I think one of the most dangerous situations one can imagine is where a cult leader is seriously or terminally ill. He (and it's always invariably a he) may want to take everyone else with him, when he goes. We 'Rickettes' are laughed at when we raise questions about Heaven's Gate, etc. And yet, I recently saw one of the most disturbing posts I've ever seen on the Jesus Christians website. It was from Roland, who wrote this:

"We have to strive to have the spiritual discipline and unity, much like the ancient Legions of Rome and we won't falter in our journey. I know that we haven't really been tested yet, but the time is coming when our words will be put to the test and whether we have the courage to do what is right at the cost of our lives will be our opportunity to shine."

It's third post down here:

[welikejesus.com]

What did this guy mean? Doesn't he have a wife and young child? I guess I'm just worried about a group that has a section of its website entitled "Endtime Issues", where individual threads have titles such as "Politics and the Apocalypse" and "Armageddon for Beginners".

Dear Talamasca,

Roland is engaging in a "ploy" here... (as Paul admonishes us to be all things to all men.....being like a "Jew" until the "Jews" and a "Gentile" until the "Gentiles"....

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.....) trying to better "relate" to the life circumstances of

someone (leading the thread you have linked us to) who has displayed some potential "interest".....emphasizing what they have "in common" attempting to establish some

"rappoire" from which to eventually be in a better "sales" position (Hey I can trust this guy...Look how at all the mutual interests we share)....

Roland is endeavouring to "pyschologically profile" a possible convert with the "military references".....it's a standard practise with salesmen the world over (including the unscrupulous cult-kind of salesmen......see for example the Scientologists recent "kind offer" to help Amy Winehouse with an "alcohol rehabilitation" program!!)


You will also, though, find "military similies" a recurring theme in Rolands postings.....Roland only holds the position of "leader" that he does, because he was so instrumental in assisting David, betraying Kevin and Craig and all the others in Australia, back in the split of the community in the middle 90's....at that time, Roland "sold his soul" to David (whatever public version of the history of event, David needed or stand-over services were required to physically take the money and property from those in Aust...Roland would provide it).....

....this "sale" was sufficient to buy him "leadership" status, after being overlooked for decade after decade....

It must have irked David enormously to have lost someone of Craig's quality (he would naturally already have long steeled himself to the loss of Kevin)....and then to have additionally been short-changed with the retention Roland.....however that is the nature of dealing with "Quislings"....they tend to be rather personally inadequate individuals..... and of course for the sake of the money(some tens of thousands of dollars) and chattels, and the vital crushing of any public dissent against his rule, it was a deal David couldn't refuse making....

Roland constantly "grandstands" to prop up his own "self-belief" with constant reminders of the "importance" of the struggle, and the "justness" of the fight......

He is certainly clueless enough to be talked into taking his own life if David so wanted it.....however David has so FEW "disciples" that I'm disinclined to think that David himself, would discard his following so lightly.....

Looking at the matter from David's perspective...

He has a little under 20 people who will stroke his ego whenever he wishes (assure him how important he and how they treasure every word he speaks), will work gratis in order to pay for him and his wife to live a comfortable enough (if not entirely luxurious) retirement and of course, there's always the possibility that they'll be able to pull in another few individuals, before he ultimately expires....the kidney sales (claiming to be donating altruistically, while at the same time charging the reciepients for "lost income" and other like expenses) means that David can continue to easily subsidize the publication of his written work....(that no-one would otherwise buy)....providing him with that little fillip of "self-worth"....and to thus be able to continue to indulge in the past-time of writing comfortably into his declining years....

David knows that deep down, what it all comes down to is that...."Crime PAYS".....

I don't think he would set about deliberately depriving himself of all that he struggled to thieve for himself over the years.....

However I do acknowledge that it would have become very clear to him of late, that his time in this world is limited (Atrial Fibrillation, cancer recovery)....which may lead him to take "risks" (with the lives of others) that soon will be of increasingly little consequence to him.....

This is a topic that has been discussed in earlier pages,......


With the few individuals that I'd still know something or personally, I'd like to think that Robin has matured enough to still be able to choose not to be part of anything that would unduly risk the lives of members. He has really taken to the work in Kenya(seemingly the only worthwhile thing that the JesusChristians involve themselves in these days), and I'm sure is far more responsible for the "management" of the program than the "show-pony" Fran. Robin I think could say "NO".....(although his wife, Christine, would probably just shed a tear or two and to drink the "poisoned Kool-Aid" with her and dear old Dad...just one "last" time!!)...

Roland on the other hand...would probably only be saved (in such circumstances) by the judicious intervention of his wife, Sue.....who again, judging from her writings, still has some independent sense of her wits about her (Sue is of course, still implicated in the treachery of the illegal dismembership of the community in Australia, and the illegal dispossession of their cash and assets)....Sue would be the "brains" behind the operation in England (...it would be hard to describe Roland as the "brawn" behind it,...but he could play the role of being the "buttocks" behind it).......I imagine that their son will ultimately leave the JC's.....which will be a devastating blow for Sue (numbskull Roland will just grumble about his sons "unworthiness" and the "wiles" of the Devil...).....I'm not sure how Sue will handle that....but I think she could say "NO" to David to save her son at least from harm, while he is there with her...

Ross is basically a "battered wife" syndrome sufferer, who always returns to David for the weekly meagre ration of "happiness" he receives, in amongst the scores of "beatings", not believing that there could realistically be any other alternative for him....I unfortunately could not see him questioning a "suicide pact" which had been carefully "explained" to him very sweetly....even though I remember as a very idealistic young man, diligent in his faith.....a pattern of abuse over decades, becomes ingrained, if you always just accept it.....


It's really difficult to say much at all about the "ethical guts" of other "2nd Generation" long-termers (Fran, Kim, Casey, Reinehardt, Jeremy?......)



...there is a wild-card that David might actually realize "on his death-bed" how many of his years have been wasted in the hateful practices of slander, deception, blackmail and larceny that he has championed over the years.....and seek to re-engage with his "critics" ....possibly with some genuine resolve to move the JC's out of the "cultdom" into which they are slipping.....I would absolutely never imagine this in circumstances where David was actually healthy....however one's demise does (sometimes despite oneself) lead to a little more introspection....

I would say many of the critics of the JC's still support the "theory" (personal sincerity, respect of the scriptural injunctions, the freedom of individuals to pursue the "discipleship" they believe appropriate to their lives).....that is still so gratuitously bandied about by the JC's.....

While I will naturally enough not cease to post my "scandously virulent hate-mongering" on the RR forum.....David or the other JC's, are of course welcome to visit, should they visit these shores..... 010 5540 2447

I'm not a computer expert, but I recently found out something interesting about websites. If you go to an organization's home page, right click and then select "view source", you get to see the "keywords" that the website owner has selected. It defines how an organization views itself and shows words and phrases that - if people search on them - direct them to their website.

Interestingly, if you do this on the Jesus Christians website (and please don't take my word for it - try this for yourselves), "keywords" include the following: Children of God, McKay, masturbation, greed, money, antichrist, 666, mark of the beast, Armageddon, endtime prophesy and end of the world.

It's fascinating to see how a cult defines itself.

I didn't know that about websites. I tried googling those search words however, and I didn't get anything in at least the first two pages for the Jesus Christians (I didn't check beyond the two pages though). So if they want people to find them just by those search words, they didn't choose very good ones.

However I did do that 'view source' thing you talked about and it also came up with more words than just what Talamasca wrote above: "Jesus Christians, jesuschristians, forsaking all, endtime prophecy, Godstuff comix, living by faith, teachings of Jesus, children of God, McKay, greed, money, commune, alternative lifestyle, Gandhi, Tolstoy, end of the world, Liberator, materialism, Easy English, Rappville, mark of the beast, Armageddon, 666, Excommunicated, hypocrisy, Australia, India, radical, sincerity, pacifists, masturbation, tracts, comics, anti-greed, cult, Nullarbor, Bible, evolution, cartoons, community, Revelations, antichrist, forsake all, apologetics.

I think that it gives a broader picture to include everything there.

Thank you Furry Farie for fill out the picture for us here. I do note however that Talamasca merely said that the "keywords" INCLUDE (not comprise in full...) "Children of God, McKay, masturbation, greed, money, antichrist, 666, mark of the beast, Armageddon, endtime prophesy and end of the world" ...

It possibly also would help give a "complete" picture of your posting, if you could also go to the trouble to IDENTIFY yourself as a current member of the JesusChristians


However, despite the fact that you are not a "disinterested observer" (as you appear to want to deceptively imply) as you note I too agree that we should do full justice to the "keywords" that the JesusChristians have purposely selected in order to win interest in themselves....I believe that these are literally as follows (having followed Talamascas instructions to the letter)....



<meta content="A live-by-faith, work-for-God-not-money Christian community. We distribute Bible-based comics and other tracts, and do free (voluntary) work. Against hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the church. In favour of honesty, humility and love." name="description" />
<meta content="Jesus Christians, jesuschristians, forsaking all, endtime prophecy, Godstuff comix, living by faith, teachings of Jesus, children of God, McKay, greed, money, commune, alternative lifestyle, Gandhi, Tolstoy, end of the world, Liberator, materialism, Easy English, Rappville, mark of the beast, Armageddon, 666, Excommunicated, hypocrisy, Australia, India, radical, sincerity, pacifists, masturbation, tracts, comics, anti-greed, cult, Nullarbor, Bible, evolution, cartoons, community, Revelations, antichrist, forsake all, apologetics" name="keywords" />



As we are fortunate to have access to someone with such in depth knowledge as you would have Furie Farie, in addition to the full range of "keywords" that somehow the JesusChristians seek to associate themselves with, would you be able to add some further (specific!!) explanatory clarification to the "self-introduction" that proceeds these keywords...some of the wordings of the terms, confuse me....but I guess I'm just not getting the "full picture"....

A live-by-faith, work-for-God-not-Money Christian Community (Do you, or do you not, have mandatory literature targets for the sale of Davids' written work...What average donation do you look for from your members in their sale profiles....How many hours a day do you spend "retailing"?... .Do you or do you not claim "lost income" when you settle for the "costs" involved in your supposedly altruistic organ donations....so then perhaps "A loathe of Faith, work for Davids' money Christian Community would perhaps be more accurate...?) We distribute(for a price?) Bible-based comics (very occasionally it seems...usually you distribute David efforts to emulate the novels of others, for his own self-aggrandisiment), and do free (voluntary) work. (As the bible in the Sermon on the Mount states not to "let your right hand know what your left is doing" is it genuinely "voluntary" where you are plainly seeking to buy publicity for yourselves....) Against Hypocrisy and Self-Righteousness in the Church (..but not against hypocrisy and self-righteousness within yourselves?). In favour of honesty(How much money did you return to Vicki and her children when you threw them out on the street, after the years they put into working in unpaid servitude for the JesusChristians.? What do you usually return to those who for whatever reasons, choose to discontinue their membership of your religious organization?), humility(Why does David describe himself as an "Apostle" when the bible states not to even as much as call any man "Master") and love (...whipping those where you think you can bluff them into submitting to you, suing anyone with the invention of vexatious claims in order to silence them....May I "love" you in a similar fashion, Furie Farie?)

<meta content="A live-by-faith, work-for-God-not-money Christian community. We distribute Bible-based comics and other tracts, and do free (voluntary) work. Against hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the church. In favour of honesty, humility and love." name="description" />......hmmm.....I wonder???



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2008 11:54AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Like many others, I wish Roland well in his recovery from the recent Kidney donation and of course congratulate on his act and wish the recipient of the Kidney, future good health......

As the JesusChristians....appear to routinely financially benefit from Kidney Donations (how much does David McKay tell you to describe your "lost income" as?....the "gift" (of cost recompense) is then distributed worldwide in order to prevent it being taxed or traced?)...I hope that Roland has nevertheless matured enough to have actually donated his kidney out of actual service to God .....rather than service to David MacKay.....and is thus capable of proving my earlier grim prognosis wrong....

It would help a more positive "reading" of events though, were the JesusChristians ever ONCE to donate a Kidney without the media feeding frenzy they perpetually deliberately create.....

...and ANY hospital should refuse on this very ground alone....their is clearly a "pecuniary interest" in the donation for them, out of the "good press" that they so buy.....

David of course imagines that he can forever "outrun" the bad publicity he creates for himself....that is, by temporarily abandoning Sydney, he can physically move elsewhere and simply "repackage" the deceit that he sells....the psychosis that afflicts him though remains throughout....

He has for years, sought to "disarm" those who would otherwise more readily see through him, by gratutiously seeking to portray himself as above suspicion by identifying dishonesties in others, that one (who didn't know the man!) would then think David to never stoop to himself...

...but of course we know better...

Where David writes in his own words (Armageddon for Beginners p.iv), (with my own explanatory comments in bold), that

"The Pope, like Solomon, symbolizes what the world perceives to be the epitome of religious excellence. ( A little less than the "world" perhaps are likely to hold the Pope in such high esteem). Yet the best that the religious world (David of course here seeking to create the false impression among readers that his own little empire is not part of the big, bad "religious world") can offer becomes unspeakably evil if it is used to fight against the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (Yes David you are unspeakably evil. You are unspeakably when you teach your followers to ignore the commands of Christ to emulate the "meek", the "merciful" the "pure in heart" and the "peacekeepers" and to "hunger after righteousness" in the Sermon of the Mount, by overtly instructing and covertly encouraging them to lie, blackmail their family or friends into silence, perjure the course of justice and conspire to vexatiously sue those who threaten you, and defraud whoever they may while hypocritically claiming to "serve" God (and not yourself!!).....). The Bible says, "Let God be true and every man a liar" (God is true and David is certainly a man who is a liar!) In other words, unless we are willing (in loyalty to Christ and all that he taught) to turn loose of our loyalty to whomever (David McKay in particular!) we perceive to be the next most noble religious authority, we are going to err seriously in our attempts to find the truth about the future. (...and indeed the members of the JesusChristians have all erred seriously because none of them are capable of turning loose of their servitude to David McKay...again we have the sickening hypocrisy of McKay on full display here....such statements are simply deceptive strategies that attempt to persuade the reader to subconsciously imagine that David himself would never engage in such behaviour)

However, we still maintain that our emphasis should not be on targetting and attacking any individual. (VAST episodes on the JesusChristian website are designed to target and attack individuals....Betty's father Fred (now removed as he was blackmailed into submission with the threat that he would never see his grandson again if he persisted to "cross" David), David Lowe and other individual members of the Quakers, all former members who have spoken up publicly.....David McKay is a sick, SICK man to judge by the behaviour he engages in here,...."out of a bitter spring, can only come more bitterness...."...!! ) The real battle is more one of right and wrong attitudes. Characterisations of people as either demons or saints often miss the point of God's grace. (THUS as David never fails to demonize his opponents nor fails to cast himself as a "saint" by calling himself an apostle, we can see that he has become entirely bereft of Gods' grace).

May God bless everyone in and connected to this group and pour out his grace upon them so that they realise that it is the sacrifice that Jesus made that will melt the heart of humanitiy and not the work of man. May your breaking hearts be filled with the love and forgiveness of Christ. May the bonds of fear be melted by God's love and may you experience the peace that surpassses all understanding and may your relationships be restored.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2008 09:19AM by muppet.

Dear Muppet,

Thank you for your kindness in wishing well to those unfortunate enough to have (or having had) some association with McKay. Your prayers are appreciated!

While we must remain prayerful over the fates of those still ensnared in servitude to David, mistakenly believing that in obediance to David, they are then "entitled" to be able to disobey Christ (The meek, humble, merciful, peaceful seekers of righteousness that Christ called people to be and which David's self-centered attention seeking and self justified criminality - slander, blackmail, fraud, larceny, false pretences and negligently reckless indifference to others, - stands in blatant contradiction to... )

We should at the same time though be mindful of the scores and scores of people who have been able to turn their back on McKay...

..who despite being deprived of any finances or resources of their own,

despite being repeatedly publicly belittled and humiliated for daring to challenge McKay,

before the "entire genuinely Christian world" (as the JesusChristians privately consider themselves),

and who have been utterly isolated from any external perspective that might cast McKay in a another light...

that the overwhelming numbers of people who have become entrapped in Davids' snare of proof verses, circular reasoning and pop psychology.....

have yet the strength to have walked out on him,


I am sure that the angels in heaven must sing as joyously [au.youtube.com], the moment any individual has retained sufficient belief in themselves and in the principles that they once erroneously believed that David shared with them, to return to life, escaping the dark and devilish misery of (barely) disguised David worship.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2008 09:47PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

This psychiatrist is acting in a professional manner having a usual case discussion of a potential donor and is now being lambasted on the JC forum for acting criminally for discussing Rolands case with other medical professionals so that a judgment can be formed on the ethics involved. One again the JC’s project their actions onto others.


From
Dr XXX XXX, MRCP MRCPsych
Consultant in Psychological Medicine
to XXX XXX, Consultant Nephrologist

Dear XXX,

Thank you for asking me to see this 44 year old man who has nominated himself as a potential altruistic kidney donor. No doubt by the time you receive this letter, we will have had the opportunity to discuss the case in more detail. but it does present complex issues which I willl outline below. I have prepared this brief report from an interview with Mr Gianstefani and also from other information in the public domain.

Mr Gianstefani stated that the background to his wish to become a donor began in 2001. He said a friend became inspired to do a similar act. It turns out that the person who is Mr Gianstefani's friend is a member of a small religious sect, known as the Jesus Christians. This has been referred to by many others as a religious cult.

It is commented that the Jesus Christians use organ donation, typically a kidney, as proof of their ultimate devotion to the teachings of Jesus.

In 2002 his wife decided to nominate herself as a kidney donor and developed a relationship with a family in the USA. As the relationship developed, she donated a kidney and has remained in contact with the family since. The idea subsequently developed in Mr Gianstefani's mind and he formed friendships with potential kidney recipients again in new York, but was found not to be a match. He once again tried to donate in Israel in 2005, but it appeared this was declined because of him contracting TB. Altogether I believe that he has made three attempts to donate a kidney.

Mr Gianstefani has been fully appraised of the risks and benefits of the operation and is aware that he does not get to chose the recipient, unlike in other countries. Furthermore he is aware that he may never find out who the recipient was. He has read up on the operative procedure, on potential pain, symptoms post-operatively and its effect on employment. He has considered that the kidney may reject acutely, and is not deterred by this.

With regard to his motives, this is born out of his religious conviction. He believes that Western society has excess and individuals have more than they need. It is his belief that he should follow the teachings of Jesus and that action is better than membership of any particular group or organisation.

He said he has no fears of entrapment in the process of donation and would be comfortable to pull back from a decision should he have second thoughts. He would hope that his act would encourage others and would be inclined to publicise his actions on the website that his religious group owns.

Mr Gianstefani himself said he has never had an occasion to see a psychiatrist or have any prescription for psychoactive medication from his GP.

With regards to his personal history... after leaving school, Roland became involved in the religious group described above, although it operated under a different name at that time. He has been with them for the past 26 years. In the 1980's and 1990's he was primarily in Bangalore, India doing a mixture of social work and evangelism.

He has intermittently been in the UK over the past 7 years and has also been in Kenya and the USA. He has been married to Sue since 1987 and has one child, Daniel. He does not send Daniel to school because of what he described as the "corrosive influence" prevalent in schools and because of his travelling. Daniel, therefore, learns by correspondence school. His circle of friends consists mainly of Jesus Christians. He described financially "living with faith" and this takes the form of living from charitable donations. He shares a residence and camper vans with other members of his group and described living simply. I note that the address given for correspondence is a PO Box.

He does not take any illicit substances and drinks very modestly.

He does have a forensic history and contact with the police although it does not appear that he has been charged with any offence. The first incident occurred in 2001 in a case that became widely publicised throughout the UK. This related to a boy who at the time was 16, named Bobbly Kelly. According to Mr Gianstefani's account, the boy in question, met the Jesus Christians at a shopping centre, wished to go with them and had permission of his guardian to do so. They took him to one of their communities. The opposing view was that Bobby Kelly had been kidnapped, and it was for this that Mr Gianstefani was arrested.

It appears that the Jesus Christians refused to hand the boy over to the authorities and Bobby himself claimed in telephone interviews with the media that he had not been kidnapped and was there voluntarily.

The court imposed a media ban on interviews with him (Bobby) and he was made a ward of court in an attempt to get him away from the group. Eventually Bobby was located and the charge of kidnapping was dropped.

A similar incident took place in 2005 in Kenya. Again a young woman joined the community and again Mr Gianstefani was arrested, suspected of kidnapping her. He was held in a prison in Kenya which is where I understand he caught TB. Similar to the previous case, the woman herself apparently denied having been kidnapped and eventually the case was dropped.

SUMMARY

On a personal level, Mr Gianstefani came across as intelligent and thoughtful. There was no evidence of overtly psychiatric problems, and neither was there any evidence of a past psychiatric history - although this will need to be confirmed as usual with his GP. The more complex discussion is around both coercion and clinical ethics. The coercion discussion centres on the difficulties in free choice belonging to a group in which donation is considered to be an important role. Whilst there was no overt evidence to suggest that he is being coerced, pressures to do such things are not always direct and may be difficult to quantify.

As for the ethical point of view, I do not think it is for me to decide whether the hospital wish to accept kidneys from members of religious groups such as these.

I have noted considerable discussions in other hospitals on exactly this point. I understand in some hospitals, this has been approved and in some declined.

I would suggest it is the role and responsibility of the clinical ethics committee to provide clear guidance on matters such as this and would suggest that they or a group with a similar role become involved.

Yours sincerely,
Dr XXX XXX, MRCP MRCPsych
Consultant in Psychological Medicine

cc XXX XXX
(and Roland's GP)