Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: January 29, 2009 01:37AM

Dear Zeusor,

I really enjoy the quality of your postings...yes, as Tolstoy said, (...the Jesus Christians purposely, quote whoever is both well-known (thus seeking fame for themselves by false association) and who also happens to be well and truly dead, as it is not then possible for those people, such as Tolstoy to adamantly disavow any connection with the JesusChristians as he would were he perhaps I'll just take this opportunity to do it for him..."Moy Bog! Mocha ot Devida" ..(My God! Piss off.. David!!)....)

As you note on the preceding page, Zeusor,

Here's a couple from their beloved Leo Tolstoy, who they seem to like to hold up as an honorary Jesus Christian, owing to his literalistic interpretation of Jesus' teachings, especially as contained in the Beatitudes:

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life".

A related Tolstoy quote is:

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

The mind boggles at the "cognitive diffidence" that is required to "over-ride" the blatant and contradictory idiocy of McKay ....

Where is the "David Lowe" fixation, these days......the obsession that this "David Lowe" character was the central player, behind the increasingly "organized opposition" to the onward march of the JesusChristians, goose-stepping down history, and irrevocably imposing Christian facism on an unworthy and ungrateful world.....(David is capable of inanely imagining of the existence of our very own "fearless leader", as he is subconsciously aware that this is the very role that he plays within the JesusChristians....he is simply projecting then what he knows of himself onto a contrived enemy...).....

It was such a blindly stupid accusation(among a number of others) to make at the time....(really only pointing out for the world to see, the considerable distance David has to travel these days, to occasionally alight upon reality)....yet the the other members of the JesusChristians were utterly obliged to credit David for his paranoid "insight" dared question him, no matter how moronic he became!....sycophancy so comical it borders on the hilarious.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 01:39AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 29, 2009 04:22AM

Why, thank you for that compliment sir; I enjoy reading your posts as well.

That few months I took off from the boards proved to be a healthy respite.

I am feeling much better now then I was.

My main mistake, the way I see it now, was in trying to dialog with them in their forum.

In retrospect, that was a really bad idea.

I unwittingly took a step into McKay's House of Gaslight and it temporarily drove me batty.

Basically, they "gaslighted" me in the frequent exchanges we used to have over at welikejesus and it drove me close to the edge of madness, in a manner similar to what happened to Jon Ronson (Kidneys For Jesus), when DM constantly was accusing Ronson, of accusing him of trying to weasel out of donating a kidney until Ronson reported that he started to go crazy and thought to himself, "I know I didn't accuse Dave of that, but maybe I have accused Dave of that."

DM gaslighted Ronson, as DM tries to gaslight everybody he comes into contact with; Ronson made the mistake, as I did, of letting DM get into his head.

That's when he started to intensely resent Dave and decided, "I really don't like him."

That's why I won't dialog with any of them anymore, and strongly advise anybody else frpm trying that, unless you have a very strong sense of yourself. Even then, I still think that it'd be a very bad idea.

If I may expand on my previous post:

Many times people join such groups as the JCs at some vulnerable time in their lives, when they are in the midst of some personal crisis or a transitional period.

This is a big factor in determining whether or not a given person is vulnerable to falling prey to some manipulative leader and group, one must admit.

That there are also a myriad of other factors in determining a given person's situational vulnerability is apparent as well.

Most (not all, but most) people who join the Jesus Christians in their post-1998, present-day incarnation (to put a fine point on it) seem to have one or more of the following characteristics in common:

They for the most part seem to be people in their late teens or twenties who are:

1) Gullible and/or naive,

2) Unintelligent and/or uneducated,

3) Persons with mental problems, emotional issues, or else persons who are simply vain and arrogant.

These are evidenced from person to person through some combination of the above characteristics.

It seems to me like there are a lot of persons with borderline/narcissistic features and traits who presently a part of the Jesus Christians' group.

Maybe even it is quite likely the case there are a few who have developed the full-blown narcissistic personality disorder, as is obviously (it's obvious to me, anyway) the case for Mr. McKay himself.

Also, I believe that there has got to be something going on with McKay at the neurological level that compels him to behave in such a manner.

My educated guess is either low-level Asperger's or PDD-NOS.

In my considered opinion, DM as well is a full-blown NPD case for certain; DM is, to put it in different terms (from my non-professional but modestly well-read and experienced perspective) an enneagram personality type three, level ten, a true "Unhealthy Three," a pathologically destructive, malignant narcissist.

Or to put it in lay terms if you prefer, DM is an evil SOB.

DM these days seems to generally only attract people with similar "anger management" issues or who are pissed off with their parents, as Mr. McKay was with his.

They (the people who join his group these days) seem like they are are usually rebellious, anti-authoritarian, naive kids who are looking for a strong father-figure type, for the most part.

That's what makes the present-day situation with the Jesus Christians so sad, and DM so dangerous, in my opinion.

In the last several years, he generally seems to target and prey upon other people's kids.

But then, he really always did, didn't he?

It's true that a lot of the Jesus Christians (as well as recruits/members of other high-control abusive groups) are idealistic yet naive, intelligent yet situationally vulnerable, with high moral standards and healthy respect for authority yet easily manipulated because of emotional problems, etc.; it's some combination of positive and negative, healthy and unhealthy attributes within a specific person that would lead to their becoming ensnared in Mr. McKay's microcosmic world, the McKay Hall of Mirrors in David's Not-So-Funhouse, or in any such group for that matter.

It's not because a parent did something wrong that led to their child joining such a group; more often then not, it's because the parent did something right. That's why I find the phenomenon so insidious. Mr. McKay lures these kids in, manipulates and traps them in his group by using the very virtues that their parents taught them in the first place: high moral standards, respect for the Bible, respect for authority, loyalty, etc, but he twists and perverts those virtues along the way in an attempt make these kids into younger versions of himself.

It comes down to a persona's situational vulnerability, and not underestimating the power of group pressure, when it comes to understanding these kinds of groups and the people that join them, in my opinion.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 04:29AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 29, 2009 04:49AM

In a cult, abusive organization, or abusive relationship it does not matter if the information presented is true. If it is negative about the group or any member of the group, then you cannot say it. Usually such negative information will be will be labeled as slander, and if one persists in speaking it or writing it one can be disciplined severely, ultimately with expulsion from the group, or, if one is an outsider speaking ill about or being at all critical of the group, one can be demonized, dehumanized, poked fun at, humiliated, or what have you.

Careful study of the articles posted on the Jesus Christians' web site, as well as some of the newer articles being published via their forum, will reveal a lot of talk about their mentality; they all say something to the effect of, "allegiance to one another," support(ing) one another," work(ing) together," and "obey(ing) the rules." Mr. McKay (very much like Mr. Ross' speech to his class, from The Wave)...

"Now, through hard work and allegiance to one another you will learn faster and accomplish more. But only if you support one another, and only if you work together and obey the rules you can ensure the success of The Wave."

...does not quite write, "We must support one another regardless of what any of us does," but that could easily be implied from what he does write. I see this theme over and over again in the Jesus Christians teachings. Here's a quote from Mr. McKay's The Pizza Parable, an interesting parable of unity vs. individuality (since a pizza is one, yet several pieces):

All who wish to develop into true leaders must first learn how to follow, and to wait patiently for the right time to step out.

"Jesus Christians uber alles..."

In cult groups like the Jesus Christians it is essential to live in "unity" with the other members, and especially with the leader(s). It is a twisted interpretation of Psalm 133:1-3 that is the "glue" that will hold such a group together in most cases. It is taught that if the group does not live together in unity, then The Lord will not bless the group.

In practice, however, the "unity" that is promoted in cult groups such as the Jesus Christians is really "uniformity." Members must believe alike, think alike, talk alike, (sound familiar, Davelgangers?) and often even look alike. Divergences from even minor points of doctrine and practice are usually not allowed. When it is allowed, those who think differently are not permitted to express their differences publicly. If they do, there are consequences to pay. For the Jesus Christians, aren't those consequences called "grievance meetings?"

Leaders of cults and authoritarian groups (again, the Jesus Christians are a typical example of this) do not recognize that there can be unity without uniformity.

Mr. McKay is clever enough to use certain members (Casey, Joe, Fran) as his positive example, his poster boys, his doppelgangers. First, this is probably the first time in Casey's (to use him as a specific example) life that-at least, in his memory-he has been used as a positive role model. This must feel very good to Casey, and he doubtless is anxious to receive Mr. McKay's approval again and again. He knows that in order to get Mr. McKay's approval again, he must continue to comply with Mr. McKay's coercions, which are disguised as "loving suggestions" or some such.

Mr. McKay's pointing to Casey (and to a lesser degree Fran and Joe) as the example of a "good disciple" has a powerful effect on the rest of the Jesus Christians. It tells them that if Casey can do this, certainly they can-and they'd better-perform better than Casey, because no one wants to look worse than Casey does.

As human beings we (or at least, most of us) need to be in relationship to other people. We need others as friends, confidants, lovers, etc. to offer us affirmation, solace, correction, fellowship, etc.

In normal, healthy relationships, however, we also need time and space for ourselves occasionally so we can obtain rest and spend time in reflection. We will on occasion voluntarily give up our personal agenda on occasion to meet an emergency, whether it concerns our family, out community, or our nation. But once the emergency has passed we go back to our normal lives again.

In abusive group like the Jesus Christians this personal agenda is seldom if ever granted; the member is almost always, if not always, giving up his own right to privacy and the pursuit of his own goals in order to pursue the goals of the group and to submit to the agenda of his authority.

Finally, the process of group building, when it becomes abusive, creates a system that is mutually addictive to both founder(s) and followers. The followers need the founder/leader/Divine Authority to make them feel that they are realizing the proffered goal; the founder/leader/Divine Authority needs his followers (some call them the leader's "narcissistic supply") to make him feel successful, powerful, and truly enlightened.

At one point in The Wave, speaking about his class's renewed order, which is coming about as a result of the new "game" that they are playing, Mr. Ross states: "It's as if they wanted to be disciplined."

This is a profound statement, in my opinion.

I believe that Mr. Ross is in fact correct, that most teenagers wants at least some discipline. They may not always be consciously aware that they want it, and they certainly won't tell their parents that they want discipline, but without it they often feel insecure, lacking direction.

It is a truism that to be in one's teens and early twenties is a most difficult period of life; young people, such as the young people Mr. and Mrs. McKay seem to target, are in a major transition period of life from childhood to adulthood. They are beginning to take on or be given greater responsibility over their own lives, making decisions for themselves that some authority-parents, teachers, etc.-formerly made for them. This can be either a heady experience or an unsettling one, often both at the same time. If some one older (like Mr. McKay) comes along and offers guidance, even in the form of discipline,this can be experienced as relief from the pressure of decision-making.

Later on in the film, Mr. Ross states, "It's amazing how much they like you when you make decisions for them."

This to me is another profound statement, and it is a corollary of the first statement ("It's as if they wanted to be disciplined.")

Adolescence and early adulthood is a notoriously difficult period of life. It is a transition from childhood to adulthood, with young people wanting and being able to make more decisions for themselves. Decisions that an authority (teacher, parent, etc.) formerly made for them they are now having to make for themselves. And they are having to think about their futures: what career should they pursue? What do they want to look for in a potential mate? What do they believe about the meaning of life? This can be a bit unsettling, even scary, for a lot of young people. If somebody like Mr. and Mrs. McKay come along and offers "assistance" in the form of quick and easy "answers" to these questions (in the form of "forsaking all"), or even to make some or most of those decisions for them, then this can be experienced as a major relief.

I believe that this is how and why the McKays generally only succeed in enticing people to join the Jesus Christians, when the potential recruits are barely adults.

Further, I would not be at all surprised if McKay at some point watched The Wave when designing his cult, or had at least read of Ron Jones and The Third Wave experiment. McKay seems to be a very eclectic cult leader indeed.

And now, my quote of the day:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
C.S. Lewis

C.S. Lewis wrote a lot of good things, did he not?

I pray that the Jesus Christians will read and thoughtfully consider that which I have written.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 04:53AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 29, 2009 05:08AM

Sorry for three in a row, it's just that there's a lot that I'd like to express and so try and break my thoughts down into "bite-sized" chunks.

More of my thoughts:

There has been no hint that Mr. and Mrs. McKay actually need such doppelgangers as Casey, Fran, Joe, etc. as their spokespersons, but, by all appearances, as far as they are concerned that doesn't matter. They do not want to wait for another actual incidence of persecution to occur, they want to prevent further threats to his security from arising. Groups like the Jesus Christians actually thrive off of perceived persecution.

These three remind me of that kid Robert in The Wave, who volunteers to be Mr. Ross' bodyguard. Robert starts to dress like Mr. Ross, talk like Mr. Ross, follow Mr. Ross around, etc.

Mr. McKay and the Jesus Christians have made Casey (again, using him as a particular example) feel good about himself, probably for the first time in his life, and Casey wants to do everything he can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose the Jesus Christians and hurt the credibility of the man and group that have given him his new-found improved self-image.

Casey's is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual.

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

Casey's is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals. It is especially heinous when followed in the name of God.

Casey (and all of the Jesus Christians for that matter) needs to learn that his importance and worth as a person does not depend on any role or function that he fills in a group-his value (and that of all people) rests in the fact that he is a human being. One is not more valuable because one possesses a high IQ, has forsaken all to follow Jesus, has many possessions, lives in a three-story mansion, or lives on a farm in Kenya.

After all, it is the Jesus Christians that make Casey feel so good about himself-so self-confident and worthwhile, probably for the first time in his life. He may believe that he has no options outside of the group, and that is not a happy prospect for him.

So rather than receive the message, he attacks the messenger through use of the ad hominem attack.

All of them do. After a certain point it seems that they are unable to refute the logical, objective arguments put to them and so he does what people often do in such a situation: they attacks the Jesus Christians' critics personally. If one party to a dispute can discredit the other party in some way, then it is easier to to discredit that person's arguments. This is what the Jesus Christians engage in time after time, argument for the sake of argument, and it is quite a pedantic and tiresome tactic.

Excerpted from Casey's testimony, which is posted the Jesus Christians' web page:


I consider myself very lucky to have found people who are so genuinely committed to following God. I feel like my life has meaning now; that what I am doing will count for something even after I die. It is not the group that gives me this feeling, but rather, it is my commitment to trying to work in love with others and obey Jesus that does it.

This leads me to ask a series of questions:

Is it possible to work in love and obey Jesus and NOT be a member of their group?

Can one follow Jesus as an individual?

If Casey's fulfillment is derived from his relationship with Jesus and inner life as an individual, then why does it bother him so when outsiders to the group criticize his group or the leaders of it? Why lash out against them so vociferously?

Why does he equate criticism of the Jesus Christians and/or Mr. and Mrs. McKay with supporting the work of the Devil?

In practice, it looks a lot like he IS deriving his sense of self-worth as an individual from his involvement with his group.

Casey offers a voluntary testimonial to how wonderful the Jesus Christians are--for the first time in his life he feels special and has been given meaning and purpose. This is no doubt true, which is precisely what makes his statement so sad.

There is a potential danger with public testimonials, such as Casey's or any of the others found at the Jesus Christians site. If the testimony is to a person or a human organization (as in this case since, after all, the Jesus Christians is a human organization which is led by humans and not by God Himself) there is the possibility that the person or organization may change in time from good to bad. For example, teaching discipline to students or to one's own children is essentially good, and getting them to articulate answers to spoken questions may facilitate learning. But discipline may mutate into abuse, if, for example, the teacher or parent or (whoever the leader may be) instead of hitting his desk with the dowel, so to speak, hits a student with a dowel or a whip. At this point, since Casey and the rest have made public statements praising the Jesus Christians community (just as the character of Robert in the short film made a public statement praising The Wave) it will be much harder for him to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and Robert/Casey/Mrs. McKay/Fran/Joe/Sue/whoever will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the student/Jesus Christian who was hit or otherwise mistreated.

This is very much like what happens with the woman who is physically abused by her husband. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.

Public testimonies to God or abstract principles like love or patriotism do not carry the same potentiality for negative consequences, for the simple reason that God and abstract principles do not change from good to bad, from healthy to unhealthy.

Virtually any conversion experience will feel similar on the level of emotions, whether the conversion is to Christ, Mohammed, Marx, David McKay, or Elvis.

That does not mean all conversions are the same, just that they feel the same.

And doubtless we'll shortly be hearing the Jesus Christians cry "slander" as a response to my recent posts on the topic of Casey/Joe/Sue/etc. and the source(s) from which they derive thier self esteem, and their sense of personal validation. Any criticism of any of them will be automatically be interpreted as "slander" and/or "persecution" as we all well know.

I would encourage the JCs to try and remain objective and rational in reflecting on the concepts that I have introduced to the discussion.

Please allow me to close with a song; watch this all the way through to get the full effect:


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 05:20AM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: January 30, 2009 02:08AM

Lately I have been studying more closely the JCs use of "empowerment charts" and "Mental Graphs" in order to gain a better understanding of the role that such graphs and charts play in the day-to-day lives of the JCs, and how also such charts serve toward keeping the individual JCs motivated, also I am looking at this in terms of understanding them as mechanisms of control and manipulation.

Can anybody please help me to gain an understanding of what these exercises represent, by explaining a bit of why the JCs seem to have an obsession with graphs and charts and such, and exactly what they are trying to accomplish by recording everything in such minute detail?

All input and insights are much appreciated.

This is all contained in the JC Restricted Teachings Index, which hold what seems to be the inner core of JC doctrine and practice, the more "hard-core" stuff:


Would anybody be inclined to help shed some light on this material, please?

Some examples of mentions of these things can be found in various JC teachings, such as:


You may also be able to lead a person, step by step, away from a negative motivation, toward a more positive one. Suppose someone is lazy about doing household chores. Rather than condemn the laziness, you could turn the chores into a game, with some kind of a reward. Such a positive motivation may be all that is needed to overcome the laziness. You have achieved a change through "inspiration" rather than "condemnation". Obviously, we don't want people to be motivated by greed; but in most cases the tiny prizes that we offer would be little more than catalysts, to help people do what they really want to do, and that is to grow spiritually.

We use the empowerment charts to do much the same thing for ourselves, turning progress into points that we can add up on a chart. But even something as simple as an empowerment chart needs a lot of fine tuning, and it is the job of good leaders to experiment with such things until we find a way that gets the desired effect without bringing damaging side effects. We must encourage them not to make the goals too hard, nor too easy. We must encourage them not to make the rewards too big or too small. And we must remind them to constantly re-assess what is happening, to be sure that they are achieving the desired spiritual goals, rather than being sidetracked into pointless production goals.

In conclusion, I would ask you to examine yourself, and those whom you lead, to see if you are aware of your weak spots and the weak spots that threaten your followers. And if you are aware of them, I would ask you whether you are taking actions to motivate changes, and if you are assessing your progress, to see if your actions are having the desired effect. If we keep working on these two aspects of management -- anticipation and motivation -- overall spiritual growth will eventually result.

and also:


It is important for us to understand how our momentary activities fit into a bigger picture, if we want to be fully human and fully alive; and yet I see signs that people in our community are happy to turn off their minds and operate as unthinking drones. Because we as a community have developed so many different ways of measuring progress, it is relatively easy for a good leader to spot when someone has turned off spiritually and mentally. They simply fail to use the measuring devices which surround them.

Ten minutes after a mile run has finished, many participants cannot tell you what their finish time was, much less what place they finished in, whether it was an improvement over the previous week, a 90% effort or a PB, or whether their pacing was consistent from lap to lap. Why? Because throughout the run, their mind was turned off. They were mentally (and perhaps spiritually) dead... going through robotic motions for the sake of the Jesus Christians system, but with little or no interest in their own personal progress.

Some members distribute tracts in much the same way. They have little interest in how many they are getting out, how long they have been out there doing it, or how much they have received in donations. Why? Same reason. They are brain-dead (and perhaps spiritually dead) to what they are doing. What matters is that they mark time until they can return to the base for a meal, a shower, a sleep, or whatever, and then start the same cycle all over again the next day. Progress doesn't have much to do with it.

Halfway through the week, if you were to ask the average member of a team how they are doing in the lit comp for that week, they probably wouldn't be able to tell you. Once again, all our efforts to establish a system for measuring progress have been wasted, because they are not really interested in making progress. What matters is only that they get by... that they "look busy" and stay out of trouble from day to day.

The purpose of all of our graphs, charts, budgets, schedules, and job lists is so that you can "get the vision" quickly, by being able to picture your progress in terms of charts, graphs or statistics, whether in your mind or graphically displayed on a wall. And once you succeed in getting this mental picture, it should help to spur you on. It becomes a kind of dynamic system of personal accountability. You will push yourself a bit harder if you sense that you are falling behind, because you do not want to fall behind. And you will push yourself in a different way, through the enthusiasm that comes when you know you are ahead of schedule.

It may be understandable that some people never have bothered to learn the scoring system or other rules for games like '500', which we have played almost daily for many years (and so they ask someone else, "Who bids first?" or "How much is misere worth again?"). After all, it's only a game.

And it may be understandable that some people never know from week to week what their handicap is on the chess chart (even though we have expressly taught that chess is a means to developing greater mental discipline). But sadly, the people who are indifferent in such little things are usually the same ones who are indifferent in bigger things. They fail to grow spiritually because they have not learned to think deeply enough to even memorise how much a bid of seven hearts is worth in '500'.

Statistics, graphs and game rules are a complete waste of time unless someone can interpret, visualise, or memorise them and carry that information around with them in their brain. It should not always need to be the same two or three people who answer the question: "Is seven clubs worth more than seven diamonds?" or "How fast did I run?" We have all been around long enough that we should, for example, be able to visualise the little graph that tells you the value of each bid in 500. And we should all know instantly what lap average we would need in order to equal our PB in a two-mile run. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that there are some of us who don't even know how many laps there are in a two mile run!

But these are trivial things... obviously. How much more important it must be for us to know how we are going when distributing tracts, i.e. how far ahead of (or behind) the quota we are for the day or for the week, and whether our spending (and income) is on target for the week's budget. (How many of us even know how much it takes to cover the normal expenditure for your team in one week?) And then there are spiritual issues on each of our empowerment charts too.

Rols and Sue have stayed motivated over the years through many such charts and graphs, including one that shows the population of every town in England, and how many tracts they would need to get out in each town in order to cover 2% of that town's population. That's a perfect example of how all of these charts should work in the day to day grind.

Living by faith does not mean turning your mind off and becoming a zombie. In fact, it means just the opposite. It means learning to discipline every moment of our lives, in order to suck the marrow out of life. Living life to the full means living each day with a mental graph of how short life is, and a mental job list about all that we hope to accomplish with our life before it is finished. I read somewhere that "Life only begins when we become aware of how soon it could end." Very true!

These mental graphs I have been talking about (whether on a trivial level or on an eternal level) all go into making us uniquely human. No animals apart from humans can do it, i.e. no other animal can picture their progress in their minds. But if we don't use this God-given ability, we may as well be slugs sliding across the footpath on our unthinking journey to death.

We have given people a rough outline of what they can do through empowerment charts. But we have left you to make it work. It won't work if you use it like people have used so many other group disciplines that we have provided for you to use to measure your progress. If you merely tally up points periodically because that is what you are supposed to be doing, the chart itself will be a waste of your time. It is nothing more than a thermometer stuck into a dead (or dying) corpse once a day to record its temperature, and even then the temperature will be meaningless if you don't compare it with the previous day's temperature, interpret those comparisons, and make some decisions which will affect the next day's temperature.

It's like someone confessing week after week, "I can see my problem. I am double-minded. I really need to do something about it." That becomes their report for the week. No decision. No change. Just a printout this week that pretty much matches the printout they gave last week. And even the printouts come only because it is kind of a group ritual to confess our faults and then (apparently) go back to doing the same things all over again. Such people are like the walking dead.

One form of insanity is to count pages in books or to count tissues in rolls of toilet paper. Such people are counting... there is no denying that. And "counting" is the root word in accountability. But accountability means nothing if you are not capable of analysing the statistics and taking clear and decisive action based on what you see. We become no better than the churches with their perverted grace doctrines if we simply report our sinfulness week after week without taking steps to stop sinning.

That's about it for this article. I hope some of you will be motivated to make more effort to picture (mentally) what it is that you are doing, and what progress you are making from day to day and week to week. If you keep job lists, budgets, empowerment charts, or any other forms of graphs or charts, work at adjusting them to make them meaningful and useful to you in terms of interpreting your progress.

Hopefully, when we all get this lesson down, then we will need to start devising a chart to measure our success in organising all of the new disciples we will win, because God has realised that we actually want to grow.

More examples of DM's writings on the topic of manipulation of persons/coercive persuasion techniques are to be found here. DM has studied coercive persuasion techniques and behavioral psychology, practices these techniques on people, and does what he does in a very methodical and premeditated fashion:


A couple of our fans have written to us recently to say that I am manipulative. Actually, I should take that as a compliment. With or without the evil, I have never thought of myself as a particularly skilful leader. I've never had any training, and have had to learn whatever skills I have through trial and error. (Pity the poor guinea pigs!)


Sometimes we meet friendly people on the streets who want to talk to us. We may ask them to hand out a couple of our tracts while they are waiting for us to have time for a longer conversation. The mere fact that they handed out a couple of our tracts (even if they did not read a word of what was written on it), makes them more open to hear what is written in it later, and more inclined toward accepting the truth in it.

Something similar happens when we ask people to give us a few cents in payment for the tracts that we hand out. Even if they give us one cent it has the effect of committing them to a more positive approach to what we have to say. This is one reason why it is good to encourage friends and relatives to help us out in any way that they can. Even if their help may inconvenience us at times, it is worthwhile because it forms a bond with them which will make them more open to hearing the rest of what we have to say.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 03, 2009 12:45AM

Dear Zeusor,

Thank you once more for the time and effort you have put into everything here....powerful contributions indeed....too much to reply to here, immediately however if I may remark on the extract from Casey's (somewhat dated) testimony, that you provide in your penultimate posting.....

I consider myself very lucky to have found people who are so genuinely committed to following God. I feel like my life has meaning now; that what I am doing will count for something even after I die. It is not the group that gives me this feeling, but rather, it is my commitment to trying to work in love with others and obey Jesus that does it.

Casey patently no longer "obeys Jesus" and has no biblical basis for the dishonesty he engages in.....he is simply lying to himself, trotting out what he so desperately hopes is the case, comforting himself as best he can, with jesus christian "mantras" and of course, what he really means in his testimony, is....

I consider myself very lucky to have found people who are so genuinely committed to following something that I can feel part of. I feel like my life has meaning now; that what I am doing will count for something even after I die. It is not only the group reinforcement that gives me this feeling, but rather, it is my commitment to trying to work in self justifying mindless submission with others and obey David that does it.

Casey is simply trapped now....and he possibly lacks both the intelligence and the guts to ever see him out of it!

Never mind that David McKay deliberately instructs those who have (at first) been misled to trust him, to DISOBEY the teachings of Christ (in the Beatitudes)....and that he prostitutes two or three "proof texts"....(Take no thought for food or rainment....the "living by faith" verses...hypocritically from mouth of the thieving McKay who requires mandatory distribution quotas of his followers and quantifies the income from individuals (to better manipulate those he need prompt more out through group condemnation of them for contrived inadequacies)....

Notwithstanding that he hocks the organs of the JesusChristians, making thousands out of the "cost reimbursement" he garners into accounts of his own, or his trusted cronies....

Disregarding that he (through the person of his daughter and son-in-law) owns land in Kenya, while sanctimoniously telling new disciples that "Foxes have holes, and birds have nests but the Son of Man has no where to lay his head" (i.e. They should not expect to own or lease property....while naturally the "Apostle" is at the same time, doing exactly that!)...

Taking into no consideration that David insidiously disposes those he meets to loathe disown their natural family (in order to be able to devoted to him) while he pharisaically behoves the shining example of his (sole) loyal daughter....the "Hate your father, and mother verses being obviously "relative" just as the "Pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin, verses are.....)

As you have remarked Zeusor, Casey is utterly duplicitious now, in conversations that he has with "systemites" (still the COG terminology lingers on doesn't it!!) like you and I, and other non-believers, "hardened" to the truth.....nothing more than psychological chicanery gloss over the fact that he really dosen't have a clue what the Bible says.....and to be honest....that he no longer even cares to know what it says.....everything is now referenced to McKay (including the instruction to publicly deny that dependence, (it's teaching "meat" that babies in the faith would choke on...hence ply them with syrupy "milk", until they too, are too "invested" in the organization to be able to extricate themselves......while Casey privately lives for the occasional pat on the head from master David...)

What then is Caseys "faith" in actual practise ....

(If I may be so rude as to shamelessly steal some of the material that “Antichrist” recently posted on another thread on this forum,


In particular, I would like to point out the following (edited) passage, (also previously posted on this thread of ours some time ago, by Apostate if my memory serves me correctly)

Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric ( employed by Casey virtually everything he writes, in ignominious subconscious homage to Master McKay)

Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
Argument from "authority".
Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision).
Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
Special pleading (typically referring to god's will).
Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).
Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).
(Wilfully?) Misunderstanding the nature of statistics
Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect.
Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).
Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle .
Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).
Confusion of correlation and causation.
Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..
Suppressed evidence or half-truths.
Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms

That then is the grand sum of the "ethical principles" underlying Caseys Christ-less (but Mckay-full) "faith"
(naturally he cannot say as much to himself thus dooming himself to perpetual pretence)

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 03, 2009 01:13AM

Dear Zeusor,

Joe is a "poster-boy" at the moment, because David is frightened of losing him, and is still trying to win him over with tid-bits of "recognition" for "valuable service rendered"

....Casey and Fran are "poster boys" as they are perceived by David, at this point in time, to best faithfully echo him, in public....

(and of course likeness to David, the most gloriously faithful "Christian" on planet earth, is of course effectively likeness to "God" isn't it!)....

I too was once briefly a "poster boy"....and when you think of it, in some ways I still am.....(just these days I feature on a JC "WANTED" poster!)

I remain encouraged through it all though, by the spectacular (a turn of phrase I thank the good Jeremy Kyle for...!) lack of "success" on David's part.....he has out-stripped far, far larger cults in the amount of media coverage he has self engineered....yet has recruited less than one new "convert" every couple of years....over the course of his "cultdom"...

....something for which I truly thank and praise God!

....the overwhelming number of people see completely through him

....and in the easily forseeable future, he will die an angry and very, very lonely old man.....

....and the batch of whoever the "poster-boys" may happen be at that time, will be shown up to be little more than "paper-tigers"....

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 07, 2009 12:38AM

Dear Zeusor,

...the "empowerment charts" and "mental graphs" are simply "goads", David employs to delude those in subjection to him, that any discontent that they may be feeling, is in fact their "own fault" (One wonders, could David have been secretly studying "medicinal" psychology under the tuition of Christopher Hansard all these years)...
.....they are manipulative devices to discourage individuals from actively reflecting upon their circumstances objectively...

.....i.e. I'm unhappy...

..........this "unhappiness" is a device of the devil to prevent me from serving God...

..........I will record my moments of "unhappiness" and will learn how to refuse to even contemplate such ideas.

..........I will force myself to associate happiness with achieving the goals set before me (e.g literature distribution)

..........thus I will become more "effective" in my service to David.....(whoops, ...I mean "God"!!)

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 09, 2009 11:40PM

Some recent choice remarks (in italics) from the Apostle himself.......

We don't like people blatantly promoting other sites, etc., but we do welcome open discussion about various belief systems, so your comments will, hopefully, be respected, whether or not people agree with them.

David McKay (In reply to Victoria) Jan 27th

An interesting thought, David, that of course would completely condemn you as the fraud you are, if those external to your little Fourth Reich, were to be aware of how blatantly you use “Freeganism” or “International Volunteer Programs” to do little other than promote (ultimate) membership in the JesusChristians… you are so “respectful” of people, whether or not they “disagree with you” you will of course be able to explain why you hypocritically prevent your son Kevin or other former members such as Apostate, from posting on your site…..not of course because they would be able to unmask your contrivances in a flash….no of course not!

Monday Jan 8th 2009

On another thread, Josh asked a question which seems deserving of a thread of its own, and so I'm pasting it here, followed by my own response.

Since you guys teach that sincerity and following all the light you have are more important that your current religion, how do you deal with people when they sincerely come to a different understanding of Christs teachings than you? What I mean is if someone is equally convinced about being required to follow what Christ has taught, but understands his teachings in a much different way than your own, (whether you believe the understanding is legitimate or not, they sincerely believe it is what Jesus meant) how do you work out a relationship with that person?
If you guys are right and the 144,000 are going to come from all faiths than this is a question that will soon become a necessary problem to solve for everyone who is sincere.

(...a well put inquiry Josh....Do you recognize the COG influences behind Davids reply?)

Generally speaking, we do recognise that this is a problem which the sincere themselves (i.e. those of us who sincerely disagree) cannot resolve at our own level. What is happening is that we are travelling in parallel paths, and trying to knock a hole through the walls that divide us may actually take us away from the path that God is calling us each to follow.

(Hence I’ll thank you David not to deliberately “label” myself or other exmembers as “insincere” as the very fact that you do so, indicates that you are insincerely and manipulatively attempting to discredit anyone other than those already (or possibly) betoken to you….it is of course circular reasoning, to state that anyone who accepts your “authority” is sincere, (and those who don’t…are not) and would be a clear indication that you are utterly demented in your own narcissism.

That explanation is not absolute, since if "sincerity" and love are part of the path, then it becomes consistent with the path for us to deal with at least some of the differences that we find in other areas. (Those who disagree with your authority are progressively isolated through bogus grievance procedures and are then eliminated from the membership)

Even amongst our own membership there are differences of opinion, and we are able to accommodate them, and to learn from each other. It is not REALLY a case of everyone simply conforming with Dave's opinion or out they go! We do learn from each other.

This is an example of instructed denial…a psychological mechanism to prevent the minority of individuals who have remained loyal to you, questioning the loyalty that you so clearly benefit from …..please nominate the point David, at which say you have never had final control over the finances, outline for example the trust accounts in which communal cash is held and describe the reimbursement procedures for those who have given everything they possessed over to your control, only to be later “cast aside” when you have deemed them unworthy. You criminally defraud whoever is misfortunate enough to trust you.

It REALLY is and REALLY always has been a case of everyone simply conforming with Daves opinion or out they go…..your denial of this practice is a marketing strategy to improve your “public appeal”.

(If I may digress here for a moment, you will find many ex-members who will disagree with this. They will say that they did not get a fair hearing and/or that everything had to be done Dave's way or else. But a discerning person can usually pick up many hints of insincerity in them (or in you!!)(starting with the fact that they usually hide their identity) (as I DON’T hide my identity I am by your own reasoning one of the sincere few with whom you seek to fellowship) and so it becomes clear that the real grievance against each of them was that they stopped being SINCERE, and not that they had some higher revelation of truth that we simply would not hear out.)

Self - serving circular reasoning....our critics hate the "God" we self define, in order to justify ignoring them.....the logic of the criminally insane

But where people have differences which keep them outside our membership, there is still usually fellowship based on those areas where we do agree. It is sincerity itself that draws us to one another, and as our fellowship continues on that basis, the other differences seem to take care of themselves.

(I just LOVE brothers Zeusor and Private Eyes…we fellowship together in “spirit and in truth”….It is likewise nothing other sincerity itself that draws us together so strongly)

But there is another level of disagreement which we talk about with regard to those who are seriously opposed to us. We say that it may be possible that God would actually hide our similarities from each other and call on us to act in opposition to each other simply for the purpose of testing our loyalty to him. That understanding should help us to at least be a bit gentler in our criticisms of each other.

(Just as you have "gently" emotionally blackmailed individuals, illegally withheld or retained the personal property and private documents of others in spiteful acts of vengenance and falsely slandered others…(idiotically for example, you persist with the D. Lowe fetish)…you just know that I model my “gentle criticisms” of you, on the examples you set me, don't you, David!!)

For example, if Jesus tells me that I must "hate" my wife for him, and my wife is also called to "hate" me for him, yet we are both fully committed to serving God, it's going to be very difficult for us (and God) to know if we really are prepared to hate (i.e. forsake) one another for him. But if he tells me to do something, and he hides that from my wife, then he can cause a division which will test each of us in our willingness to move ahead in accord with our conscience even when we are each acting in opposition to the other.

Thus God has elected me to “test” you with public exposure, hopefully criminal charges and ideally incaceration…..honestly, you should be more thankful for me David!! I'm just helping you to "move ahead"

I am fully convinced that something like that is happening in our relationship with many people that we meet at the moment. Even if there were only 144,000 sincere people in the whole world, we should have found more than thirty of them by now, based on the millions of people that we have come into contact with. So, like the Jesans suggested in Survivors, God must be actually KEEPING us away from other sincere people for the time being, (... for which I TRULY thank you God!!) to test them and us, to see if we'll stick to following our conscience even when it seems like we are the only ones doing it.

Self justifying reasoning…..David at no point question his own despicable behaviour and trots out “reasons” that ever so conveniently simply, excuse his failings

One final comment: This is part of the dilemma that we find ourselves in when people accuse us of being too exclusive. They say, "How can you possibly think that you are the only people doing the right thing?" We insist that we do NOT think we are the only people doing the right thing, but we have to accept that this is primarily a theoretical statement, because in practice, (because we are completely self important and we tell ourselves that...) we ARE the only people that we are actively WORKING WITH, (You are a psychotic false prophet unable to see the “hand of God” in anything other than the greedy grasp of your rapacious paws….hence the short-sightedness here) and if we could point to another group that was doing the same thing, we would probably just naturally think of them as part of us too.

(IF you found another group of people “doing the same thing” you would naturally think of treacherously trying to swindle them into dependance on you, by firstly falsely befriending them, then dividing them against one another with poisonous gossip and unfounded allegations until you could take your pickings, from the social collapse of a group that was previously independent of you …as you did with Fran and Kimono when you “plundered” them from the others in the Christian group in Japan that you purposely tore asunder……)

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2009 11:49PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 10, 2009 11:41PM

A letter to Joe (or any other JesusChristians)

Dear Joe,

It is frightening to watch you descend ever further into lunacy....however there are many prayers that this (as it has been in the case of so many others) only temporary.....

Every worthwhile comment you make here are simply ideas that David has ransacked from other sources....Are you so poorly read not to understand that NOTHING you remark on here, is in any way an "original insight"...nothing originates from David or is in anyway connected to the JesusChristians.....they are all thoughts and reflections that precede David McKay and the "christian" Facism of his cult, by many decades or centuries.....they are the "sheepskins" for the wolves beneath them.

Were everything you say to be true, it in NO WAY then "proves" that the JesusChristians somehow champion "truths" that others lack the courage to stand up (as you will have been directly and indirectly assured), it in NO WAY justifies working unrewarded for years of your life doing nothing more than marketing McKay, and it in NO WAY supports the subjection you have placed yourself in psychologically and financially to the wolf David or his approved cronies, the would-be's-if-they-could-be's wolvelings....

You write as though you think you have made some "challenging" are only indicating how isolated you have become, not to be able to understand that David has simply repeatedly and consistently plagiarized the sentiments of others to then deceitfully pass off as his own, to those who have little historical knowledge or social awareness.....

"Bin raiding" or "boycotting luxury goods" does prove you right in any asserting any connection between the wider social observations you have made here and any iota of the mesmerizing vomit David feeds you about the greater glory of the JesusChristians and your duty to live in subjection to him and the Godless life he leads you unsupported association which you have dutifully regurgitated here.

( Joe's own words)

Re: Letter to Sheila (or any other Johnsons/Simpsons)
by joe » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:34 pm

Freegan food for thought, from an end-time perspective

There is a verse in the Bible which I have found especially convicting recently, and which I feel relates to the issue of freeganism. The verse reads:
"But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?"

The traditional interpretation of this passage is that it is an admonition to give our money and/or other material possessions to people we see who are in need. Very few people practice this. But even fewer would practice it in real terms with people in other countries... people we do NOT see.

I believe that John is trying to communicate the need for a love that extends to EVERYONE ... not just to those whom we happen to see, or those whom we would traditionally call brother or sister. (Matthew 5:46-47) The love that he is talking about, is the love a brother in Australia should have for a starving brother in Africa. It is the concern a sister in America should have for a malnourished and rapidly dying person living in the slums of India. This is the type of love that John (and Jesus) were trying to get us to show. But how do we show this type of love? The answer to that question leads us to the topic of freeganism.

Something which several of us Jesus Christians have recently been discussing quite seriously, is ceasing to purchase luxury food products (coffee, tea, sugar, chocolate, etc.), especially those grown in developing world countries. The reason behind us contemplating this action, is due to our understanding of diminishing global resources, dwindling arable land, and how this relates to world poverty.

For example, consider these polarly opposite facts: 10.2 billion pounds worth of food was wasted in the UK alone last year. At the same time, 10 million Kenyans presently face starvation as the country struggles to survive a nation-wide famine. Can you see a problem with this picture?

Resource depletion at an unsustainable rate is a reality of which most people in the world are not even aware, and about which even fewer people are interested in enough to care. Contrary to what the average person believes, you cannot overcome food shortages within developing world countries, simply by sending them money. Sure, money may help a bit; but the real problem for such countries is a lack of FOOD. Money can buy food, but money cannot PRODUCE food, at least not on land that has already been taken to grow the type of luxury crops mentioned above, to be used for exports to the First World. This is a key concept in what I see as freeganism's significance in the world today.

It is pointless for those of us living in Western world countries to feel satisfied with monetary donations to the developing world, at the same time that we rape, exploit, and deplete those same countries' valuable land resources. Last year alone, the price of basic staples such as corn, rice, and wheat, increased by 31%, 74%, and 130%, respectively. These are astronomical figures, affecting real people, and yet most of us living in the affluent west would hardly even bat an eyelid when faced with such depressing facts! Those statistics are a very cold way of saying that such basic things as corn, rice, and wheat are becoming less and less available to the people who need them the most. We in the West will still be able to afford the prices, but those on the bottom of the heap will not.

How callous our hearts have become to the suffering of those apart from ourselves! For those of us professing to be Christians, it is hypocritical to excuse ourselves from taking personal responsibility for how our actions affect those around us, albeit in different parts of the world. Christians can't hide from the truth, pretending that it doesn't exist. That would be dishonest. Christians are supposed to be HUNGRY for the truth, hungry enough to cling to it even when it proves ourselves to be wrong; and it is this challenging truth that this article hopes to discuss.

The theory behind us "boycotting" luxury food products (e.g. tea, coffee, and sugar), is simply that (a) you don't need them (b) you can live without them, and (c) depending upon who you ask, you would probably be better off without them anyway. Buying luxury food products supports the waste of land which is badly needed for farming staple foods (e.g. wheat and rice), because it is being used instead for the production of non-essentials (much of which only ends up going into landfill after it reaches the west, anyway). Now I am not suggesting that Christians HAVE to stop buying such products completely. We are not here to create laws to be imposed on others. However, what I am saying is that, on the whole, Christians need to make a much stronger effort to empathize with the plight of those affected through our own over-spending, and then to change their lifestyle in accordance with the verse that I quoted at the start of this article. This approach does not make some kind of religious rule against what one can and cannot buy (although ideally, the more informed the individual is about how their spending affects others on a mass scale, the more responsible they will be when deciding what to buy), at the same time that it does clearly show the way forward if we want to save the environment, our fellowmen, and ultimately our own souls. All of this seems to be linked with what we do with our money.

One very simple solution to the problem of (a) lack of food in the developing world, and (b) destruction of the earth through overconsumption, is simply to do more bin-raiding. Go for it! Go get it! Eat it like it's hot! When you bin-raid, you are in every sense of the word helping to save the planet. And if you are lucky enough (like several of us have been on numerous occasions) to find luxury food products in a bin, then you can enjoy them thoroughly, with a clear conscience, since your consumption has not contributed to the production of those luxuries. It truly is a gift from God! However, we would like to caution people to consider very strongly before they purchase luxury foods items (or anything else, for that matter), the implications that such a seemingly simple action has on the rest of the world. As JS Mills once said, “All it takes to destroy a system is to refuse to buy its products.” And history has shown that to be true. But before I get further stuck into what I am proposing as a solution, let me continue addressing the problem.

What we are seeing today, in terms of suffering for the poor and destruction of the earth through over-consumption by the rich, can be traced directly back to greed, something the Bible describes as the root of all evil (I Timothy 6: 10). People have taken the approach that there is no limit to the resources that God has allowed the human race to consume, when in reality, there is. Their own greed and selfishness has led them to accept this lie; and what we see today is the end-result of over 2,000 years of individuals taking that approach.

In reality, there is a limit to the quantity of resources available to us on this earth. A nice way that it was described to me once, was to see the earth and its resources kind of like one big bowl. For centuries, people acted as if the bowl had no bottom, and consequentially took from the bowl more than their fair share, because they believed that it would continue to produce forever. However, now we are reaching the bottom of the bowl. People are digging for oil, and realizing that we are running out. They are grabbing for land, only to find that most of it has already been claimed. People are discovering the limit. Still, despite the clear evidence that we are reaching the end of the earth's resources, people continue to grab, thinking that they can cheat the system. But there is a bottom to the bowl. What do we do with that knowledge?

I am not sure. As I type this, I am still working out the way forward for myself individually, and also, for what I would like to encourage others to practice. One thing is for certain, and that is that there are no easy solutions to the problem. Any change for good requires some sort of personal sacrifice; and the same goes for saving the planet/trying to show love for our fellow man. Again, I want to re-emphasize bin-raiding amongst other things, as it really is a very simple, short-term, but practical way to reduce the amount of waste in our society, and also garner neccessary food and clothing without contributing to the problem. Waste is so abundant in the west; it is easy to find not only what you NEED to survive, but also your heart's desire, all in the bottom of a supermarket skip!

The bottom line behind everything I am saying is this: how can we practically work to reduce waste? And, in light of world-wide famines affecting several developing world countries (and it looking like that trend will only continue to increase), how can we help to encourage the growth of nutritional food products on the earth's limited surface, and the equitable distribution of these products to all, as opposed to luxury food products being grown and shipped thousands of miles away, much of which only ends up as waste (further increasing our current problem with waste in the world)? What I am suggesting, is that (a) people practice bin-raiding as a practical way of sourcing food (and clothing and other needs as well!), and (b) that people stop buying luxury food products grown in developing world countries, as it only serves to further encourage the waste of valuable land in those countries, when it could be used to grow food for the local inhabitants. Of course, these are only suggestions. If waste reduction and increased food production are the goals, then there must be more ways to achieve those goals then the ones I have suggested here. What are some ways that you can think of? These are the questions that we all need to be asking ourselves, if we hope to have any chance of reversing the current curse, so that we can have a reasonable hope of saving the planet.

Now, to tie all of this in with the times that we are currently living in, from a scriptural perspective, I will shift slightly over to the topic of Bible prophecy. As many people reading this would know, there is a significant passage in the Revelation, that talks about a time where no one will be able to buy or sell anything, without what is referred to as "the mark of the Beast". This is signified through a mark in the right hand or forehead, which represents the "name" of the beast, or the "number" of the beast's name. The number of the beast is 666. (Revelation 13: 16-18)

Throughout the ages, people have made a game of guessing who the beast, or Anti-Christ, being referred to in the passage above actually is. People have said that it is the Pope, George Bush, or most recently, Barrack Obama. However, most if not all such guesses are based more upon newspaper sensationalism than actual scriptural support. In reality, it is not so important to know WHO the Anti-Christ is, as it is to know what he REPRESENTS. What the Anti-Christ, or beast, represents, is faith in money, and what it can buy, as opposed to faith in an all-powerful Creator that can meet our basic needs WITHOUT money. THIS is the lesson that is essential for Christians to internalize as we move closer to the literal fulfillment of the prophecies about the mark of the beast; and this is also the lesson that brings us back to the topic of freeganism.

Going back to where we started, a central theme for freeganism, is the practice of surviving without using money. Whether it is squatting, foraging for food or bin-raiding, the common denominator in all of these freegan activities is that they are done without using money. Relating this to the Great Tribulation, the time period in which we believe Christians will not be able to use money without suffering the wrath of God, freeganism is one of the most practical ways to prepare for such a time period, before it actually comes. If you are going to have to learn to live without money, outside of the socio-economic system, in just a few years/decades (perhaps), why not get some practical practice/preparation now, before you are forced to do so?

These are some heavy thoughts/ideas which I am presenting here, many of which understandably will be hard to accept. Heck, even I am finding what I wrote hard to accept, and I wrote it! Nevertheless, I do believe that these are issues that any sincere Christian should at least be CONSIDERING, regardless of what they eventually decide to do. Hopefully the ideas introduced in this article will help to spark such considerations.

Good luck!

If anyone would like to respond to anything I have said in this article, they can do so by clicking on the link below:

I'd like to repond Joe.....You are naive and consequently you are becoming increasingly deluded by the illusion of grandeur that David attempts to cloak his cult in!

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