Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: December 17, 2008 10:40PM

Dear Apostate,

Thank you for pointing out that teenagers would not fall under section 3 of this section of the New South Wales Crimes Act. However, if I may quote directly from the article that Talamasca has provided....

And in June 2005, an Australian cult representative named Roland Gianstefani was jailed for six months for abducting a 7-year-old called Joshua Muhoho. He explained that his sect, Jesus Christians, was a nomadic religious group that calls for its members to forsake jobs, bosses, family and friends. The literature of the sect says that it is an offshoot of Children of God, a US outfit also called the Family, which entices followers with the promise of sex.

Which would mean that (assuming the facts presented in the article to be correct) EVEN in the year 2009, Joshua Muhoho would be no more than 11 or 12 years old, thus still falling within the definition of a "child" as I read section 3.....hence were this child to STILL be in Rolands' (or any other Jesus Christians' custody) and the circumstances of the matter to be as would appear that charges could still potentially be entered into, against the Jesus Christians (....Kenya of course, like Australia, being another common law country with a legal system that is based upon the incorporation, and subsequent development, of some subsumed elements of English common the light of the mutually shared history, the passage in law of an extradition treaty should be more than possible...)

As I realize that I may not be fully party to "all" the facts of the matter, would you be so kind then to indicate exactly "who" are the teenagers you write of?

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: Any questionable misrepresentation, maliciously entered into by the person of Malcolm Wesley Wrest herein, is under no circumstances to be accrued (by any mischievious claim of apparent authority) to any injury of the good standing that may be held by Apostate in these pages or elsewhere

........and may Mr Wrest be judged accordingly.......Acta extoria indicant interiora secreta (overt acts proclaim a persons' intentions and motives)

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: December 18, 2008 04:55AM

I do not consider that the above article quote is an accurate representation of the facts as the child's mother was with him, having joined the group. 6 months is a very short time to serve for "child abduction" in any country. I actually wrote a letter that could be used in his courtcase to overturn his wrongful imprisonment. I may disagree with what they do and teach others to do, but I cannot support lies about them. Why should I, when the truth is all that is needed.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2008 05:00AM by apostate.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Talamasca ()
Date: December 21, 2008 05:03AM

The real issue here is what's known as "informed consent".

It's a legal term and means that even if Joshua's mother was content for her child to join the Jesus Christians, this isn't lawful if she was subject to "coercion" or "undue influence".

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: December 24, 2008 11:52AM

Dear Apostate,

I apologise if my sources here are inaccurate....I only have the article on which to base my observations (....and of course, the record of incidences where David has deliberately sought to divide families in order to "salvage" some sort of membership for the JesusChristians).....

Dear Talamasca,

Yes I would say so! You may well have more insight into American Legal Practise that I, however I would imagine these to be fairly universally recognized concepts.

While I would need to confirm that these are concepts incorporated into Kenyan Law, The definition of "informed consent" that I have at hand, (taken from Butterworths Australian Legal Dictionary) is that it is "Consent to an act after being given full and adequate disclosure"....

(The "ACT" here in my opinion, being consent to membership of the JesusChristians and submission to the direction of David John McKay, the relinquishment of any control of property, chattels and financial resources into the hands of the said McKAY or appointed cronies....and the commitment to voluntarily devote unrecompensed years of labour to further the fortunes of McKay)

If we look at the "Duty to dislcose" I see that it is as following, "An obligation to make known matters likely to affect the decision of making of those relying on the knowledge or good character of the person having the obligation to disclose"

Does Roland now, as a matter of course, discuss with potential new recruits, the expulsion of individuals like Vicki, who drew the wrath of David, by daring to consider the health or education or her child before the wishes of God's Apostle (ie. she failed to "forsake" her children sufficiently).....or does Roland deliberately gloss over such incidents in order to purposely misrepresent that facts? Any parent of Joshua or any other child would not be in a position to evaluate the "costs" of their membership vis-a-vis the responsibility that they saw themselves holding as parents, without such the disclosure of such information.

If the latter, I'd say that he'd be in breach of (certainly English and Australian) Law, by purposely not disclosing information directly relevant to any individuals decision to join the JesusChristians.....I'd agree that six months is woefully inadequate for the deliberate fraud (and potential abduction) that could be occurring here and I would certainly be happy to write any letter that could possibly increase any period of imprisonment, being considered for him...

.....and a very, Merry Christmas to all those who David despises, derides or fears....

May God truly bless you for you for the commendations from heaven,

that you have thus so richly earned.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2008 12:06PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: December 24, 2008 07:51PM

Dear JC´s, exers, everyone who posts here and on the welikejesussite and XJCS

Merry Christmas

As we celebrate this holy season when the Saviour was born, may the reality of his saving grace which is the only justification we have prove sufficient for us.

Christmas is a special time for families and my prayer today is that ALL of the group members will contact or visit their families during this precious time of restoration and forgiveness.


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 04, 2009 12:38AM


Seeing as David and his consort continue to remain in hiding, I thought I’d come tonight with a little New Years’ present for them both.

Happy New Year David!

Guess what? Nothing about what they McKays do, or how they do it, is original. But that’s pretty much old news to all of us here, right? Allow me, however, to elaborate a bit on the topic of just how unoriginal the JCs are, and how derivative their literature really is.

I shall now present information that hopefully will decimate any shred of credibility that the McKays may have had left with anybody outside of their group.

Some basic background information for those readers who may be less familiar with the JCs: the JCs are more or less a watered-down version of the Roberts Group/Brethren, but more resentful and angrier, with a craving for publicity, and a somewhat violent bent. They are a somewhat cloned version of the very early COG, with a Roberts Group flavor and sprinklings of the Jesus Army’s character, with some Heaven’s Gate-ish sci-fi overtones thrown in for good measure.

The JCs are a simply a kind of mishmash of stuff from other cults that the McKays have studied and appropriated from as they saw fit; a highly eclectic and syncretistic cult, the JCs.

Of course, most of the JCs themselves probably do not realize this. However, I now know more about the Jesus Christians, than the Jesus Christians know about the Jesus Christians.

As the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun.

Guess what David? I didn’t go away and quit posting because I got scared and ran off, I got smart and took a temporary break from the boards. I got way too wrapped up in the forums and that’s pretty useless to a degree; all that conversation and the related distractions are counterproductive and it was destroying my sanity.

Instead, I have taken my research on your group to another, deeper level, and in addition to my efforts at self-improvement and the various educational activities that I have undertaken, I am still out here, watching and monitoring you, and keeping track of you and your group’s activities.

Furthermore (and again, old news), the McKays depend quite heavily on appropriating words, pictures, and ideas from the written material of other groups and their leaders, in order to try and perpetuate the myth of the originality of their own cult, and the ideas that they themselves present as original and innovative. The depths of their appropriation, just how much they depend on and rip off others’ work I will demonstrate shortly.

And the funniest part to me is, that they are really not even particularly very good at hiding the fact that their literature and the character of their group so closely resembles that of other known authors and cults. A lot of the JC teachings as well as the Survivors series are directly copied from MO Letters and even some obscure Family DFO Heaven's Library fiction books. It’s all some very derivative and utterly unoriginal material, the stuff that the McKays churn out.

I guess that they reckoned that nobody would ever seriously check up on them, and that most people outside of cults do not seek out and read cult literatures like the Heaven’s Library Blood and Freedom books anyway.

Now I shall present the results of my research to the world.

There are three major points that I will bring out, three major areas of contention that I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to in as brief a space as possible. This, my work, may be of service to followers of the JCs and interested researchers; hopefully I can present some good leads for others to follow up on with respect to the lack of originality on display in a perusal of the McKay’s books. These tomes are just replete with instances of mimicking of others’ words and ideas.

The first thing I’ll bring up has to do with my findings from the Family publication called the Book of Remembrance (Volumes One and Two) and the inconsistencies I’ve found in comparing the timelines of the COG history of activity in Australia, next to DM’s telling of his own history in Australia and his involvement in the COG there.

Next, I’ll tell of the Survivors series that the McKays collaborated on, and how those books appear to be directly lifted from a series published by The Family's "Heaven's Library" DFO line of books, which are collectively called the "Blood and Freedom series" as well as of course the Left Behind novel. These Blood and Freedom titles include Blood and Freedom, Hellbreak, and Hearts of Steel. As well, there are a lot of similarities in DM's work to an Aurora Production book entitled In Armageddons' Wake.

Last, I’d like to briefly tell of the evidence I’ve found showing how a great deal of the JC teachings are lifted straight out of the MO Letters, titles and all. Again, this just represents yet more evidence of the appropriation of words and ideas from MO and the Children of God/Family, on the part of McKay and his consort.

Points one and three are not really new news to those who intimately know the JCs and their history. But point two (about Blood and Freedom/In Armageddon's Wake) is, I am confident in saying, a new revelation of some examples of DM’s ripping off other people's work, a new revelation that has never been brought to light before as far as I am aware.

Space in will not permit my providing an interlinear comparison of the MO Letters side-by-side with the McKays’ Jesus Christians Teachings here or in RR’s forum, nor can I provide such a detailed comparison of the Blood and Freedom books with the Survivors books. This is not the venue for such an interlinear presentation, nor have I the resources or know-how to create a website of my own to present these findings. But, I have procured copies of the Blood and Freedom series, as well as of the Family’s Book of Remembrance, and can make a very, very strong case demonstrating the McKays’ blatant appropriation of ideas; I can also pretty well prove that almost everything he has stated in public with respect to his biography and background is fictional. And that means everything.

DM can be demonstrated as a fraud with respect to his account of his supposed COG days, which I shall now demonstrate to be largely fictitious, taking into consideration of course the fact that COG did not keep records. There are so many holes in DM’s story, in the time lines, that when one takes a closer look that the only conclusion that one can logically come up with is that DM is pretty much lying about it all, 98% anyway.

If one studies an old COG publication called the Book of Remembrance (a copy of which I happen to have, and both volumes too) and knows what DM has said about himself, one will quickly find many inconsistencies in terms of the who, what, when, where, and why of what the COG were up to in Australia circa 1975.

I suggest interested researchers look into the Book of Remembrance in checking up on McKay’s story, esp. the names of the early Australian pioneers. I have copies of both volumes here and wish I still had my scanner, or I’d show you myself.

However, it's very difficult to conclusively prove beyond a reasonable doubt anything about the matter one way or the other, considering the fact that the COG did not keep records, and the records that they did have, they destroyed. But, I am as close to absolutely proving it as I can reasonably be.

It was Australia in the ‘70s; no records, loose connections, inefficient communication. The 70's were vague times there. Public and private records were on cards and in manila folders.

So the truth is that technically, DM simultaneously was and wasn't a COG Shepherd. He was living too far from anyone else who was part of the COG at the time. He claimed 6 members -- his family -- and they (COG leadership) couldn't dispute that. Based on this claim -- 6 members -- he received the leadership material regularly for at least a decade and probably well beyond a decade. This is how he churned out all that COG-like material.

The important thing is NOT whether he was or wasn't officially a shepherd. Because like I said, he both was and he wasn’t, and the only followers he had at first were his own wife and kids.

The important thing to understand is that he learned how to run a cult from the Family DFO material he kept receiving.

To me, it's a lot like asking if a woman is pregnant: either she is or she is not, and "Well, yes and no" means no.

David McKay wanted to be around the COG/Family to learn from them and obtain literatures that he could use in order to find materials to present as his own, and receive instruction on how to operate his own cult, but never had any intention of subjecting himself to the rules and strictures of the Family’s structure; he would never submit himself to anybody’s authority and would never make a good cult member, no, he simply leeched on to them for a while and used what he took from the Family in order to organize and run the group that eventually came to be known as the Jesus Christians.

In other words, just as the COG/Family were doing “Invading the Churches” stuff in order to gain credibility, respectability, and resources from established churches and denominations, in like manner, DM basically “Invaded the Family” to do the same for himself in an effort to form his own group. He turned the Family’s modus operandi, back on the Family, and later "Invaded the Quakers," once the Family cut him off from the DFO materials. I must admit, it was a clever move on his part.

To continue: prior to 1978, the COG Shepherds were all APPOINTED to their respective positions by the next-higher person on The Chain.

After Feb. 18, 1978, everybody in The Chain was fired (Berg supposedly felt that the existing leadership was dictatorial and abusive) and the new Shepherds were ELECTED in at the colony level by local colony members.

RNR is the "COG ruling" that DM took advantage of in order to "Shepherd" his own "colony." They (COG members at the time) were all being instructed to tell the world that the COG was disbanding and that everybody was going their separate ways.

Of course that was not true, and was an attempt to elude law enforcement and confuse "The System."

In reality, they did really not disband, they merely reorganized in a more sophisticated manner and were underground for a while. But not all members knew this, some really were led to believe that the COG had broken up; the supposed disbanding was also a pretext for purging the group of certain members, but getting them to leave on peaceful terms with no potential conflict.

The Family was highly secretive in those days, and they still are; just like DM is paranoid to this day, and rightly so. We’re onto him like glue.

There were two ways in which somebody could have been a COG Shepherd in the mid-to-late seventies: by appointment, or else being voted into that position by the local colony.

In other words, there were no self-appointed Shepherds. Yet, DM claims to have done just that.

He says that he appointed himself Shepherd of his own colony, and it was really just him and his wife and kids.

See what I am saying?

For that matter, RNR took place in 1978. DM (according to the story he's always stuck to) would have been out of the COG by '76, the year when the FF-ing was being introduced.

I have uncovered inconsistency after inconsistency in DM's story. There are lots and lots, and lots, of holes in it.

1978 was also the year in which they stopped calling themselves the COG (because they wanted the world to think that they had disbanded) and adopted the name, The Family of Love, which was shortened to The Family in '82.

This was all the direct result of the RNR.

But, it is possible that DM was one of the Shepherds who got fired, and then simply took his family out and continued as if he was not fired. But this would contradict the story of how they left because of the FFing.

Further, we know DM for a fact to have been in the possession of DFO (Disciples and Friends Only) Family literature as recently as 1991 (probably well beyond), and that some of that DFO material was published in the Deakin student newspaper (called The Planet) in that same year.

There was a dispute about him using the material.

This is something I still want to follow up on, to get hold of copies of the old Planet newspapers. Apparently, McKay was dismissed from the newspaper, but won a $4,000 payment from them.

There was also an article written about David in the Murdoch University newspaper about the matter, which he was awarded $4,000 in compensation for.

It is one of these jobs that is going to cost a lot of money to travel to the Universities, search the libraries, speak to the staff, etc. Unfortunately, the newspapers are not online.

In relation to that 1990's period, David also published the Baby Books and the Nappy Chappies distributed them. They even called themselves children of God, but with a little c and said they were a remnant of the Children of God.

See the big picture now? He's twisting the truth about his involvement in the COG; he’s lying through his teeth!

And he thought that we were so stupid and would never figure all of these things out!

Now on to the matter of the fiction books: Blood and Freedom and Hellbreak were both published by Heaven’s Library in 1999, followed by Hearts of Steel in 2000. McKay’s Survivors was released in 2002.

From the back cover of Blood and Freedom:

Beneath the organized exterior…chaos.

Behind the controlled front…rebellion.

Beyond the surface of everyday life…a spiritual weapon that threatens the destruction of the New World Order.

In this Apocalyptic world of the future, and in a time known as the Great Tribulation, seven young people are thrown together in a series of cataclysmic events that will change the world around them forever.

A link to a scan of the back cover of Survivors is here:


From the back cover of Hellbreak:

There are those who will never give in. There are those who will laugh in the face of death and Big Brother. There are those who so cherish their faith that they're willing to risk everything for its preservation.

The stakes are rising. The flames are licking higher and higher. As the heroes of "Blood and Freedom" continue their quest for freedom, the unseen powers will do anything to see them silenced—even pitting them against the horrors of Hell itself.

Like I said before, this is not the venue to get into an interlinear, line-by-line demonstration of the similarities between the Blood and Freedom books and the Survivors books (that would take a whole website in itself to do, in order to bring out more fully the salient points), but there are many similarities, too many to be coincidental. Survivors and its sequel are basically warmed-over and de-sexualized (for example, Chapter 12 of Hellbreak is entitled “Sex With a Purpose” and Chapter Three of Blood and Freedom is entitled “About Sex and Prophecy”) remakes of the Blood and Freedom and Left Behind books.

Blood and Freedom is basically about a group of seven youth who are on the run from Big Brother (Antichrist) in the New World Order, post-apocalyptic world. It's the same old hackneyed stuff as what DM put out a couple years later. Blah blah blah.

McKay was careful to cite Left Behind as the source of his inspiration for Survivors, but was not so careful as to credit Blood and Freedom, after which Survivors is mirrored to a mighty degree as well. The Survivors novels are simply pretty much of a cross between Blood and Freedom and Left Behind.

McKay must have thought to himself, “What’s the Family gonna do, sue me?”

After all, it’s not as if one can simply find the Blood and Freedom books as easily as one can find a copy of Survivors on or by going to the local bookstore or some such thing. These (Blood and Freedom series) were Family DFO books of which (as far as I know) one edition was printed and as such were had through underground channels, and were intended for reading by Family “Disciples and Friends Only.”

I am in the possession of actual copies of these Heaven’s Library books and can absolutely verify what I am describing to you. The similarities, the parallels between these and McKay’s books are uncanny. It is obvious that the McKays appropriated a lot of material for Survivors and Listening from these books. Theme, plot, content, it’s all there, mostly exactly the same, and it’s so glaringly obvious.

Basically, McKay and his consort appear to have taken the "Heaven's Library" DFO fiction books called the Blood and Freedom series, but gave them more of a strong LaHaye/Jenkins Left Behind-ish overtone, David inserted himself and their cult into the plot as the main characters, and the Survivors books are the result; they are what the McKays have to show for their efforts toward the mimicking of other persons’ and groups’ work i.e Blood and Freedom and Left Behind.

Survivors is not in my opinion so much a response to the Left Behind series as it is a response to the much lesser-known and obscure Blood and Freedom series, that was published as DFO material from Heaven’s Library, the Family’s publishing wing. Survivors and its sequel more closely resemble Blood and Freedom in content, plot, theme, etc. than that of Left Behind in my opinion.

These particular two books of theirs (Survivors and Listening) are thoroughly unoriginal and again, utterly derivative works.

DM was obviously somehow or other getting his hands on DFO material well beyond ’91.

The Blood and Freedom books have no ISBN numbers. One edition, limited circulation, WS/DFO material. Rare, hard to find.

Also there's At the Edge of Time which is credited thus, "As Told by John Steinbeck." This one's DFO "Heaven's Library" book too, also from 1999, and again, no ISBN. This one is a sci-fi themed book about time travel and the back cover reads:

It was a vision that threatened to drive Lenny insane.

It was a decision that threatened to rip Gypsy's heart in two.

It was a search that would leave Don empty and dissatisfied.

It was a dream that would enslave Will's heart.

On the game board of their lives, and of the world's future, these four and their counterculture friends found themselves polarized to opposing forces--forces that would soon be involved in a life-and-death struggle for the future of all mankind.

However, there also is a book from Aurora Production (The Family's line of products which are mainly for children) that also bears a very strong similarity to the McKays' fiction works.

It is called In Armageddon's Wake (ISBN 3-905332-61-2) by "Lee White," published in 1999, and it can be ordered here; easy to obtain and probably it'd be worth looking into in more detail:


The full catalog of Aurora Production stuff is here:


From the back cover of In Armageddon's Wake:

The Millennium Bug has come and gone. There have been wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes. The New World Order with its Antichrist leader has risen ... and fallen. Apocalyptic devastation has rained down upon all the world. Now it's time to start putting it back together again.

Interested researchers might want to take a closer look at all of the above-mentioned texts (Blood and Freedom series, In Armageddon's Wake, At the Edge of Time) as well as at the other Aurora Production books.

In Armageddon’s Wake
is available at Activated Magazine Online.


More books online here:


McKay's derivative works of fiction (and for that matter, the non-fiction stuff too, like Armageddon for Beginners) have the fingerprints of Heaven's Library/Aurora Production books, as well as the Left Behind genre, all over them.

I wonder how McKay was getting material through WS channels?



As well, it would take a lot of time and space to demonstrate the similarities between the MO Letters and the JC teachings, but upon close examination there are many close similarities between the two sets of works, and in many instances they are virtually identical to one another, titles and all. Do the research as I have and see. It’s not that hard, that part of it, just time-consuming.

It took some time, however, for me to find the Books of Remembrance and the Blood and Freedom series. Especially the Blood and Freedom series; those are rare books. But what these texts contain absolutely exposes the McKays as the frauds and liars that they are.

Everything I have related tonight represents but a fraction of the damning information that we have collected on the McKays and their group. Discretion will not permit me to fully disclose everything, in terms of all of the evidence that has been collected against them. This eight-page Word document reflects just a small portion of the totality of the information and evidence we have, most of which is not suitable for public disclosure.

I think McKay is very disappointed he didn't become a major player.

The best that he and his editor can do is to steal other people's words and ideas.

David, Cherry, you couldn't conceal all of this forever.

It's sad, and so obvious now.

You two are just pathetic.

So Happy New Year to you, David and Cherry. We will continue to track you and monitor your group for all the days of your lives.

"The Bigger the Lie, the More the People will Believe it" - Adolf Hitler

"He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future." -George Orwell

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2009 12:46AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: January 04, 2009 10:12PM

Dear Zeusor,

I thank you in much gratitude, for all the work you have put into this latest posting!

May God bless you for it...



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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 05, 2009 07:44AM

You are welcome, Mal.

May God bless you and yours as well.

Peace be with you,


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: January 13, 2009 12:48AM

Dear Zeusor,

Davids' pitiable attempt to run the show clandestinely while using Cherry's name as a pseudonym (and hence better avoid debate of his lack of credentials) is yet another mark of the mans' criminal insanity.....and he has to rely on still another cult for his legal dirty work...."birds of a feather", you might say!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 13, 2009 02:58AM

Hi Mal:

What David is doing is a technique called "gaslighting".


The JCs (and especially David in particular, he's a damn gaslighting mad genius) will attempt to constantly mentally "gaslight" whoever they are dialoging with, and now they are starting to trade identities in order to sort of throw off their critics. This newer thing of DM posting as this person or that person (Cherry, Casey, Joe, whoever) is an example of him gaslighting their forum. Roland posts as Sue, and vice-versa, and so on, and you never know whose words you are really reading over there.

They will in conversation constantly tell you what you are thinking and feeling, and try and undermine your own sense of your identity try and get you to not trust in your own perceptions and judgment. They'll tell you what is in your heart, they'll rewrite history and project their behavior onto you whether what they say has any real validity at all, and it has a sickening cumulative effect of severely unbalancing and destabilizing the mind of the person being subjected to the McKay "gaslighting" techniques for any period of time.

The main thing that I have learned is to avoid direct conversational exchange with them, any of them, and to anybody else I would really strongly recommend against trying to have a discussion of any kind with anybody in that group. It's pointless, IMO, and will only make you crazy (so to speak). They will totally gaslight your mind if you're nor wise to what's going on.

Best IMO to stay on this side of the tracks, so to speak, and not go into their neighborhood anymore.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2009 03:00AM by zeuszor.

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