Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: January 03, 2011 09:32PM
Blackhat, you seem very personally invested in giving Davejc a pass, minimising the damage he has done and will continue to do as long as he draws breath.
Care to tell us why this is so important to you that you must attack the very people who are attempting to expose Davejc's methods and so warn, not only his current band of followers--who are currently far from free of his influence----but any others who might unwarily get caught in his tangled web?
Care to tell us why you have no real interest in helping his current and future victims see the reality of how they are caught and held by Davejc?
Care to tell us why this is so important to you that you must attack the very people who are attempting to expose Davejc's methods and so warn, not only his current band of followers--who are currently far from free of his influence----but any others who might unwarily get caught in his tangled web?
Care to tell us why you have no real interest in helping his current and future victims see the reality of how they are caught and held by Davejc?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:23PM
The Deakin incident was briefly mentioned by Apostate, an ex-er who seems to have a good clear grasp on Davejc and his games:
[jcs.xjcs.org]
The relevant comment( my emphasis):
'I have already clearly stated that I DO NOT consider that Dave is a paedophile or that he supports such people. Where I do have issue with Dave in this regard is that he tends to minimise the impact upon victims of such things due to him trying to find that radical sermon or that point of identification. His initial statement about there being no force involved in the molestation of children was a *stupid* statement. He put his foot in his mouth, and it, to my mind, does not get any better when he tries to reword it and say that he was referring to “physical” force. Of course there is physical force involved in the act of child molestation. It beggars belief that he can make such comments and then feel offended that he is being challenged on them.
But this is that part of Dave that always rankled me and I am sure others. Those who worked closely with him would have been aware of the times they occurred. An example being one time in Deakin when he said something about masturbation to a child, which resulted in an irate father turning up. Of course Dave wasn’t seeking to set the child up. It was his pat response at the time to people who asked him if he had the “Holy Spirit”, so he would ask in response “Do you masturbate”. He would do this to try and drive his point home that such things are meant to be private; but really there are better ways to communicate such a message. Dave would not heed those who would seek to moderate him making such comments as he thrived on the controversy it generated.
But back to the intrusive crossing boundary lines manner of how Dave would lead. No doubt you would have seen the mention of this on the JC forum… when he disconnected the batteries on a child’s electric wheel chair to stop him getting away from him; much to the horror of the child’s mother. Dave’s response to this has been many, none of which justify him exacting that level of intrusiveness. The mother was clearly using the “no” word in her challenges of Dave regarding such behaviour. But to Dave this would translate into her poor parenting of the child’s “unruly” manner.'
This whole discussion is really about the natural boundaries of other people that Davejc has given himself Divine Authority to aggressively trample across, to serve his own needs. It is always about serving the needs of Davejc and other people are therefore viewed as just grist to the mill of Davejc's needs.
Davejc doesn't see other people as individual humans with rights and concerns of their own, he sees them as fodder to satisfy his own immature emotional needs for control and domination of his restricted world view.
The result for the other people of this very intrusive habitual behaviour of Davejc is an undermining of the self-concept--which then allows Davejc to control the people he has undermined. Game set and match to Davejc.
All covert predators operate in a similar fashion, and that does include paedophiles who have probably refined the techniques of seduction, control and manipulation of the reality of the victim to the finest art.
I think Davejc recognises this, the recognition was his lightbulb moment during his time with the CoG--it gave him the key to getting his immature needs met with little opposition and to controlling his tiny world for the rest of his life.
Causing damage to other humans, whether it be trapping them into servitude, disposing of their body parts, messing with their desire to serve god, turning innocent, curious children into frightened and disillusioned victims or any other of the list of davejc's results------has always been secondary to creating controversy and public recognition for the Divine Authority of Davejc----because he is a hollow man with no concrete identity as a human being. He exists, in his eyes, only as a feature on the Jeremy Kyle show, a tabloid expose, or lord of all he surveys on his lunatic website.
This is not a pity-plea for poor Davejc, he remains a danger.
Corboys earlier link is helpful in how to deal with such dangerous people:
[abusesanctuary.blogspot.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 10:36PM by Stoic.
[jcs.xjcs.org]
The relevant comment( my emphasis):
'I have already clearly stated that I DO NOT consider that Dave is a paedophile or that he supports such people. Where I do have issue with Dave in this regard is that he tends to minimise the impact upon victims of such things due to him trying to find that radical sermon or that point of identification. His initial statement about there being no force involved in the molestation of children was a *stupid* statement. He put his foot in his mouth, and it, to my mind, does not get any better when he tries to reword it and say that he was referring to “physical” force. Of course there is physical force involved in the act of child molestation. It beggars belief that he can make such comments and then feel offended that he is being challenged on them.
But this is that part of Dave that always rankled me and I am sure others. Those who worked closely with him would have been aware of the times they occurred. An example being one time in Deakin when he said something about masturbation to a child, which resulted in an irate father turning up. Of course Dave wasn’t seeking to set the child up. It was his pat response at the time to people who asked him if he had the “Holy Spirit”, so he would ask in response “Do you masturbate”. He would do this to try and drive his point home that such things are meant to be private; but really there are better ways to communicate such a message. Dave would not heed those who would seek to moderate him making such comments as he thrived on the controversy it generated.
But back to the intrusive crossing boundary lines manner of how Dave would lead. No doubt you would have seen the mention of this on the JC forum… when he disconnected the batteries on a child’s electric wheel chair to stop him getting away from him; much to the horror of the child’s mother. Dave’s response to this has been many, none of which justify him exacting that level of intrusiveness. The mother was clearly using the “no” word in her challenges of Dave regarding such behaviour. But to Dave this would translate into her poor parenting of the child’s “unruly” manner.'
This whole discussion is really about the natural boundaries of other people that Davejc has given himself Divine Authority to aggressively trample across, to serve his own needs. It is always about serving the needs of Davejc and other people are therefore viewed as just grist to the mill of Davejc's needs.
Davejc doesn't see other people as individual humans with rights and concerns of their own, he sees them as fodder to satisfy his own immature emotional needs for control and domination of his restricted world view.
The result for the other people of this very intrusive habitual behaviour of Davejc is an undermining of the self-concept--which then allows Davejc to control the people he has undermined. Game set and match to Davejc.
All covert predators operate in a similar fashion, and that does include paedophiles who have probably refined the techniques of seduction, control and manipulation of the reality of the victim to the finest art.
I think Davejc recognises this, the recognition was his lightbulb moment during his time with the CoG--it gave him the key to getting his immature needs met with little opposition and to controlling his tiny world for the rest of his life.
Causing damage to other humans, whether it be trapping them into servitude, disposing of their body parts, messing with their desire to serve god, turning innocent, curious children into frightened and disillusioned victims or any other of the list of davejc's results------has always been secondary to creating controversy and public recognition for the Divine Authority of Davejc----because he is a hollow man with no concrete identity as a human being. He exists, in his eyes, only as a feature on the Jeremy Kyle show, a tabloid expose, or lord of all he surveys on his lunatic website.
This is not a pity-plea for poor Davejc, he remains a danger.
Corboys earlier link is helpful in how to deal with such dangerous people:
[abusesanctuary.blogspot.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 10:36PM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:32PM
Quote
Stoic
Blackhat, you seem very personally invested in giving Davejc a pass, minimising the damage he has done and will continue to do as long as he draws breath.
Care to tell us why this is so important to you that you must attack the very people who are attempting to expose Davejc's methods and so warn, not only his current band of followers--who are currently far from free of his influence----but any others who might unwarily get caught in his tangled web?
Care to tell us why you have no real interest in helping his current and future victims see the reality of how they are caught and held by Davejc?
Blackhat has been sending me private messages again in which she is accusing Apollo and I of being the same guy.
YOU ARE WRONG. PERIOD. WE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. END OF STORY. NOW PISS OFF.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:33PM
Prophetic Charisma by Len Oakes is full of insights and descriptions. (Check www.bookfinders.com--a new edition of the book may have since come out)
Here is one such vignette.
Quoted from the Googlebooks link
[books.google.com]
And, earlier from a transcript typed onto the Rick Ross message board.
Later on page 90 there is this:
To get more, go to the Googlebooks link, supplied by Stoic and dive in.
Note--if you really want to take this further, Oakes has published a new book Charismatic Personalities, as of 2010--Australian Academic Press, ISBN Softcover, ISBN 1921513462
Here is one such vignette.
Quoted from the Googlebooks link
[books.google.com]
And, earlier from a transcript typed onto the Rick Ross message board.
Quote
There isnt an offical Guru U/Hogwart Academy but it appears that many gurus follow a rather typical developmental trajectory. Here is a copy of a review I wrote for someone else
Prophetic Charisma by Len Oakes.* He traces how charismatic leaders develop, their special narcissistic mindset, and how they acquire their skills. His book would be especially helpful for exit counselors and also to journalists who interview cult leaders, and attorneys who may have to cross examine leaders in court or when taking depositions. However, Oakes studied only leaders who used charismatic interpersonal relationship as the medium of influence. He did not examine leaders who work through the LGAT format. The book is written for academics and clincians, but is readable with a bibliography that goes up to the mid-1990s.
I had repeated shocks of recognition as I read this book. Oakes is able to convey the uncanny impression cult leaders make, gives precise descriptions of their cognitive quirks, emotional blindspots, and sees all this as ways the leaders compensate for an impovrished inner life. I think this material would be especially good for anyone who must question a leader and be able to persist in that line of questioning despite the leader's attempts to invalidate, bluster or evade.
(*I got my copy from [www.alibris.com--took] about 3 weeks to arrive.)
Oakes is a clinical psychologist, based in Australia. He was a member of a community led by a charismatic leader, eventually left, but remained on sufficiently good terms that he was able to live at the community while in graduate school and interviewed that leader and about ten other charismatic leaders.
He is able to convey how fascinating these people are, but that underneath the facade of power, they are desperate to avoid narcissistic collapse, and were driven to develop a high degree of social insight-and manipulative skills. At the same time Oakes gives precise descriptions of the leader's manipulativeness, their essential emotional coldness and the way their arrogance often leads them and their groups to destruction. Oakes is compassionate, an excellent observer, but he does not let these people off the hook. In a way Oakes continued the legacy of Leon Festinger who combined participant observation and social psychology when he did the research on a UFO group described in his 'cult classic' When Prophecy Fails.
Oakes concentrated on groups centered around a leader, rather than a personal change technology. Thus, he has little to say about thought reform but a great deal to say about how personal relationship and charisma is used to fascinate and recruit. His take is that both the leaders and their followers came to each other to satisfy covert needs.
Oake's take is that the leaders all suffered from narcissistic personality disorder. He gives a great overview of the theoretical material concerning narcissism and is especially good at tracing how these people become driven to transform personal deficits into a quasi-feral talent for reading and manipulating people. If you read him, he will prepare you for the eerie impression these leaders make, gives insights into how thier minds work. His description of 'thinking in cliches' as a way to seem omniscient was especially fascinating.
And Oakes also mentions that always, the leaders have spent time acquiring skills in a variety of occupations that eventually prepare them for the role of prophet and equip them with the 'job skills' needed to run a community and play baby sitter to followers. These people do not spring from nowhere.
Here is a choice quote:
`A common manipulative strategy used by the leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponent's (or prospective Landmark recruit's--my parenthesis) personal insecurity.
In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency or uncertainty.
(Corboy--anyone who is a nice person, and not a psychopath is going to have areas of hesitation and uncertaintly)
This was not always a flaw of logic or an error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader (or landmark recuiter!-my note) knew little and would ahve been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent (potential Landmark recruit) that the leaders/recruiter's exquisite social perception targeted. In some way, often by metacommenting (Oakes means commenting about your manner of saying something, rather than responding to what you have said--my note), the meaning of whatever insecurity involved was exposed.
(Corboy note--and once one gets sidetracked into a discussion of meaning, a manipulator has you on toast)
Typically what was said was an observation that the opponent seemed "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what all this is about."
In this way, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seducatively to expand upon the very point of weakness. Or the leader(recruiter) claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying the opponent was not making sense. This usually led to a further exposure (confessional of personal weakness or perplexity-my note) until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At this point, a well timed, dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate...'
[forum.culteducation.com]
(Oakes pp 89-90
Later on page 90 there is this:
Quote
A stunning example occurred during this study when Free-Love Farley (Oakes pseudonym for one such leader) demolished a building inspector who had visited unexpectedly and demanded to examine some recent construction.
It was clear that Farley did not know the various fine points of the regulations that governed such inspections, and also that he had something to hide, but by drawing the inspector out and by focusing on (the inspectors) paralinguistic performances, he soon had the man on the defensive.
Eventually Farley persuaded the official to return to his office to re-check some detail, assuring him that when this had been done, the inspection could proceed. Presumably by then the issue in question would have been taken care of. (Oakes, Prophetic Charisma 1997 , page 90
To get more, go to the Googlebooks link, supplied by Stoic and dive in.
Note--if you really want to take this further, Oakes has published a new book Charismatic Personalities, as of 2010--Australian Academic Press, ISBN Softcover, ISBN 1921513462
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:39PM
I added a bit to my earlier post above and am going to repeat it here:
Causing damage to other humans, whether it be trapping them into servitude, disposing of their body parts, messing with their desire to serve god, turning innocent, curious children into frightened and disillusioned victims or any other of the list of davejc's results------has always been secondary to creating controversy and public recognition for the Divine Authority of Davejc----because he is a hollow man with no concrete identity as a human being. He exists, in his eyes, only as a feature on the Jeremy Kyle show, a tabloid expose, or lord of all he surveys on his lunatic website.
This is not a pity-plea for poor Davejc, he remains a danger.
Corboys earlier link is helpful in how to deal with such dangerous people:
[abusesanctuary.blogspot.com]
Causing damage to other humans, whether it be trapping them into servitude, disposing of their body parts, messing with their desire to serve god, turning innocent, curious children into frightened and disillusioned victims or any other of the list of davejc's results------has always been secondary to creating controversy and public recognition for the Divine Authority of Davejc----because he is a hollow man with no concrete identity as a human being. He exists, in his eyes, only as a feature on the Jeremy Kyle show, a tabloid expose, or lord of all he surveys on his lunatic website.
This is not a pity-plea for poor Davejc, he remains a danger.
Corboys earlier link is helpful in how to deal with such dangerous people:
[abusesanctuary.blogspot.com]
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:39PM
Blackhat, why are you here trying to control and undermine this thread in the same way that Nick was trying to control and undermine the thread the other day? When are you going to just stand up to DM for once and tell him "NO!"? If you are not planning on doing so, then I say you are more or less a trollish busybody, and a hindrance.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 10:42PM by zeuszor.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 10:42PM by zeuszor.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:46PM
Why are you saying I am messaging you? If you are getting messages, they are not from me.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:47PM
The God of Dave McKay punishes and fails to forgive. DM constantly criticizes the faults, weak points and lacks of denominational churches. DM has a knack for identifying the inconsistencies and hypocrisies within the churches, but he also belittles them. DM puts words to what many people, especially young people, feel. There is still this 60’s and early 70’s-style rebellious streak that is still in him; he doesn’t want to cooperate with The System. He continually berates many Christians, even though a considerable number of them have over the years aided him in his work of forming and maintaining the JCs.
If a cult leader maintains control of a follower’s mind, then they can manipulate them. They don’t need to go after their money directly or steal from them. If the cult leader exerts and continues control over the followers mind, then he has access to everything that belongs to the follower.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is my opinion of DM. Every former member that I have read of expresses the same thought about DM and his lust for power and control. The early JCs began with some honorable intentions, but as DM garnered more and more power he became blinded. He is leading all the JCs into a ditch.
In making these statements I am not interested in seeking revenge nor am I trying to be cruel. I am trying to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We all know that the JCs will never change as long as DM is the sole uncontested leader. DM may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes (or they may "graduate") but the basic theme will always be obedience to DM and his teachings. DM exercises sole unchallenged control over the JCs with no one to keep him in check. DM promotes the idea of checks and balances in his teachings, and that no one person should ever exert sole leadership of a religious movement or community, but his own lifestyle runs contrary to his teachings.
The JCs maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the JCs are for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Jesus only grants protection to them. Young adults leave their parents to join with the JCs. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly tempered with, as well. Because people can’t implicitly obey David McKay some have attempted suicide. Some ex-members have reportedly committed suicide. Although the JCs outwardly promote personal relationships with non-members, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish. Many remain in the JCs 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with the JCs? This is the visible fruit of the Jesus Christians.
If a cult leader maintains control of a follower’s mind, then they can manipulate them. They don’t need to go after their money directly or steal from them. If the cult leader exerts and continues control over the followers mind, then he has access to everything that belongs to the follower.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is my opinion of DM. Every former member that I have read of expresses the same thought about DM and his lust for power and control. The early JCs began with some honorable intentions, but as DM garnered more and more power he became blinded. He is leading all the JCs into a ditch.
In making these statements I am not interested in seeking revenge nor am I trying to be cruel. I am trying to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We all know that the JCs will never change as long as DM is the sole uncontested leader. DM may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes (or they may "graduate") but the basic theme will always be obedience to DM and his teachings. DM exercises sole unchallenged control over the JCs with no one to keep him in check. DM promotes the idea of checks and balances in his teachings, and that no one person should ever exert sole leadership of a religious movement or community, but his own lifestyle runs contrary to his teachings.
The JCs maintains its own criteria for judging fruit which states “Judge a tree by its fruit. If the fruit is rotten the tree is rotten.” They proclaim that the JCs are for everyone and that those who fail to respond will suffer physical and spiritual death. Community members believe that Jesus only grants protection to them. Young adults leave their parents to join with the JCs. The man and wife relationship is repeatedly tempered with, as well. Because people can’t implicitly obey David McKay some have attempted suicide. Some ex-members have reportedly committed suicide. Although the JCs outwardly promote personal relationships with non-members, these friendships are not allowed to develop or flourish. Many remain in the JCs 5 or 10 years, or for however long, and then get kicked out or they may decide to leave which reduces them to zero financially, spiritually and emotionally. What kind of shape are these folks reduced to after contact with the JCs? This is the visible fruit of the Jesus Christians.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:48PM
Quote
Blackhat
Why are you saying I am messaging you? If you are getting messages, they are not from me.
Go away, Anita. You are pretty much just being an XJC troll at this point.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: January 03, 2011 10:49PM
Blackhat:
At this point it seems to me that Zeuszor is right in his observation concerning your conduct on this thread.
You do appear to be attempting to undermine this thread whenever you think it may be possible.
You claim that "Dave is broke and has lost his community, who have dumped him."
However, this has not been objectively proven, but rather an unsubstantiated claim based upon rumor.
Again, until members return home to their families without any evidence of further control this claim appears to be false.
You have also been repeatedly warned about personal attacks.
This is absolutely your last warning.
At this point it seems to me that Zeuszor is right in his observation concerning your conduct on this thread.
You do appear to be attempting to undermine this thread whenever you think it may be possible.
You claim that "Dave is broke and has lost his community, who have dumped him."
However, this has not been objectively proven, but rather an unsubstantiated claim based upon rumor.
Again, until members return home to their families without any evidence of further control this claim appears to be false.
You have also been repeatedly warned about personal attacks.
This is absolutely your last warning.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.