Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 11, 2009 11:57PM

Dear Joe,

While you would be aware of the admonition to judge others by their fruits (David or his cronies always retain control of the finances (such as the thousands made out of the "cost-reimbusements" from the organ harvesting), that you are not "permitted" to visit anyone external to the organization unless accompanied, any "information" you have access to is filtered (say for example the vexatious litigation that David hopes will hound your family into submission (...and that you ultimately heard of third hand??), the manic smear campaigns against David Lowe or Betty's father at an earlier point in time, the centrality of the personality of David in the literature (he almost invariably writes it doesn't he?)... and the necessity of his "approval" for any major undertaking of time or resources), stealthily "grooming" you for membership while you were under eighteen years of age.......) might want to all so consider judging David by the seeds of thought in what he writes......

Lets take for example a simple extract, the opening paragraph from "26. Summing Up" out of the final pages of "Armageddon for Beginners"

(....a miserable attempt to be "cute" in the title, don't you think?....)

Page 198

"We said at the start of this book of this book that most people would read if for the wrong reasons: idle curiosity, to find flaws in the theories; to work out a way to cheat faith. (This is a manipulative method to pre-empt negative reaction by immediately "labelling" those who are critical as personally inadequate in some is a dishonest ploy). But I wrote the book anyway. (Blowing his own trumpet, David is attempting to disarm the reader from doubting him, by asserting his own "good intentions"'s nothing more than self justification). And I did it on the off-chance that someone with real faith (deceitfullly implying ONLY those of "real-faith" will respond to the "message") would read it, and be stirred into action by it.

....and so it goes interminably on, in exactly the same style, ad naseum.....!

David writing is full of self-justifying circular reasoning, and subliminal insinuations hidden behind pop psychology and the occasional scripture. Come on Joseph, you are considerably "older and wiser" and should be able to see right through the mask David wears, and elucidate the "abundance of the mans' heart" from little more than the "words of his mouth" now!!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2009 11:59PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: February 15, 2009 11:55PM

Lets have a little look at an innocent enquiry to the JesusChristians on their website late, last year, shall we....
and here I will trouble to quote only the first of many self-centered "rebuffs" Mr Gomes was subject to

Fallible Bible = Fallible teachings Part 2
by John Gomes » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:27 pm

Hello Jesus Christians.

I first came across this group about 6 years ago, in a time when I felt confused and lost about the whole question of God, prompted by that little Survivors book you guys were distribtuing.

I spoke at some length with someone who was a member, though I'm not sure if he still is. I had actually come across it when I was living in a homeless shelter. I've come a ways from those times, and first and foremost, I will be honest with you guys, that I am a skeptic and I don't believe in any religion, not Christianity, not Islam or Hinduism, not anything. I am not, however an atheist, rather, I am agnostic, as I believe that anything supernatural, such as God or an afterlife is impossible to proove. I think, from a philosophical standpoint that the existence of a creator being, a "God" is not outside of the realm of possibility, but that modern day religious texts are, shall we say fallacious.

Coming across the JC's again out of curiosity to see what you guys are up to after these passed few years, and reading the topic that is the namesake of the one I am starting, I have decided to continue along the train of thought originally postulated, but from a reasonable standpoint, instead of accusing you guys of silly things like anti-semitism.

As the previous person"Username" said, as the Bible, and admitted by you, is fallible, then it calls into question the entire validity of the work. I decided to preface this concept with a question :

Given that the Bible is fallible, how, exactly, do the Jesus Christians interpret which are the parts of the religious text that are correct, and which ones are not correct?
John Gomes

Dear Mr Gomes, if I may offer you some background information,.....

It must be puzzling for you to have been so roundly berated in all the replies you received, for asking what anyone else might have imagined to have been a fairly innocuous question. Let me explain why.

David McKay principally derives his biblical exegesis from the “Mo Letters” which he accessed during his years of association with the Children of God. Hence “living by faith” and “working for God” are ideas stolen from David Berg that David now peddles as his own.

The organizational structure of the JesusChristians (David retains control over funds and resources “forsaken” to the JesusChristians, David is the ultimate spiritual authority, the isolation of new disciples from external influences and the hierarchy of informers (rewarded with the badge of “leadership”) is also modelled on Davids’ past experiences with the COG.

The JesusChristians themselves principally derive any Biblical interpretation that they may hold from the “instructions” they receive from David. He is the principal criteria in any interpretation that individual members of the JesusChristians (are permitted to) hold. David’s “interpretations” vary over time (to best suit his interests at a particular moment) hence it is actually impossible for the JesusChristians to nominate the (independent) criteria you ask them for.

Naturally this would be a source of public discredit to them, hence it is dishonestly denied. Thus you get responses like the following (among many others besides) from Davids’ wife.

By Cherry » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:36 pm

Hi John,

Thanks for posting. Perhaps the way to answer this question is with another one. Are you infallible? If not, how do you determine when you are infallible and when you are not? Or should we say, if you are totally fallible, does that mean you are totally false?

Cherry (David McKays’ wife!!)

Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:40 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

The intention here of course, is to refuse to discuss the matter AND to disingenuously insinuate that the question itself is offensive. Of course it is nothing less than Cherry herself who is offensive…..however I do consider it vital that Cherry be given every opportunity to express herself in forums such as these, as she so persuasively discredits the JesusChristians with her pathetic attempts at "venom". After all, if I had to choose some half-witted side-kick to unwittingly expose the idiocy of her lord and master, with her feeble come-backs...well I would hardly need to look much further, would I!...Her response could of course be reworked after an interesting fashion.

Hi Cherry,

Thanks for posting. Perhaps the way to answer your non-reply is with another question. Is David Mckay infalliable? If not, how do you determine when he is falliable and when he is not? Of should I say, if you don’t even bother to ask yourself when David McKay might be falliable, doesn’t this mean the JesusChristians are totally false?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2009 12:01AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: February 18, 2009 08:00AM

The JC's could be commended for their motivation. They are extremely dutiful in litnessing, getting out their quotas, loyalty to leadership. warning the world about their love of money and idolatry. In many cases I expect they are incredibly tired also by these duties. Too tired perhaps, in some cases, to realise that they themselves may have been steered away from the awesome loving God they set out to serve and ended up idolising the one who demands that they cut themselves off from loved ones, isolate themselves from society and work constantly to keep quotas and get the literature out. Demands for constant service can sap away your life and your peace.

An elderly retired preacher attended a Baptist convention in Willow creek some years ago. He was surprised when the leaders noticed him sitting in the front row and asked him if he would like to say the opening prayer. This is what he came up with; a moving tribute to his king who gives, loves, cares, restores and brings peace. The Jesus of the Bible. Nothing like the creature described in JC literature.


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2009 08:05AM by muppet.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: March 01, 2009 05:06AM

Hello eveyone,

I haven't disappeared, but I have been away from this forum for a long while due to study commitments. No excuse, but I plan to refresh myself on what has been written and discussed here. It may take a little while.

Presently, there are fires in our area and much of our resources (material, mental, emotional) have been spent coping with this situation. I can report that all is fine and we continue to move forward, in strength.


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: March 03, 2009 03:26AM

Thank you very much for subscribing to receive this newsletter. We appreciate
your interest. If you decide you do not wish to continue receiving our
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SUBJECT heading on the reply form. Your name will be dropped immediately.
Thank you. Also feel free to write back with any comments you have about what
you read in this newsletter.


Get ready for it, folks! There is a lot of big news this month!


We apologise for not having put out a February newsletter. We have been
purposely hiding the fact that there was a reunion of the entire community in
Kenya during January and February. This was because of concerns over that
information getting through to the wrong people and causing serious problems
for us there. Kenya is a country where "lynchings" take place on a daily basis.
Crowds are easily stirred up with claims that someone is a witch or a satanist
or even just that they have stolen something. In one case, a man robbed
another and then started shouting to the crowd that the victim had robbed him,
and so the victim was killed by the crowd.

Anyway, the reunion was a resounding success in many ways. We had some
fantastic fellowship, were able to band together on a number of exciting
projects, and are even now in the midst of fitting in a luxurious (by JC
standards) holiday at the beach for a few days on our way back to our
respective countries.


Cherry was a special help, putting into practice much that she has learned over
the past few years about permaculture, to produce an oasis of vegetation even
in the midst of one of the driest periods we have experienced in Kenya. We now
have more than twenty different plants growing in our little "Holy Garden",
plus a small fishpond, which is attracting frogs, lizards, and worms, which add
to the natural ecosystem that makes the garden largely self-sustaining. We
have installed extra rainwater tanks, which are largely empty now, but which
should fill quickly later this month, when the rainy season begins. They
should hold enough (90,000 litres) to keep the garden watered even during the
driest seasons.

Farms all over Kenya have been dependent on artificial fertilisers for many
years, which have actually stripped the soil of other nutrients. However, we
have managed to get by without using any artificial fertilisers on our garden,
depending, instead on both human and vegetable waste. A nearby sugar factory
has a mountain of sugar cane pulp that is left to rot nearby, and for the cost
of trucking it to our garden we have been able to put about ten tons of the
pulp back into the ground. We are making this pulp available to local farmers
as well, in return for a small contribution toward the transport costs.


Another significant project that has come out of the reunion is an hour-long
documentary on the Jesus Christians, featuring a lot of our music, and covering
such topics as kidney donations, money throwaways, the Nullarbor walk,
freeganism, and the "cult" image. We hope to have that available for
distribution on the streets within just a couple of months. At this stage, it
looks like the title will be: "The JCs... more than just a band."


We sold the last of 20,000 "Amani Kenya" ("Peace, Kenya") T-shirts this month,
and then sold the silk screen supplies needed to produce more of them to a
local businessman, whom we hope will continue the project.


Local school teachers are being motivated to put more effort into promoting the
Easy English reading program, by being offered a choice between a new bicycle
or a sewing machine if their class can reach a certain reading target (based on
the age of the students in the class). We have already seen a marked
improvement in the effort being put in by the teachers, who are paid less than
$2 a day to teach classes which often have more than 100 students in them.

We had a near riot when we took hundreds of badly worn Easy English books to a
nearby town and set up a tiny stall on the footpath, where they were offered to
people for about six cents apiece. Over 700 books were sold in less than an
hour. It is very satisfying to know that even after the books (which are
recycled through student after student in the reading program) are so badly
worn that they are falling apart, parents in other towns will still fight to
get them so that their children can also benefit from the stories contained in


We failed to mention that way back in December, shipments of "Destroyers"
arrived in Australia and England, where a few thousand went out on the streets
before members left those countries for the reunion. Initial response has been
good, and we are looking forward to getting a shipment to Kenya, where we
expect it will be especially well received because so much of the story takes
place in a small village in Western Kenya.


There was a significant vote by the people attending the reunion to do away (at
least for the next year) with the concept of autonomous teams, and to re-join
with one another as a single worldwide community. We had an election to choose
two co-leaders for the overall community, with four candidates nominated. Alf
and Joe were convincingly elected, and have already set to work on some
exciting plans for a project in England, where most members of the community
will stop off on their way back to the other continents.


Joe's article on how consumption of luxury items in the West contributes to
malnutrition in developing countries (because their land is used to feed our
appetite for things like coffee, tea, sugar, chocolate, sugar, and meat, and is
thus not available for growing basic necessities) has led to numerous intense
discussions during the reunion. As a consequence, we have been experimenting
with cutting out or cutting down on each of these items. Bin-raiding outside
of Kenya often enables us to consume luxury items without having to feel guilt
about contributing to the problems that their growth represents. However, we
want to seriously consider the implications if we choose to purchase any of
them, and to take appropriate action. We felt that it would be unfair to
impose restrictions on the Kenya team, however, as they already get by with
minimal luxuries.

Because we knew there would be serious food shortages in Kenya this month,
people coming over all packed their suitcases and hand luggage full of food
items. Overall, we managed to transport more than a TON (literally!) of food,
including more than 300kg of rice alone. Items brought over included lentils,
powdered potatoes, salamis, pasta, and cheese.

There was also discussion about the implications of international air travel
for so many of us, and how it affects our carbon footprint. We had seriously
been considering cutting out all international travel after the reunion, until
someone came up with the idea of approaching airlines and offering to go on
standby, so that we would only travel on planes which would be destined to fly
with empty seats if we did not use them. In the past, we have often done
something like this, in that we would volunteer to be "bumped" if there were
too many passengers for a flight. But under international rules, the airline
is obligated to give us a free ticket for our next flight when they do that,
and so, on a very large scale, it would still contribute to the airlines adding
additional flights, to save on having to pay such penalties. We are now
thinking of approaching airlines and suggesting that they actually advertise
"green tickets" which are more or less used at the airline's discretion for
lightly booked flights, such as go out early in the morning, or early in the
week. This is one way for conscientious greenies to travel without
contributing significantly to the carbon footprint.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: March 03, 2009 11:40PM

Dear Matilda,

(Clearly the most significant reduction that the JC's could make in their overall "carbon footprint" would be eliminate forthright the vile and putrid gas-bagging of one David John McKay....however.....) is an inspiring article about a family that genuinely achieve EVERYTHING that the JC's claim about themselves,


without, I note;

Deceitfully misrepresenting themselves;

Looking to appropriate the life-savings of any individual who "commits" to them
(the same monies then falling under the control of the appointed "leader"),

Denying "members" access to private communication with those external to their organization or to be able to travel freely
or to have any independent income or livelyhood that is not under the control of their leader or appointed cronies
(and requiring them to lie about this restriction, i.e. by falsely claiming that they don't "want" such freedoms)

Blackmailing dissenting relatives with "access" to their children in order to silence them

Engaging in smear campaigns of any enemies, they might create for themselves

Manipulating members of their "family" with the fear of the "eternal consequences" of deviating from the direction of an "Apostle"

Informing members that their own "personality" is an indication of their rebellion against submission to "God"...hence teaching those under their control to learn to repress their own feelings, and to learn to describe themselves as "happy" spending their lives, winning the flitteringly brief and condesending "approval" of their leader, masking their disatisfaction as "service to God"

Public humiliation of non-conformists through grievance procedures and the constant threat of expulsion from "Gods Kingdom"

Dear Joe,

Thank you for your recent thoughts. I'm pleased to here of your concerns for the welfare of the world....from the benefit of the example provided, you patently do NOT need to be in servitude to David McKay in order to achieve these aims....and the fact that you think you feel obliged to remain in such servitude reveals that, actually, what you state to be your "aims" are only so much window-dressing to serve as "sheeps-clothing" for the wolf McKay in his predation of others with "ideals" of any nature..

.....(i.e you are deceptively trying to interest those external to your cult, to investigate the JC's and explore membership)...

As David has often remarked....whoever you give your time for, whoever you work in fact worship!

....and thus, by your leaders own teachings, you patently "worship" David McKay, Joe!!

.....but you know Joe, when you really think of it, how much a "better world" it would be for David McKay if people like the Delanys just up and died....then the dishonesty with which David crows about himself, inside the JC's, (that "no-one" else could do it without him), would be so much more difficult to disprove....and the vanity that you have about your role in the world, and the Godless pretence you engage in, would so much easier to sustain, wouldn't it.....

.....perhaps you could join David in prayer to Satan, when he secretly hopes as much, at the next "listening" session!!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: March 11, 2009 07:10AM

Malcolm Wesley WREST
Dear Zeusor,

...the "empowerment charts" and "mental graphs" are simply "goads", David employs to delude those in subjection to him, that any discontent that they may be feeling, is in fact their "own fault" (One wonders, could David have been secretly studying "medicinal" psychology under the tuition of Christopher Hansard all these years)...
.....they are manipulative devices to discourage individuals from actively reflecting upon their circumstances objectively...

.....i.e. I'm unhappy...

..........this "unhappiness" is a device of the devil to prevent me from serving God...

..........I will record my moments of "unhappiness" and will learn how to refuse to even contemplate such ideas.

..........I will force myself to associate happiness with achieving the goals set before me (e.g literature distribution)

..........thus I will become more "effective" in my service to David.....(whoops, ...I mean "God"!!)

Say, lookie here: I found out some stuff about the Empowerment Charts/Mental Graphs.

These charts and graphs the JCs do are similar to the Family's practice of completing OHRs, or "Open Heart Reports." This is yet another practice DM seems to have appropriated from the Family.


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: March 12, 2009 12:16AM

Dear Zeusor,

Hi! Thank you for the links....the more I learn of how much David stealthily purloined for his own cult, from the practices of Berg, the "cheaper" and "cheaper" he looks....What an utter fraud!!

This (from the latest newsletter) also interests me!


There was a significant vote by the people attending the reunion to do away (at
least for the next year) with the concept of autonomous teams, and to re-join
with one another as a single worldwide community. We had an election to choose
two co-leaders for the overall community, with four candidates nominated. Alf
and Joe were convincingly elected, and have already set to work on some
exciting plans for a project in England, where most members of the community
will stop off on their way back to the other continents.

From David's (sick) perspective, the kidney harvesting has not really succeeded for him....while it has made thousands and thousands ("cost reimbursements" for the individual JesusChristians that of course would have gone into the "common" purse (that David controls!)..) and bought gratuitious has failed to to win "souls" (new members!!) for the cause....(and of course, no new "souls" new "kidneys" to hock....)

I am again reminded that kidney donations and English tuition and freeganism (and all the other "isms") he may claim to champion, are all of course ultimately of no consequence to David....he wants nothing less than young people whose lives of unpaid service and cringing homage, he may feed off....the kidney donations have patently failed to deliver these for him...

....likewise the work in Kenya is only so much window-dressing (in David's eyes) to provide an "example" of the "Kingdom of Heaven" that "inspires" the vulnerable to become another small cog in his Kingdom...if the vulnerable are NOT walking in the door, the project has simply flopped as far as David is concerned!

...and David is obviously so concerned at the lack of new "paid up" membership (Lisa and the other voyeurs on his own website, aren't going to "sign up" anytime soon...while they are tolerated, for the use David can put them to, they are ultimately unsatisfactory for him)....that he has no promulgated the "suggestion" (that I see has been duly acted upon) that abandoning the erstwhile "cells" and returning to a community "enmasse" would better "spread the word" (about David!) more effectively...(no doubt anyone who dared to too stenuously debate this "suggestion" was ultimately found to be "out of the spirit" and then publicly denigrated before all those present for their lack of "humility" in not submitting to the will of the "community"......)

David will be looking to generate more media coverage, more readily with a larger number of (near)mindless bodies more readily at his immediate fingertips.

(The wolf-pack will better be able to run more prey to ground in larger numbers to satiate the hunger of the Alpha male)....saturation coverage of a smaller area with literature...the "appearance" of a more "credible" organization with which to deceive individuals into crediting him with some nature of "authority"....larger attention drawing stunts...

...all these are reasons why David would "marshall his forces"'s "stunt" time again!

But Zeusor, can't you see the fun in this!!

Lets open a competition to see who can accurately guess where they will relocate!!

(May I go first?.....)

My guess!!...the UK!.....(for the following reasons)

There is a ready home there of sorts.

The American team and the Australian team currently lack the permanency and comfort of a dwelling suitable for an "Apostle" ...(Vans are only for the common peasantry of the JesusChristians).

The UK offers potential vicitms who are likely to be relatively wealthy. (Africans in general are useless to David. They have no ready resources to contribute to the general coffers when they "forsake all" and David considers them unreliable at best (By the way, are Betty and her son still involved do you, know Zeusor).....this is of course why the major cults are all concentrated in the wealthier nations.... blood sucking parasites are attracted to healthier hosts)....hence Kenya is not an option.

The media in the UK is relatively untapped and hence are likely to be more receptive! (The Australian media are again wise to David's self promotional activities)

An entirely new location would have the same media advantage for David, but involve far more costs in setting up...(...and Canada, Ireland and NZ have "secondary" international media prominence in comparison to the US, the UK and Australia...)

Hence the UK it is!

.....physical comfort, relatively wealthy new underlings, and better potential self - aggrandizement through the media......

......everything that David could want out of life!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: cultmalleus ()
Date: March 12, 2009 09:06PM

Back again after a long time. An interesting newsletter.
Bit like the "Time warp". A step to the left...then a step to the right... Now they're going all Greeny and Permaculture; What happened to "Beware the New Age" Dave?
The aim of course is to disorient the followers with contradictory ideas until only one principle remains; the Fuhrerprinzip.

I had a look at their new "Destroyers" drivel. I'm probably the third person in the world to read any substantial part of it. Dave, your book is being critically reviewed (by me)! Exciting, isn't it!

It's basically the story of how a young African gets corrupted by the EVIL MICRO-CREDIT which is the slippery slope leading to the END OF THE WORLD! I'd like your thoughts, Jack, given that you have studied literature and writing at tertiary level, what you think of his writing skills. It's too much drudgery to read the whole lot of it, but if you could just analyse his skills (ignoring the Hubbardistic content) in a completely neutral way, I would be very interested.

I was reflecting on the Bible verse, "by their fruits you shall know them" and how this relates to the way most of us live, in reward based systems, versus the despotic system of the JC's where motivations are based on avoiding punishment (the ultimate one being their abstract "Hell", the penultimate one being expulsion, one of the lesser Hells being a good whipping, or fasting, or a grievance, etc). What fruits do reward based systems lead to, and what fruits do punishment based systems lead to?

"The Destroyers" plotline trots out the usual Communist line of capitalist expropriation of workers labour without examining the role of efficiencies gained by using sensible credit and reward based motivations. By their fruits you shall know them: African countries pursuing a Communist style of economic development by punishment have increasingly become centralised and despotic, leading to low motivation and the destruction of the economy, (witness Zimbabwe) while free enterprise in general, relying on the motivation of reward, has lead to whole countries breaking free of crushing poverty (witness most of Asia). While terrible inequalities still exist, overall living standards for almost everyone, including the extremely poor, have improved under free enterprise systems. Of course, the best systems utilise the engine of free enterprise whilst regulating, taxing and redistributing it in order to produce the maximum social benefit.

Sure, terrible mistakes are made. The greed of corrupt bankers causing the current economic crisis is a terrible thing. But I would rather live in the US than Zimbabwe.

Surely the JC's only bring ridicule on themselves by linking such a positive thing as microcredit with the Antichrist!

"A young man who is not a Communist has no heart, a mature man who is still a Communist has no head". Unless his head is Dave McKay the Anti-Head!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: March 12, 2009 11:31PM

Dear Cultmalleous,

Thank you for the witty and perspicious review...definitely, you have diligently dissected the drivel. I tried the link that you provided and (as usual!) received a warning about malware on the site (they STILL haven't eliminated this problem??....David needs to soundly berate Zoe (Lisa Simpson) in front of a hand picked audience for several hours without interruption...and then demand she not eat until she has rebuked the compromising spirit that could even contemplate rendering such manifestly "lesser" service to God's Apostle )...

....Can I simply ignore this warning? How serious is the virus they have on their site?

I fully agree that the shallowness of the analysis is indicative of the infantile intellect behind it. It is actually little different from the ideas (David stole from others) in another little tract I actually personally distributed titled "A New Economic Policy", in the early 1980's, if you happen to know the publication.

In some thirty years David McKay has NOT progressed an iota further in intellectual depth!!

Still, as you point out. the intention of it, is after all, simply to firstly attract those who are questioning society, then to progressively disorient them, in increasing isolation from any references external to the JC's....until they are content to simply grasp nothing other than the "Fuhrerprinzip" ....

(very NICE turn of phrase there ARE well read, indeed!!)....

....slogan-eering and empty cliches certainly suffice for David's real purposes,
....endeavouring to ever so briefly persuade the naive to consider him worth some more time.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2009 11:34PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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