Dave doesn't actually teach the group to follow Jesus. It does not matter which teaching of Jesus one presents to him or their group. They will find a clever argument to justify disobeying it. Even something as simple as "turn the other cheek", Dave can get his group to whip people for sinning against them or to accept that killing people in self defense is a Christian thing to do. Having said that I do not agree with those that assert he is "evil" to the core. This may seem like going at odds with this thread but I actually conisder myself his friend. In fact I have never stopped being his friend, as much as he would like to call me otherwise. He was the one who threw a lot of us out during the "split" we had as a group, in an attempt to break strong relationships with friends and his family members. He did so because he wanted to do his own thing and be accountable to no-one, especially not those who could stand up to him and offer some counsel reagrding his excesses. He continues to forbid his wife from seeing her children and grand-children ignoring her desire to do so.

Following the reasoning that Dave does not teach the group to follow Jesus, he may SAY to new followers that they can give their money to world wision or some such group; but he will question their reason for doing so when THEY need the money for they are doing. At this time he will generally counter such verses by a command and example from the book of Acts where ALL money was laid at the apostles (his) feet. At this point the new follower will simply comply.

I do not think the rhetoric about him committing suicide is helpful, and can assure those saying such things that such claims about their group sound as ridiculous to their members as their claims about knowing who all of us are. Totally missing the mark, and only promoting entrenchment of parties that is hard to withdraw from without a loss of face. I agree that it is a concerning practice of Dave to infiltrate groups like the Quakers, but at least they can have some positive influence on him.

Dave recently banned me from his group forum because it was obvious to him that he was losing control, and felt embarrased by the responses that some of his followers were making. Having said that I think an approach which respects them as individuals and continues to use calm rational thought with them is the best way to go. They know when they are on shaky ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 05:50AM by apostate.

Hi,

Sorry I have not been around. I haven't been in the best of health lately (been in hospital) and had puter & mobile phone problemz to boot. Not to mention it is rather disheartening to have people on the Rick Ross Forum quoting my words, and taking them totally out of prospective. Not to mention in recent weeks being allowed back onto the Rick Ross Forum but having all my posts rejected by the moderator. It makes me cautious and in fear of posting anything on the JC site at all.

In relation to the banning of Glenn and the accusations that have been flung at Dave, I just want to say how bad I feel about it. As in all truth what went down was because I had a stupid password 12345678 and chose to give it out to people cause I had trouble getting onto the site. People should not be attacking Dave for my mistake.

In fairness to Frankie I just want to clarify one thing. Yes Frankie gave me her password to her account on the Jesus Christian Site but I never accessed her account. At the time she said she wanted to prove something about not being able to send private messages. I must admit that like Frankie I too gave out my password on the Jesus Christian site to more than one person, and therefore take full responsibility for the incident that occurred. I guess since everybody else was passing out their passwords, I did it to, not thinking to question it.

I am not going to blame anyone. All I am going to say is that I did not send out those Emails or sabotage myself on the JC site. For people that know me, know that I have always been open and loving to all races and do not like hatred of any nature.

I don't understand why people would think that I would want to be banned from the JC site after all the work I have put into the study (Rank 2) and the work I have contributed to the poetry, not to mention all the posts. Why would I want all of that wiped off?

Just to say one more time, and hopefully for the last time, I did not send those Emails to Brian and I do take full repsonsibility for them, and told Frankie, Glenn, Brian and the site that it was my mistake, despite the fact that somebody did go out of their way to use my account to try and get me banned from the site. As I have recieved a lot of concern with people saying I am getting too close to the JC's.

I hope this clears the matter up.

Love n Peace 2 u all,

Al

[welikejesus.com]

Al, this is all that I am gong to write directly to you; this will be my only response your latest communique'.

Nobody wants your high-school, gossipy antics, he-said-she-said pseudo-intrigue, and assorted whinings here. You obviously do not take the matter of David McKay and his group very seriously. Well, we do. Nobody here welcomes your trolling, Al. This is not a game to me (us.) This is people's lives at stake that we are talking about. I don't know what your deal is and I don't really even care but I just wanted to alert everybody:

Al is an internet troll. He has been banned from this forum twice, under two different names, and is a game player- attention-seeker, and pot-stirrer. He does not actually care one way or another about the JCs and looks at these boards as if they are some kind of video game. He has written me a couple of times threatening to commit suicide and had just been released from the hospital after an attempt, and just seems real unstable, self-destructive and mental all the way around. Be wary of him. Shut up and get lost, Al, nobody wants to deal with your BS.

What does Wayne think about all of this JC stuff, Al?

A LITTLE LATER

Actually, if anybody here is "ill" it's Al. Al is drama "queen" number one. Man, Al, I don't hate you or anything but I do find your antics really highly annoying. Get some help. Take a chill pill, or something. It seems like you are in and out of the hospital every few weeks over some vague "bad health." Get back into the hospital quickly, Al. You need some serious Prozac (it's done wonders for me.) And if you ever try and infiltrate here again you'll get banned fast.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 06:16AM by zeuszor.

From: A M (mi77@hotmail.com)
Sent: Mon 10/29/07 1:26 AM
To: Brian Birmingham (zr@hotmail.com)

Hi Brian,

An addy is the address of your site. But it doesnt matter as I have found you on the site lol

I feel really down at the moment. I have taken about 10 pills to knock me out. Eventually I will probably kill myself with them. Some days I am tempted to take 4 packets. At the moment I really want to run a knife over my wrists. Maybe not to die, but maybe to feel something. I dunno why I am telling you this. Maybe I need to reach to someone for help. You seem like a good candidate, although you already probably have your own problems. I know even if you tell people this, they probably wont believe you. I feel real empty inside. I know Im selfish and have a lot to be grateful for but I think to really find peace you have to die.

I was reading in The Bible with that baptism of the dead stuff in Corinthians that our bodies are all corrupt. I dunno... Before I die I want to try and find the right religion. Its sorta strange as one night I got dirty drunk, smoked some joints and snorted some dusters and collapsed. But before I collapsed I was crying and really upset and asking God if he could help me. When I came to I was being picked up off the floor by Jehovah Witnesses. Dont you think its strange that I called out for God and the Jehovah Witnesses were there?

I know you dont like them. But I have spent the last 2 years reseaching religions, and I am coming down to the very last ones. Judaism and JW's. I honestly thought they JW's were full s*** and I thought why even bother with them. But now I am looking back on it thinking how wrong I was to not even consider them. I have been trying to fault them and P**** has sent stuff to me about them, but in all honesty so far I believe they are the closest to God's religion. Mainstream Churches are evil.

In really worried about your course your doing as they probably expect you to think a certain way. My mind is open and free, although sometimes a bit nutty, immature and wild. Im not stupid, and have been investigating the JWs real close. Im impressed with them and their truth in God.

Before I end my life I want to be baptised. One time I was in a hot tube with some other people. We were all nude, and somebody baptised me, but I am not sure if that counts or whether or not they were joking about it. I know you wont believe this but when the JW's did come, several weeks later when I began to learn more about them, Satan came to visit me. I know you probably think I am full of shit and wierd, but I tell you the truth. I was sleeping and I had somebody over. It wasnt a f***. It was platonic. Something told me to wake up, its like I went cold. So I woke up and sat up. And there at the end of my bed Satan was standing. It was huge. His eyes were enrapturing, it like was staring into 2 purplely black eyes that went forever. I couldnt scream, yell or do anything. I was totally frozen and petrified. At first I honestly thought it was a person at the end of my bed but seconds later I knew that what was at the end of bed was something putrid. My friend woke up, and clawed hersleft half way up the wall screaming her guts out. Her claw marks are still in the wall. She no longer talks to me as she said she has had a breakdown and has gone into therapy over what she saw. It was like staring into another realm, not earthly. Several nights later Satan came back with somebody else, but this time he was in my body, the thing that sat beside me stuck its nails deep into my heart. I went cold. My uncle who was staying at the time came in and shook me furiously, he said I was convulsing. I felt death and knew that Satan was attacking me. I told the JWs about it and they said this thing happens because Satan is aware that I am slowly learning the truth, and he wants to stop me. The JWs said Jehovah has seen something he liked in me, and has chosen me. I think its true.

Although I now sleep with the light on. A week later I was really pissed off, and turned all the lights out in the house and dared Satan to come back. I sat up in the dark waiting for him. I sat their for hours, sometimes laughing at him and saying he was piss weak c**t who had no b***s. I said come back you filthy maggot lets rock! Anyhow more time past and then I heard laughing through the walls, and in the next room things were being tossed around. Its funny as I expected Satan to appear but he did not. He played more games. I told my Uncle and he was really petrified for me and stayed with me in my bedroom and said if he heard these things then it is true, and if he did not hear them he wanted me to become an inpatient at a psychiatric place where they help out celebreties who have break downs. That night the laughing through the wall started again, and in the next room it was like hearing things were been tossed around. However when you went into the room everything was normal, nothing was out of place. Anyhow when my Uncle heard the laughing through the wall, he ran outside and ran behind the house. He came back and said there was nobody their and stayed four more nights to hear the same thing. One night the floor board creaked as if in steps like somebody was coming closer to the bed, on his side. That was the last night he stayed. My other friend came over and said he saw a spirit in the backroom who was watching him. When Glenn stays he says he is disturbed by very strange and unusual dreams.

I know this might sound insane but I think Satan is trying to kill me and I have no idea why. Its not like I am ever going to do anything with my life, or do anything great.

One night it was totally bizarre. I was walking down the house and I went back in time. It was like I walked through a time warp. Everything was misty and foggy. Music from my past was playing. I was in my first home but at the same time my brain couldnt accept that it was happening. It was my grandmother (dec). It felt so beautiful. It tore through my soul and made me so happy. It was so peaceful and calming. It was like a light turned on in my heart and I try and focus on some of its beauty. I want to keep on fighting and keep on living but some days, if not most, I just want to die.

Sorry for cyring on your shoulder. I dont even know you, even though I have used my gift to look into your light I guess I shouldnt have.

Can you tell me something happy? Can you tell me something that makes you happy? I am trying to find things that make me happy and I cant think of any, maybe if you tell me something I will be able to think of something to. Maybe something about your father or mother. I never had a father or mother, I was raised by grandmother, my parents had busy lifestyle and I was looked on as child that was used to trap a businessmen.


Al has written me on more than one occasion either telling me he was about to commit suicide, or else saying he just got out of the hospital after an attempt. Al says that he is going to kill himself, or that he has recently tried to do so ("I just got out of the hospital"), all the time. And I just don't take him seriously anymore. Al, go get some help. You've been crying out for it for months now. Either Al is seriously unstable, a cynical jerk who does not take any of this seriously, he's not very bright, or maybe some combination of the three, I don't know. Nobody cares about your stupid password, Al.

Look at all of the spelling and grammatical errors, and Al's semantic peculiarities. I am telling you folks, I am not making this up.

Can anybody else testify as to similar dealings or experiences with Al?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 09:39AM by zeuszor.

Forget about all that he said-that-she-said-that stuff, man. Glenn was our mole and Al is a troll who doesn't care one way or the other. This is not a game, Al. Stop your BS.

[welikejesus.com]

Al, you seem to be covering for Glenn in this letter. Did you, or did you not tell me that Franky told you that Glenn had told her that he sent that racist email as a way of driving a wedge between you and us, because he was concerned that you were getting too friendly with us?

And did you not tell me that it was GLENN that you gave your password to (besides Franky)? So why are you giving these vague statements now about having given it to more than one person. Please have the courage to name that other person!

Frankie is now saying that it wasn't Glenn that you gave it to, and that she did not tell you that Glenn had sent it, and that I supposedly know who DID send it, because you have told me yourself. (But, of course, Franky herself doesn't name who it was... conveniently!) Nevertheless, she has used this whole incident to claim that I am a liar, and that it is precisely because of my supposed dishonesty to her that this whole cult/monster claim has originated!

I'm sorry that you have to be the meat in the sandwich, Al, but it would be helpful to everyone if you could have the courage to stand up to Glenn.

Finally, your suggestion that you may get better treatment at the Rick Ross site if you don't post over here sounds suspiciously like what Glenn was saying just before he turned on us... i.e. that he got an email (apparently without ANY clues as to who sent it, if that is possible) warning him that they would make trouble for him and his father if he did not dissociate himself from us. (That was entirely consistent with David Lowe's post that the trouble David created with Glenn's employer was just a taste of what Glenn would get if he continued to associate with us). So have they got to you too, Al?

David, Al never gave a s**t about you in the first place, has told me that he thinks you are an idiot and a snake, and has basically played both sides here. And it was Al that gave me those pictures, too.

The Dude Abides!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2007 10:22AM by zeuszor.

This kind of comment reassures me that there is no incipient "Heaven's Gate" developing here with the JCs. In other words, it reassures me to know that DM is looking forward some kind of a future. That is a good sign.

"But I expect that there will be a lot more of this in the years ahead."

[forum.culteducation.com]

That's what I said a month ago. Who knows? Perhaps I overreacted, probably so. Happy holidays, all,

B

"BREAKER, BREAKER"...

I agree, you overreacted

Roger that.

Thanks Apostate for bringing some balance back. I too agree that Dave is not, on the whole, evil. He is certainly not as good or as humble as he thinks he is though! I think his problem is that he wants to be RIGHT more than he wants to love. He wants to be able to go before Jesus on judgement day and argue his right to get into heaven like a lawyer! Anyone with an ounce of theology should be able to see the flaw in this approach.
The great falsehood the JC's perpetuate is that we on the outside are all so beholden with the love of money that we hate the JC's because they "live by faith".
Firstly, disagreement is not hate. Secondly, no-one here as far as I know really has any trouble with people following the teachings of Christ. I still celebrate people working for love instead of money, and do it myself. Lots of people do. What we have trouble with is the authoritarianism, the lies, and the oppression in the group due to Dave's insecurity and his micromanaging nature.

Yep- thanks Apostate and Cultmalleus.
As I stated before- I don't believe that David is evil- rather he does ' evil' things because he is delusional. He is someone that deserves our compassion rather than condemnation. Though- I'm the first to admit- sometimes- especially when I'm on the receiving end of it- my patience and tolerance runs thin. Perhaps I can take this opportunity to remind everyone- though especially myself- that seen in its true light- everything is a test.
Yes- Dave lies. However- I believe he lies- not deliberately- merely because it is a false belief. Even Brian has stated that Dave genuinely believes whatever he says.
I was contemplating the matter yesterday- and decided to turn to one of those other great books- the dictionary! According to The Oxford Concise Dictionary
lie- an intentionally false statement/ or a false belief
delusion- a false belief or impression

Dave lies because he is delusional. He is ill. What can we do to help him?

Nothing, until he is ready to accept that help. I stand by my opinion: DM is just plain evil.

The first segment of Kyle is to be broadcast tomorrow morning, Hello, and the second on Tuesday. You must watch it and tell us your impressions. I can hardly wait!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 02:28AM by zeuszor.