testify of their experience with David and The McKay Family Business/Jesus Christians cult. It'd be analogous to a rape victim refusing to appear in court to face and accuse her attacker; it'd be a difficult experience (to say the very least) to try and relive and give an account of, traumatic all over again. So I respect and support that unwillingness, on the one hand.

On the other hand, however...well, I'll explain this way: there was a man named Charles Garry, a prominent civil-rights attorney, who was in the seventies one of the two lawyers for Jim Jones' People's Temple, the other being a man named Lane. All indications point to the FACT that Garry knew of Jim Jones' homicidal plans and in fact had to talk him out of holding a mass murder/suicide under different circumstances about a year before Senator Ryan's visit to Jonestown. He knew that Jim was holding them hostage. Charles Garry could have blown the whistle, so to speak, and stopped Jim Jones from instigating his own final solution. Marceline Jones too, for that matter, she knew full well that her husband was nuts, dangerous, and she could have acted to somehow to stop her husband from ordering what was to come. There's a lot of blood on Garry's hands. Marceline (like Cherry) I am not sure about, victim or participant? Garry was culpable to it and a participant in it, even while out the other side of his mouth he was telling the world that Jonestown was paradise, the SOB. In fact, he also was one of Jonestown's few survivors because he lied to some guards and got out of there. Why didn't Garry and Mrs. Jones do something to stop Jim? Why did so many men and women allow Jim Jones to have sex with them publicly, spank them publicly, torture children publicly? Why would they all allow those horrors to happen? Why would Garry and Mrs. Jones not say something to the authorities in order to prevent 914 people from dying? The answer is, basically, that they all had an interest in believing in Jim Jones. Forsaking the Temple would have meant sacrificing a lot of things, not the least of which was their respective livelihoods. See? They had too much to lose at that point, later on in Jonestown.

What I am saying is, if you know of some homicidal or suicidal ideations on David McKay's part, know of some hint of violence, coercion to the end of some physical suffering or extreme sacrifice ("laying down your life for your friends," etc.) know of DM ever alluding to or speaking of suicide, murder, violence, abuse, exploitation, whatever like that: for God's sake, other people's lives are at stake here, and if something really bad happens with or to the JCs....I'll put it like this: if you knew of a man who was going around the country infecting unsuspecting partners with HIV, and in fact you yourself had been infected by this individual, and you knew where he was, who he had been with etc., and you didn't speak out, then all of the subsequent infect-ees whose HIV-positive status you could have prevented by speaking out about the creep in the first place, well, I say that you have been irresponsible and their blood is partially on your hands. In other words, you'd have a moral imperative to speak up for the good of society.

Has McKay ever mentioned the possibility of killing or being killed/martyred in his writings and among his victims/members? Of course; his stuff is replete with allusions to death and violence.

You XJCs could have information or could be able to recount experiences that could save DM's future potential victims (and X's abuse, and Bruce's, and whoever else's) a lot of time and trouble, and possibly save lives in the long run.

You have a moral imperative to do something if you can, otherwise the blood is on your hands too. You are a participant in DM's abuse (and X's abuse, and Bruce's, and whoever else's) whether you actually condone it or not.

Sorry if this post is a little rambling, it's only that I want to put a fine point on what I am trying to express, you see.

Everyone connected to this is a participant whether they realize it or not. Silence equals death. This is my opinion, frankly and with deepest respect.

One of the current members confessed to molesting two girls prior to joining the group. While in America, this same member was confronted regarding patting the buttocks of a male child. This is the person known as "X."

“Bruce,” a person known to be a pedophile, was allowed to work in India with the group. He admitted paying Indian children for oral sex on a train. Mc Kay states he was returned to Australia and handed to Federal Police and charged for the offenses, but fails to acknowledge he shouldn’t have been put in that situation in the first place.

I would like to be able to definitively identify X (as well as determine whether he is still part of the cult, or else where he is), and I would like to definitively know what ever happened to "Bruce." And then there is the matter of the man who offended in the UK some years back.

It has been alleged that there have been at least five children molested in the past by persons who were working with this cult. McKay has tried his damndest to sweep it all under the rug.

Where are the pretentious XJC "high ethical standards" and their self-righteous intellectual snobbery now? Most of their clique has cut and run now, it seems. We're trying to stop a suspected pedophile from hurting more kids, people! Hel-loo?

When people pretty much completely stop posting there (which is what eventually will happen if Nick does not put a stop to it) because of the excess of Dave's troll games, what is effectively happening is that he (Dave) is moderating the ability of others to post. Nick basically would be allowing Dave to be the moderator. This is hardly in the spirit of the forum, or of "free discussion."

No more, Dave. NO! A thousand times, NO!

The Dude Abides!

'If guess a lot depends on whether you believe the Jesus Christians have always been a cult that was born out of the Children of God or you hold a differing view. Perhaps that everything was okay up until the so called "Split"?

I say that the McKay group was doomed from the beginning, simply by virtue of the fact that DM was the one who started it.

In other words, it was a destructive cult from day one simply by virtue of DM's personality. He deliberately set out to start a cult of his own.'

I agree that this was a destructive, personality-driven cult from the beginning, and that Davejc set out to start a cult to fulfil his own needs rather than from any altruistic or religious motive. The religious concerns simply provided a useful vehicle for attracting the necessary followers. In practice the religious concerns have not, in the long run, benefitted anyone but Davejc and Cherryjc.
Regarding Cherryjc, although at one point she might have been considered a victim, she has long since made the choice to throw in her lot wholeheartedly with Davejc and must now be considered a fellow perpetrator/cult leader.
Marriage is no longer an acceptable excuse for women to willingly surrender their personhood and conscience to anothers control. Women in western culture can and do leave bad marriages and criminal husbands and are able to support themselves in today's world. Cherryjc has rejected her children and grandchildren to stay with Davejc--where the goodies that she truly values are.

'McKay has tried his damndest to sweep it all under the rug.'

Davejc's overriding ethic, if we look at his behaviour and not his endless justifications, is that the ends justify the means.
He is willingly to entertain paedophiles working in his family business, regardless of the danger and risk to children, as he needs them on the ground selling his tracts and recruiting more tract sellers and kidney donors.

So long as cult business is not disrupted he will tolerate the paedophiles.

As a sop to his questioners and an attempt to get them off this subject he promises to monitor the paedophiles more carefully in the future--I think we know what a Davejc promise is worth.

In my opinion, we on RR should just continue addressing the wider question of the DM, JC cult, and their behavior.

Better to leave Bible-based teaching and preaching in the hope of redeeming DM, getting him to admit error and remorse or changing in any way, out of it for the most part.

In my opinion, that will simply never happen on this side of eternity.

I also doubt that, unless someone closer to the offense, i.e. the "overprotective mother" or someone present in the group at the time of the pedophile "outings" is willing to make a serious complaint to the authorities in the relevant jurisdiction, that the offenses will ever be properly dealt with.

Police will take seriously a solid body of evidence (including names and dates) from someone in their jurisdiction, with reasonable suspicions that an active pedophile is operating unhindered around children, and will look into the matter.

It is important to keep pointing these incidents out, in public, as it gives the lie to DM's nonsense, and that is what will eventually get through to his victims and potential victims, if anything is ever destined to get through.

Short of getting him locked up in a secure psychiatric facility (which is unlikely to happen at this late date) starving him of public PR and support, even the negative exposure he is currently getting on the xJC's, will do more to keep him powerless, as will deleting his spam, propaganda and links to his site as he posts them.

DM and his cult is the focus of our discussion: not Kevin and his issues, not Nick, nor Apostate.

At this point I am happy to ignore them, and although I do think that apostate and Nick have a very good grip on DM's machinations, they are influenced by this need to support Kevin in the (very implausible) hopes of a happy family reunion at some point.

If that happy family reunion had ever figured in DM's plans, if he had ever wanted that at any point, he needed only to pick up a phone to make the first move, but he can't humble himself to even do that. No hope there then.

I think on RR we have to focus like a laser on DM and his nefarious activities, and let Nick, Kevin and Apostate fight their own confused, Sisyphean, and unwinnable battle for the "redemption" DM's of empty soul.

A few more words:

I am not interested in Kevin's, nor Nick's, nor apostate's motives (or lack of) in this situation.

All and any information gleaned from DM and his socks is, by nature of its source, spurious.

Anyway, Nick and his decision-making processes are peripheral to the problem.

DM is the problem. He is still active in controlling his group to some degree and will more than likely continue to attempt that active control until his very last breath.

I think that making this an issue of how Nick, Kevin or Apostate behave or contribute/fail to contribute is pointless.

We have no control over them or, it seems, much hope of a cooperative approach.

Well done, hello, for keeping to the point on the xJC's and demanding action from Davejc on the question of a possible paedophile being unhindered and free to abuse under the knowdge and protection of Davejc/Cherryjc.
It needed to be said, no matter whose sensibilities were outraged.

Outraged sensibilities versus the appalling lifelong damage a paedophile inflicts on a child?
The rest of the world, except paedophiles, their apologists and Davejc who has the ear of god, of course, have declared that one 'no contest'.

It has caused Davejc to depart in high dudgeon, but not before spamming every thread with a long article detailing his grievances against the world that refuses to glorify him--- and threatening an occasional return to post some more defensive juvenile drivel. Odd that the sock puppets fell immediately silent also.

He states that his and Cherryjc's life has been a resounding success. I suppose that he has managed to avoid the necessity of working for a living but he has alienated his children and caused untold misery to others in his pusuit of success for himself and Cherryjc. The fact that there is no mention of the consequences of his resounding success on others tells us all that we really need to know about the selfish motives driving Davejc and his resounding success.

He has managed to con well-meaning young people into donating their body-parts and working for his benefit under the guise of 'doing god's work.' He has managed to twist the moral values of those same well-meaning young people so that it is perfectly acceptable to shelter paedophiles so long as the paedophiles keep peddling his self-serving bible interpretations and recruiting more street peddlars and kidney donors for Davejc's benefit.
Fagin had nothing on you, Davejc, he was an open criminal but IMO, a philanthropist by comparison.

Here is the link to hello's demand for action:

[jcs.xjcs.org]