In relation to the recent allegations about David McKay's alleged racism, I'm half Chinese. But while David has consistently lied and said some extremely hateful and un-Christian things about me, I'm not sure if he's been deliberately racist. This will be a matter for the police, because "incitement to racial hatred" is a criminal offence here in the UK. I understand that David's statements are currently being looked at by the British authorities.

I thought I would share somewhat of a testimony of how it was for me after I was unceremonially thrown out of the JC cult, along with 10 others. Besides the fact that it was a rainy day, and several children were involved, we managed to find a sheltered car park under which to regroup and figure out where we went from there. We did eventually rent another house and live together for a time, and to be frank we found that it was a challenge sticking together without the gelling factor of a cult leader. But we did stay together as a group for about 18 months I think. Don't quote me on that as I may be wrong on the actual time. We continued doing the smae sort of activities, i.e. doney distributing, free work, etc. but gradually came to a point where we found it not so neccessary to maintain the same geographical unity. We had a name for our group at that time, i.e. "Christians" and printed a newsletter with a pheonix on it, suposedly symbolising our rise from the ashes of Dave's destruction. But since then, and ince watching the movie flight of the pheonix some of us think the community we had continued to run was a bit like that plane they rebuilt in the desert of abandoment which only had the purpose of flying us out of the desert to civilisation. That it did. We ALL survived, noone died. Dave likes to use the fact that we did not stay togther as a community living under one roof as some sort of evidence that our grievances against him were wrong. He still uses it to this day to convince his new followers as he tell tales of the split that occurred. He continues to be completely oblivious to any notion of an INVISIBLE kingdom of heaven without a hiearchial structure. He likes things to be nice and visible, hence his media chasing.

Anyway this was to be about how it was for ME after I was kicked out. It took me YEARS to overcome some of the indoctrination I had accepted as a JC member. The thing that helped me to overcome such indoctrination was that I could see the type of person I was becoming by what I believed. My beliefs were leading me to be hard, hard on others, and hard on my marriage, children etc. I am so thankful I did not stay in the group, now seeing that they are into whipping people. Sure they donate kidneys, but even that is backed up by biblical commands or sacrificing the body, etc. Not much real choice their as in the JC community if you do not do the so called BIG acts you are not really 100% commited. I remember the hassle some of us got when Dave led us all to lie to the welfare agency about the number of jobs we applied for so we could get the welfare money. Those who balked at lying were called "weak in faith". We all used to leave signed blank withdrawal forms around for the treasurer to access all the separate accounts to transfer all the welfare payments into one group account. If one of us forgot to sign one, it could easily be forged by one clever current member, who will remain nameless. (not because I cannot name the individual, but because I choose not to)

Today, I think I am largely over a lot of that indoctrination. I no longer fear sending my children to a public school to educated by "systemites" and to get them past a grade 7 level of education. Dave likes to talk a lot about how his members went to Uni. Note that none of them actually do anything with such training, nor did they pay for it. Dave himself dropped out of uni after the first year, and then started pressuring others to do the same. I am also no longer fearful to receive a wage for what I do. That was a biggie, but now I can do it. To be fair to myself though, there must still be some need to justify it still by applying the same reasoning that Dave does to his doney distributing, i.e. labourer worthy of his hire and all that. But overall I am so over it.

Today I can love my wife, children, and friends without having to judge them. I even bought a Harley to put around on. Such decadence! In the JC's you had to justify buying a new pair of shoes, or undies, because you were stealing from the poor by doing so. Looking back on it all I have to question what sort of God it is that they think they are serving if the only way they can live is by cheating welfare systems, eating out of bins, or veiwing children as a liability, seeing the wallets of those passing in the street as open to be picked by the polite receipt of a tract and manipulated into giving a "few cents" to cover printing costs. Of course people will give more than a few cents. Dave knows this and calculates it into budget predictions.

As an ex member of the JC's I state categorically that I am happy to be out of the group and away from Dave's controlling behavior. I definately advise any thinking of joing the group to not do so because, as my wife describes, "it is like looking a beautiful fruit garden... you can only look but not eat". Such is the presentation of the group. From the outside it LOOKS good, but once you are in you soon learn you are the gardener working on the presentation of the garden. It is not about eating anything substantial. The group is in effect an "empty well" and a "hidden reef".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 04:57AM by apostate.

Quote
apostate
From the outside it LOOKS good, but once you are in you soon learn you are the gardener working on the presentation of the garden. It is not about eating anything substantial. The group is in effect an "empty well" and a "hidden reef".

that is SO TRUE; it was interesting reading about a psychology student's recent stay with the JC's, called Ruth, she had penetrated the superficial layer to find a few minor problems which the JC's graciously allowed to be posted, but as you get deeper the corruption becomes more evident. By then, however, you are deeply enmeshed and it is hard to get out. Not because there are any walls but because you have been manipulated to believe that to leave the group means you are weak, "going back to the vomit" and betraying your fellow Christians and God.

Just to be clear: leaving the group is an act of courage and faith, and we who have left are so much better off spiritually and in every way. To my brothers and sisters inside the JC's; come out of her! Take the millstone off your neck! Join the unjoined, enter the invisible Kingdom of Heaven! It's easy to just coast along doing the same thing with your head bowed to a flawed leaders whims. Come out and start the new adventure, your new life free of oppression!

The thing the JC's REALLY miss besides the INVISIBLE aspect of a kingdom of heaven, that doesn't come by watching...and where they actually get to live a life free of oppression...is the whole "salt of the earth" approach to living. I really do not see how living an isolated, separated, exclusive lifestyle they can actually be part of the world community helping to make things better. How do they provide a better flavour to the world when it seems by and large people come away from an experience with them feeling as though they have sucked on lemons, grimacing at the bitterness they taste when exposed to the groups malcontent take on life? They don't vote, even though they are NOT a registered religion, and yet they want political systems to change. They profess to be shining a light on a roof, but give them a ballot box in which to have an opinion and they run the other way. They talk about "love" and yet Dave forbids his wife seeing her children, and grandchildren; and other community members who have children view them as a liability (not a nice environment to grow up in).

Take what is happening between them and the Quakers for example. Rather than accept feedback from what was once viewed as a beneficial relationship between themselves Dave is painting a picture that they have all lost the way and that only he is the one with the answers. Really... it is a pattern that gets repeated time and time again. In the JC world it is "I accept and respect you if you agree with me, but if you disgaree with me it is because you hate me... and hate is the seed of murder". Now they claim they are being persecuted by the Quakers who are famous for their pacifism, and who ARE bold to enough to publicly state as much by registering as non voters due to it, instead of hiding their truth under a bushel as the JC's do come election time. But then Dave, I guess is covered because he is a member of the Quakers and as such reaps the benefits such membership affords him. It is a shame he does not inform the others in his group of the risks they run. Nope, don't see much "salt" happening with their approach.

So Dave, and others in your group, we are all still here, still being principled, idealistic and loving. How did that bawdy ballad go?... "You don't get me, I'm part of the kingdom"

It's all about David. He's posted the following regarding the Australian Quakers:

"The entire movement seems to have been sabotaged by a bitter bunch of "refugees" who want to declare war on any kind of faith that goes farther than just sitting quietly and making the odd token contribution to some political cause.

There has been far more zeal shown in this battle against the Jesus Christians than I have seen shown for ANY OTHER CAUSE that Quakers supposedly support!"

[welikejesus.com]

I can't speak for the Australian Quakers, but I am aware of their tireless work on so many social injustices, their protests, their urgings on many issues, their active involvement in real concerns. Australian Quakers are real beacons of light in this area. But no, it's all about David McKay once again. I looked at the Yearly Meeting agenda (what was available to me). Sadly for David, he's not on the agenda, in fact from what I gather, he's considered a trifling, if that.

We have a new Government here in Australia, and there are so many real issues to consider. I won't begin to list them here, but think about global warming, indigenous rights, housing, the poor, the disenfranchised, international atrocities, slavery.....you know what I mean.

"just sitting quietly and making the odd token contribution" is an enormous insult to those who have worked tirelessly for up to 50+ years on issues such as I have mentioned; devoted their lives for these causes.

I hope the Australian Quakers become aware of this comment.

Still he flames on with his idea that it's "all about him". And that's what he's all about. And that's why he has a problem with the Australian Quakers. Don't you get it David?

"Tokenism" cuts both ways of course....

It is my understanding that David would say, pay lip service to the human rights that the American Constitution is based upon (heavily dependant as it is, on the ideals of the earlier Quaker Pennsylvanian Constitution that Jefferson and others would have been deeply familiar with from their years in Philadelphia)

So... we see that David has this token commitment to Democracy and Human Rights while at the same time he isolates (by implying they are consorting with the Devil, subjecting them to public derision and removing their access to any "privledges") young, impressionable and vulnerable members of his own "correctional institution" denying them the right to privately communicate with anyone external, removing their right to hold any significant amount of cash or major goods of their own, subjecting the very physical movements they make to the dictates of his appointed "leaders"....while he sets out to poison the relationships they once enjoyed with their family and friends (....in the name of "God"....)

I mean...not that I'd want to be seen to overly harsh here....but...like, you know.... Is David being ever so slightly "superficial" here????

.....subjecting them to public derision and removing their access to any "privledges" young, impressionable and vulnerable members of his own "correctional institution" denying them the right to privately communicate with anyone external, removing their right to hold any significant amount of cash or major goods of their own, subjecting the very physical movements they make to the dictates of his appointed "leaders"....while he sets out to poison the relationships they once enjoyed with their family and friends...

Sounds like a cult to me...................thanks.

Over the years Dave has chopped and changed/reversed his opinions and associations depending on the current mood and opposition he faces.
He actually excommunicated Sydney once. His current writings suggest that he is backing out of the Quakers. Far better to leave justifying they were never on the right track anyway, then to be dumped.

In May 1984 Dave McKay distributed a two page ‘statement’ headed:
‘SYDNEY, GO TO HELL’. In it he stated:

Quote:

“Notice is hereby given that, from Tuesday, May 29, the entire city of Sydney will be ‘excommunicated”. We are a group of Christians who are placing a black ban on the City of Sydney. Our voices will no longer be heard in the streets after May 29. We will not speak to any representatives of the press in Sydney or from Sydney from that date. we will officially discontinue our offer to work for people for free, and we will direct all our evangelistic efforts away from the city…”


In mid 1986, when the Jesus Christians were simply called Christians, Dave McKay announced they were going to join the Catholic Church

Quote:

“Our recent decision to join the Catholic Church cannot honestly be taken as a reversal of our stand against institutional selfishness and spiritual blindness; but can be taken as an attempt to acquaint ourselves with all that is best about the Catholic Church. We do not want to be guilty of intolerance. Although numbers of us have spent considerable time within mainstreams of Protestantism, we have been largely ignorant of Catholicism.

Apart from our own concerns about becoming too critical, as well as a number of personal experiences that led us to believe that God was directing us personally towards the Roman Catholic Church, there is a rather obvious fact that the Catholic Church is, by far, the biggest and oldest of all Christian sects. Being the biggest and oldest doesn’t necessarily make it the perfect or ‘true’ church. But we have concluded that no one (including ourselves) can lay hold to such a claim anyway. If one must join an imperfect Christian institution anyway, why not join the biggest and oldest?

If there is something fundamentally wrong in the Church’s attitude towards statues, Mary, or the Pope, we are sure the answer lies in greater obedience to the teachings of Christ. But so far, it seems that Jesus is being heard more clearly in Catholicism than in Protestantism."


In Baby Book II which was handed out at the 1996 Sydney Royal Show by members dressed as babies (which led to arrests), there seemed to be a return? and more forthright spelling out of their COG connection:

Quote:

‘In this book we are printing some of the teachings of a radical religious group that began in the United States during the late 1960’s. They called themselves The Children of God. They were the avant garde of a movement known as “The Jesus Revolution”. They were hated and rejected by the religious establishment at that time. Persecution eventually reached the point where they were forced to change their name to escape it.

We represent a small remnant of that group, which still clings to the truths taught by The Children of God in the early days of their history. But we are not living in the past. We have rejected some of the teachings which crept into that movement, in particular the teaching that sex outside of marriage is okay as long as it is offered in the spirit of love. And we have added new revelations which God has given to us as his children today. We new children of God will be hated by the establishment, i.e. by the older “children” but it will not stop us.’

Contrast the last quote, with this quote taken recently from his Forum:

“(I learnt a few things from David Berg, but most of my teachings are not based on him, and because of the horrible stuff he taught about using prostitution to sell religion, I generally try to play down my past links with the Children of God.)

(Though I also accept the theory that it may have been off the rails from the start in some ways.)”

Hi everyone. I watched the Jeremy Kyle show this morning. It was called " Brainwashing Cults or religious communities". I really don't know why David agreed to appear on it. Any last trace of claim to respectability - or ' not being a cult' has now been washed away.
It's official- at least here in the U.K- they are a CULT.
The show featured stories about Jonestown and The Children Of God. It was heartbreaking to hear some of the personal stories. The way the show was built up- the main act are going to be the JC's- who will be featured tomorrow.
Liesel was interviewed. She came across as very nice.
At the end there was a' trailer'. It showed Brian telling David that he wasn't Jesus and everyone laughing. Someone on the panel saying that David lies, David behaving in an out of control and aggressive fashion- he was standing up and kind of pointing and ranting- and then David trying to say something nasty about someone- but you couldn't see who it was. It also showed members of the audience just looking shocked and disgusted.
I'll watch the show tomorrow.
I don't believe, after this show- that a single person in the UK will ever be recruited again. EVER.

Dear Al,
thanks for the apologies. I forgive you.x
Dave-
Al told me ages ago that the only person who had access to his account was YOU.