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rrmoderator
Stoic's analysis seems to be spot on.

Whatever is happening seems to be no more than a control device used by McKay to manipulate the JCs.

Here's another article in that same vein:

[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Thirty is a Dangerous Age

(1992)

A 60's radical once said, "Never trust anyone over 30." By the time most people reach 30, they have exhausted the ideals of youth. And by the time utopian communities exceed 30 members, they usually begin to stray from their original goals.

Our membership has now reached 30, and each year more of us celebrate 30th birthdays. So where are we heading, and what are our chances of maintaining ideological purity?

We would like to say that God is not limited by such statistics. But we are not so sure that God will exempt us from this harsh reality. A study of Paul's letters to the church in Corinth shows that he was dealing with some pretty tough nuts in his efforts to build the kingdom of God. They easily misunderstood, quickly forgot, and often willingly rebelled against his leadership. We look back at this and wonder why Paul bothered persevering with such hopeless cases.

After all, we have not had to put up with such hard cases. For more than ten years we have enjoyed unbelievable unity, with almost no incidents of theft, sexual misconduct, or battles over leadership. We have experienced pure democracy and pure communism, with an overall feeling of mutual trust and equal power in decision-making.

The most important ingredient in the formula for such success is simply to choose your members carefully. By requiring people to give up everything they own, we cut the field down to those who are willing to confront the root of all evil in their own lives. And by continuing to live by faith (i.e. by refusing to let money be our goal in what we do), we have avoided other traps that lead to hypocrisy.

But we can only relate deeply to about 30 other people. The "great big happy family" begins to become just another organisation as we grow larger. For example, every one of us writes a general letter to the rest of the group each week. But mail calls can now take up half a day. And business meetings involving all members and giving plenty of time for full discussion of each issue can take many hours each week. As we continue to grow, something has to give.

So what should be our approach to the future?

A clue comes in what appears to be two levels of organisation recognised by Jesus in his own ministry.

Jesus and his 12 disciples represented a utopian society. They maintained group purity through the grievance system (Matthew 18:15-17). Problems were dealt with more or less on the spot... to the point of excommunication if necessary. The standards were high and dissenters were urged to go elsewhere. (Luke 11:23) Little weeds were plucked out before they had a chance to spread. And in this way he maintained the same high ideals and unity that we have experienced.

But there was a second, more tolerant level of association, where Jesus said, "If you are not against us, you must be for us." (Luke 9:50) This he applied to other groups working in some sort of a loose association with himself. He did not have full control over their activities, but that did not seem to bother him.

If we apply this in our present circumstances, it may be that we can expect to grow to the point where we will divide into a number of different communities, over which we will not have so much control. Some of those communities may make serious mistakes and may even go completely off the rails. But, unless we are actually participating members of them, we will not be able to judge as swiftly or as harshly as we could within our own closer fellowship.

This may be what Jesus was predicting in his parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30). After his ascension to heaven, his utopian community grew into a much bigger one, where 'weeds' managed to take root and spread. The solution was not always to pull out the weeds. If nothing else, it may have been to transplant the wheat, in the sense of sincere people banding together to form a new fellowship.

This is more or less what we have done with regard to the institutional church. Because the grievance system is not used by local assemblies, we could not, even in very small groups, confront the weeds in the churches, and deal with them. So we pulled ourselves out and formed a new garden of our own.

We cannot deny that there are sincere individuals in the institutional church; but they are outnumbered, and the weeds are growing pretty much unchecked. Ripping out all of the weeds would cause more damage than simply starting over (as we have done).

A prophet (or critic) is usually one who excommunicates himself or herself (or more appropriately, the prophet excommunicates the whole body) and steps outside with a call to renewed idealism. We have done that with the institutional church; and in varying degrees, we will probably have to do that with one another if we continue to grow.

We must seek to enforce Christian ideals within each individual community. But we can only be really certain about the 20-30 people with whom we are working most directly. For the others, we may have to let God (John 21:22) or other appointed leaders take final responsibility.

[jcs.xjcs.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 04:41AM by zeuszor.

'A prophet (or critic) is usually one who excommunicates himself or herself (or more appropriately, the prophet excommunicates the whole body) and steps outside with a call to renewed idealism. We have done that with the institutional church; and in varying degrees, we will probably have to do that with one another if we continue to grow.'

As you have pointed out Zeuszor, its also the tactic employed by the Family aka Children of God when continuing as they are has become unsustainable for a variety of reasons.

Reinvent themselves as the new improved version--like endlessly new improved Tide, (or whatever detergent/soap powder you favour) that can remove stains you didn't know you had.

The new soap additives don't really do anything but it gives an excuse to whip up a renewed advertising campaign for what is a very mundane and unexciting purchase for most people.

Davejc, the prophet, has excommunicated the whole body of the JC's and will shortly rise from the ashes like a phoenix, in a new blaze of glory.
Rinse and repeat.


Of course as people get older they generally become a bit more secure in themselves and the loss of youthful idealism means that Davejc loses some of his deathgrip.
To any JC's over the magic age of 30--I'd put in some work on the CV because there is only room for one aging prophet in any group.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 04:54AM by Stoic.

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Blackhat

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Apollo
I will not stand back and allow it to happen again.

Grand words, Apollo. So what are you going to do? Dave is broke and has lost his community, who have dumped him.

Are you going to sit there in Scotland and monitor Dave in Australia, to make sure he doesn't do it again? (whatever it is, maybe yell "do you masturbate" at some kid like an old senile degenerate) The world clearly needs protection from monsters like this, and so I think you are wise to put aside your life to pursue this.....

What I hope to do is provide as much information on the man as possible. This is what Mal and Zeuszor have been doing for years and it has been successful. Their numbers have dropped year on year. Potential victims/followers will visit this forum, make no doubt about it. In most cases these people will hopefully realise that joining the cult is not an appropriate path to take.

McKay wants us to believe the cult is no more. He wants us to believe that he's going senile. He wants us to believe that he's broke. That is his attempt to control his critics. He certainly won't control me that easily. I need to see solid evidence which suggests the cult is no longer operating and quite frankly, while he's walking this earth i will consider him to be a threat.

Why are you focusing on the masturbation incident? In the grand scheme of things that's insignificant. It's just one of many disturbing incidents which have been highlighted. Ultimately we want to make sure nobody else has to be put through the living hell which families like the Johnson's and the Croft's have been put through.

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zeuszor

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Stoic
Blackhat, you seem very personally invested in giving Davejc a pass, minimising the damage he has done and will continue to do as long as he draws breath.

Care to tell us why this is so important to you that you must attack the very people who are attempting to expose Davejc's methods and so warn, not only his current band of followers--who are currently far from free of his influence----but any others who might unwarily get caught in his tangled web?

Care to tell us why you have no real interest in helping his current and future victims see the reality of how they are caught and held by Davejc?

Blackhat has been sending me private messages again in which she is accusing Apollo and I of being the same guy.

YOU ARE WRONG. PERIOD. WE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE. END OF STORY. NOW PISS OFF.

I'm getting sick and tired of the constant accusations. She's now taken to harassing me on another site also.

I feel as if she's trying to control what i can and can't say. Nothing i say ever meets Blackhat's standards.

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Blackhat
Stoic, I can only ask you to do your homework. I don't view Dave's damage as being to children and of a sexual nature. I believe this to be a beat-up by new-comers to this forum.

As i'm a newcomer i'll respond.

I've done my homework and it appears that Dave McKay has a very soft approach towards paedophile's. On two occasions that we know of (thanks to the eye witness accounts of former members) McKay's negligence has put the safety of children at serious risk of harm. On one of those occasions vulnerable children in India were abused at the hands of a paedophile working for Dave McKay. This abuse could have been avoided.

Surely you can see the importance of highlighting such incidents?

His potential victims/followers could be families with young children. They have a right to this information before making a life changing decision.

We haven't just pulled these incidents out of thin air. They have been backed up by former JCs members including his own son.

He also appears to use grooming tactics similar to those of a paedophile whilst trying to attract teenagers to his cult. I believe Dave McKay has been hugely influenced by the teachings of paedophile ''Moses'' David Berg.

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Blackhat
The damage Dave has done is much deeper, and will take many years to resolve. There are people without kidneys to donate to their relatives. There are young talented people who have given the best years of their lives to distributing literature for Dave McKay.

All of those issues have been addressed and will continue to be addressed.

I've always said my number one gripe is the way he targets and grooms teenagers for his cult. He tears apart individual families. The most high profile incident was of course Joe Johnson who was secretly groomed from the age of 16. It is unforgivable what this man has put the Johnson's and many other families through.

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Blackhat
When this forum returns to the real issues, then I will re-consider my position. As things stand, it looks very much like the JC's have indeed disbanded.

You do what you feel is right for you.

I will continue to raise awareness against Dave McKay and his destructive cult.

I see no solid evidence to suggest they've disbanded.

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Blackhat
What would you want to happen to Dave McKay, in a perfect world?

In a perfect world i'd like to see him either sectioned or incarcerated.

While he's walking this earth I feel it's important that he's monitored.

Dear Moderator,

Thank you for giving me another chance. I will refrain from personal attacks. In return, can you please ask Zeuszor and Apollo from saying "Blackhat why are you here?" every time I post something they disagree with? That is what has flamed me. Thanks.

Also, a question for you, regarding the return of children to their families. What if Dave were to tell Joe to return to his family, and he refused? Would that mean that he is free of Dave's influence?

Or if Dave told Joe to go back to his family, and he went, would that mean he was still under Dave's influence?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 02:31PM by Blackhat.

Blackhat what exactly do you want from us?

Do you want us to accept they've ''disbanded'' and just pack up and go home?

Dave McKay would love that. Where is the solid evidence to suggest they've ''disbanded''?

How do we know for sure they're not still out there operating?

They may or may not have ''disbanded'' but until I see solid evidence then I will continue to view them as a dangerous and destructive cult.

McKay's teachings are still available on his website for potential victims/followers to view.

The only evidence we have of the ''disband'' comes from a mad old bird lady and a nacissistic, compulsive lying, cult leader.

Well for a start, as I said to the moderator, I would like some respect for my postings, not some chant of "Blackhat, why are you here?"

I don't want anything else from you. Feel free to post what you like, and please let me to post equally with respect.

The JC's may not have disbanded. Dave may have commanded them to all keep silence after a protracted locking of his beloved internet forum.

Personally, the way I see it, Dave would never choose to lock up his beloved forum for that long, unless something were desperately wrong. He loves the publicity too much. Even if it were a ruse, he would have made sure that he knew how to run the thing before it all went into lock-down. He was clearly left to his own devices.

That's how I see it. You are free to disagree, but please don't disrespect me for that opinion.

Someone called recentlydeparted has just joined the X forum. While the immediate hope is that it is indeed Dave, it may be Sue, or Roland, or any number of "recently departed". I have just had an exchange with them which I would like to share, as it clearly states where I come from, as Apollo and Zeuszor keep asking me in their question "Blackhat, why are you here?"

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recentlydeparted
I'm wondering where all the hostility is coming from?

Blackhat I am deeply saddened that the people at the Rick Ross hate site are insisting on focusing on some of Dave more inflammatory mistakes. He did make mistakes and many of them but it would have been through his ignorance, not a deliberate wish to encourage paedophiles to join the community. Did anyone actually see him attempting to enlist known paedophiles?

Many of Dave's mistakes are well known to ex members, on the forums and in the media. I can admit, many of his mistakes seem to have reflected negatively on the Jesus Christians but I feel the comments on the Ross hate site are portraying Dave as a predator rather than simply ignorant. Maybe Dave isn't a man gifted with a personality suited to working closely with people, we can agree there. He doesn't make a good impression and he doesn't cover any of his flaws in order to put forward a persona that is attractive to the average person but therein lies the merit of the man. He makes no effort to fabricate a persona to satisfy man. He aims to satisfy only one. Does he? Only Jesus can answer that.

Dave has admitted his flaws and his defeat and he stepped aside for the good of others.

Can we give the man, the human man, some understanding?

Can we move beyond this situation that Dave unintentionally created and accept that he was ignorant but not a predator?

I'd like to think this would be possible.

Blessings.

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Blackhat
I think I have nearly lost my RR membership trying to explain that very thing, recentlydeparted, and I agree.

As I have said on that forum, I would prefer to concentrate on his manipulation of young people to give up their belongings, their labour, their time, their families and their kidneys, and to whip each other, all at Dave's behest. That was not a foolish mistake, that was a planned formation of a cult at the behest of Dave's teachings.

I agree with you Apollo, that "hard evidence" is required...not simply the self-absorbed remarks of the "mad" and the "bad".... your dogged committment is admirable.

Personally I concur with you that in some senses they(the dozen or less souls once associated with him) are still "out there" and "operating"!

What are the "numbers" here...Joe, Trevor, Robin, Christine, Paul, Ulrike, Fran, Kim, Ross, Reinehardt, Barry, Alf,.......(Zuesor, do you have a current "count"?) They are worth the effort....

They would not have yet "left" the cult psychologically.....they may in fact still be able to "recruit" (the loss of McKay being a "positive" in this regard....he was the biggest "drawback" of the JC's for a couple of decades!)

Until the last of them, are somehow "accounted for" (hopefully by a personal recovery occuring!) there is no need to talk of "packing up and going home". It's also important to prevent anyone else ever travelling up to the central coast of NSW to join him and Cherry...(well okay, everyone except Glennn that is....or was that Gllenn...ummm, how about Gwen?)...even though I think this is an increasingly remote possibility.

I, of course look at what McKay does and doesn't do, not what he says (his reply to Alex..that was subsequently deleted, the lack of contributions to his site and the fact that when Zeusor pointed out that we could "track" the presence (or lack of it) of the former members, this function was removed by McKay, his attempts to "stack" the xjcs forum with first himself under the guise of "falling leaves" and now the appearance of "recently departed", the "change of management" mentioned on the Kenyan site)...

Hence I think Blackhat is likely right.....it's not that the JC's have "graduated"...but rather that David has "flunked".... he gave them all away when he was likely required to choose between the "web forum" and his actual membership....flesh and blood people are always completely dispensible for McKay....the precedent for this took place during the few weeks, David managed to suppress his meglomania long enough to be "supervised" in the COG's .....they asked David to "forsake" his writing, if I remember correctly....of course, McKay didn't....he engineered his departure from the COGs to independance in his own colony.....the issues would have been the same here!


I greatly appreciate Stoics' scholarship in relation to the newsletters he has posted on the previous page....where he points out David deceptively claimed to have "stepped down" ...all for the purposes of identifying "dissent" that he could later quash. With respect, would you or Stoic, be able to nominate how long the previous "purge" took? Days? Weeks?

For the last two months, McKay has been isolated...(even where he is considered to be "secretly" transmitting coded instructions to the troops, hidden "underground"....that would still constitute a backward step to me....digging up his "bone" and burying it even deeper, further out,...so no other mongrel like him could sniff it out and take it from him)...some potentially "hard evidence" to my mind!

Would anyone like to nominate a time, that would positively "disprove" the theory that McKay will "rise from the ashes", Phoenix like with his cult all the stronger, surrounding him.....2024, 2014, next year.....19th July 2011? If a time cannot be nominated, then you are simply "mythologizing" the man....a mere "Don Quixote" of the cults...