Please email me with question like that, OK?

Quote
zeuszor
Say Jack, this isn't the place for theological discussion. You know my email address. Write me, OK?

The 'theological discussion' is rare on these boards, especially in the context of your statement.

I don't know if I'm always adhering to 'perfect' protocol when I write what I write. I try to be honest, but I understand the abstract nature of that, especially when there's no context.

If this is not a place for 'theological discussion', as you put it, then I don't think that's for you to moderate. But there's nothing to fear in discussion, surely. Everything to gain, absolutely. But let the call to censor come from the official moderator/s.

Only my words, for sure, but seldom do I take it upon myself to suggest what should and should not be discussed here. Especially here. I rarely have more than questions and a few get posted here. Yeah, I like to give advice, help a little with my own experiences. But, more importantly, its about being part of a dynamic community with similar passions. I can't help it.

I don't think it's a good idea to waste potentially good discussions by private email. Thanks, but no thanks.

PS: I've appreciated a lot of the stuff you've posted on this thread.

Thanks Jack. This isn't the place to get into lessons on Biblical exegesis. I'm sure that RR would appreciate it. The Scriptures I posted are pretty self-explanitory, even outside of immediate context.

Here are Dave's latest comments on his forum.


QUOTE:
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:13 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The latest (ironic) news from the Rick Ross forum is that Brian (hardly our best friend over there) is being attacked from several different sides at once for posting Bible verses on the thread about the Jesus Christians. Some of them are being very pointed that they don't want any Bible verses put up there, that even if Brian thinks there is something in the verse that can be used as ammunition against us, he has to point it out for them, explain it very simply, because they have no interest in the Bible EXCEPT as it can be used to hurt us, and even then, they aren't able to see the point he is trying to make unless he gets very specific about leading them step by step through what it means.

Poor ole Brian is being forced to throw his Bible away before he will be allowed to be part of their club. I guess that since they have all thrown Jesus away already, it's not all that hard to trash the Bible as well!

Nice group, eh?
END QUOTE

Funny, I have been following things here and I completely missed the "several" people who are forcing Brian to "throw his Bible away". Maybe someone can "lead me step by step" and show me where all these people are. I don't want to be forced to throw my Bible away.

Quote
Gladitzover
Here are Dave's latest comments on his forum.

...explain it very simply, because they have no interest in the Bible EXCEPT as it can be used to hurt us

That is his persecution complex slip showing again.

All I meant about the bible quotes was that you need to put a line or two at the top saying 'this is how McCay is unlike the bible' or something.

Because otherwise I thought the phrases were aimed at the reader personally, but maybe that's my own McCay-like issues :)

Please don't pay attention or worry about him twisting our words Zeuszor or RR. This is a tactic favoured by ther groups such as the Pagan Association as well, to do this away from this board.

Groups do this as an attempt to turn supporters away from each other, and cause dissent in a group which are questioning them. Also to make their own followers think we are 'the enemy'.

Whatever we say, groups will do this. So lets' not let it stifle debate or cause aggro between us.

People posting the rantings and 'spin' of McCay on here when he's making up stuff up about this thread, is good. Because people can check what he's saying against the thread. And his rhetoric of persecution and other tactics he uses are shown up clearly.

From the JC board from one angry JC named Sue

pasted below

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:38 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Tony,

Gee, seems like you really missed something rather crucial in the Kidneys for Jesus doc to go ahead and liken Dave to a "phoney faith healer" "gathering information about their victims and then pretend(ing) it was divine knowledge from God". What on earth are you talking about?

Rob has observed and pointed out how you guys (yourself, Brian, Kevin, Rick Ross and his ilk, Attila, Annette, Kyri's mother etc etc, and now "Xenophone" and "Ruth"), are all spiritually united against us, and now you are siding with Jon Ronson's pathetic attempts to make the JC's attempts to encourage more kidney donation to be a suspicious and crazy thing.

So Tony, what do YOU think about people donating their kidneys to save people's lives, which was the real message behind the Kidneys for Jesus doc.

You are all united in trying to dig up SOME sort of dirt, and it's pretty funny how you strain at gnats to come up with something really evil in what Dave or ourselves are doing, and yet you yourselves swallow camels of rumours and outright lies spreading around about us. So the Anita Foster idea which Dave was totally open about with Jon Ronson while the film was being made was so evil you thought you had to mention it here in another effort to smear Dave and ourselves with something supposedly documented by a "unbiased" journalist.

You do know what happened to Roland and me at the hands of the British Cult Busters and tabloid media years BEFORE the Kidneys for Jesus doc, don't you? I suppose you can say we imagined or provoked that somehow with our "persecution complex" you claim we have that "creates" our persecution and imagines cult busters are dangerous? Were you aware that in that Jon Ronson actually exposed the British cult buster Graham Baldwin who fed the whole kidnap lie to the press for the dangerous looney that he is and said the whole media and legal crusade against us was a totally whipped up frenzy of hate against the JC's for no basis whatsoever? Roland and I were hunted down and held in custody for days and then finally let out without any charges being laid against us, other than contempt of court. Bobby Kelly was forceable taken against his will by police, (who were ready with DOGS to hunt him down) made a ward of court for the final year of his childhood (taken away from the legal custody his grandmother had over him) all because of Graham Baldwin and his lies about us kidnapping him and the national slander that he generated that WE are the dangerous cult and menace to society that preys on children.

Jon Ronson DOCUMENTED that persecution against us and even with his bias against us concluded it was purely religious descrimination started and perpetuated by Graham Baldwin, that Bobby was not pressured by us, including an interview with Bobby insisting there was never any kidnapping, and there was never anything that deserved such persecution.

However, like you guys who know the truth behind the lies, even AFTER documenting that, Jon Ronson ended up saying that he didn't like Dave, but didn't have a reason why, he just didn't like him. That's what I call pathetic journalism and reasoning.

The Anita Foster thing was the best Jon could come up with to make us and Dave look evil, and now you are latching onto that, all these years later.

Come on guys, can't you come up with anything more original?

Dave



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 870
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
This has gone on long enough. I am bailing out here.

Isn't it interesting how snipers always "bail out" just after they've sprayed everyone with gunfire?

Quote:
It certainly aint worth the lost sleep and compulsive investigating you spend looking for something to expose.


Kev, your last two posts were made at 3am Australian time. Who's losing sleep and getting compulsive?

Quote:
I see Tony every couple of months and have never claimed otherwise.


Those of us who know you best, Kevin, can see through your dishonesty. In this modern age you don't need to "see" someone to be emailing them several times a day, or phoning them equally as often. You rather obviously left that out of your rebuttal to my claims that you and Tony are working together on this campaign. As for whether or not it is a campaign, Tony went online at Rick's forum and announced that "we" have something planned "up close" for Dave. You have been exhibit A in Tony's campaign almost from the start, and still you pretend that he did all of this without your knowledge. Bullshit, Kevin.

Quote:
Your argument against the role of force in pedophilia and saying it and homosexuality are immoral because the Bible says so, seemed to either decriminalise pedophilia, or criminalise homosexuality.


I don't think anyone has any easy solution, but if I had my way, paedophiles would all be required to live in a humane environment away from all contact with children for the rest of their lives, with the emphasis on "humane" (i.e. NOT a prison). Yes, in a way, it is a suggestion that homosexuality should be decriminalised, and dealt with in a different way. (I hate to think what is going to be made of THAT shocking admission!)

Quote:
My concern was that in the forum debate and the real life drama Dave seemed more interested in the academic challenge of accommodating the pedophile (as they have with non practicing homosexuality) than in defending the boundaries which should protect children.


So are you advocating that homosexuality should be criminalised? or maybe even that non-practicing homosexuals should be locked up? Yes, we have a non-practicing homosexual living with us, and yes, we experimented for a while with a supposedly non-practicing pedophile living with us. "Academic challenges" are part of finding real solutions to real problems, whereas YOUR challenges don't seem to produce anything positive.

Quote:
Dave took such a heavy approach in sending Bruce back to Australia, handing him over to Federal Police, and in persuading him to confess everything to the courts, that I actually felt guilty for the heavy sentence he received.


You're a strange one, Kevin. Thanks for the apology about saying that "most" parents were not informed. I don't think you made it clear, however, that NO parents were not informed.

But why is it that YOU feel guilty for something that I did. Weird.

You see, when leaders make decisions, they always need to find the fine line between being too harsh and being too soft. It means considering all possibilities and listening to counsel.

You have revealed that in our discussions about how to deal with Bruce I raised the possibility of not telling everyone about Bruce's background. You also revealed that Cherry and you thought others SHOULD be told. What you were not so upfront about was that I ACCEPTED your counsel.

If there is any one consistent grievance that bitter ex-members make against me (and which, conveniently, can never be proven conclusively one way or the other by people who have not lived in the community), it is that I dominate all decisions, and that people are not free to disagree. But those of us who were around up until the time that you left know that almost on a daily basis (and often SEVERAL times a day) you objected to suggestions that I would make, and at least half of the time, the suggestion was altered to go your way.

Quote:
Bruce’s contact with the community was spread out over a number of years.


And could that "number" have been one or two? And how much of that time did he LIVE with us? And how much of that time did we know that he was a pedophile. Boy, you sure can distort the truth!

Quote:
I recall a family feeling imposed upon and compelled to suspend their intentions to care for children and several people feeling uneasy with the way Bruce followed a young child around.


That "family" was a COUPLE, Kevin (no children). And what does "compelled" mean? The community made a decision democratically, and it led to them suspending (temporarily) their intentions about fostering a child. Are you saying this to resurrect your claim that I did something unfair and underhanded against "families" in the community? And you say several people felt uneasy with the way Bruce followed a young child around. Of course we did! There was a LOT of unease about having him there. But the decision was made fairly and democratically, and you were a contributor to it. Stop ruining a good apology with more effort to paint a nasty picture.

Quote:
Complete strangers know of the relationship breakdown between us because YOU tell them. Its in your writings, on your website.


The best that can be gleaned from reading our website is that there was a major split in the community in 1998 (and even then, I think it is a restricted article). So don't accuse me of making a public scandal out of your behaviour. The point is that I am accusing you of feeding information to a LOT of people, but particularly Tony and Brian, and that information provided by YOU has been used on Rick Ross' website. You were careful to keep your name out of it, but that was all. The idea was to embarrass and humiliate me, which you and Tony and Brian did extremely well.

Just two days ago, Brian listed a bunch of verses about me not being a fit leader because I cannot control my own family, forgetting that you were 33 years old when you left, and that you are over 40 now. I have certainly not been proud of the fact that you and your siblings have used your children as bargaining tools in your war against Cherry and me. So if I have been guilty of any deception in my life, it has been my attempt, even on the Rick Ross forum, to cover that up, by straight out accusing Brian of lying; which is when he revealed his source, apologising to you for doing it.

I wrote of you: Quote:
"Surely he knows about Rick Ross... but maybe not.


You wrote in reply: Quote:
" you are about to hang me on forgetting a name that I may or may not have heard"


And you say that *I* have a persecution complex

Matilda:

Maybe you should offer more context and commentary so readers can better understand the meaning and importance of what you post from McKay's statements.

Why is the quote or staement relevant and/or important specifically?

Perhaps you should also make it clear who is being quoted, speaking etc.

[www.accsoft.com.au]

Quote
Gladitzover
Here are Dave's latest comments on his forum.
QUOTE:
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:13 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest (ironic) news from the Rick Ross forum is that Brian (hardly our best friend over there) is being attacked from several different sides at once for posting Bible verses on the thread about the Jesus Christians. Some of them are being very pointed that they don't want any Bible verses put up there, that even if Brian thinks there is something in the verse that can be used as ammunition against us, he has to point it out for them, explain it very simply, because they have no interest in the Bible EXCEPT as it can be used to hurt us, and even then, they aren't able to see the point he is trying to make unless he gets very specific about leading them step by step through what it means.

Poor ole Brian is being forced to throw his Bible away before he will be allowed to be part of their club. I guess that since they have all thrown Jesus away already, it's not all that hard to trash the Bible as well!

Nice group, eh?
END QUOTE

Funny, I have been following things here and I completely missed the "several" people who are forcing Brian to "throw his Bible away". Maybe someone can "lead me step by step" and show me where all these people are. I don't want to be forced to throw my Bible away.

Looks like that one's aim at me. Or am I just being vain? Either way, I didn't think wanting more information was a 'bad' thing. What's wrong with an education? Anyway, an interesting post from 'McKay'...

Is he trying to plant the seed of uncertainty into this group? McKay writes, 'Poor Ole Brian' as though he has sympathy. Oh well, it can't do much. We don't have a cult leader brandishing the whip. We've only got self-censorship (without an edit button :wink: ) - even if it's a double-sided sword...look where it's got me now.

Yes, call me stupid, but I do like certain information simplified and/or translated. Like I said, call me stupid, but I thought it was a simple request. I didn't realise my curiosity was a strangled cat (sorry about that one, Kath) Or is it? Hmmm.

I made no mention of 'throwing' Bibles away. I love books (old fashioned, you see).

Part of a club? Yeah, sure...where did we keep the chocolate biscuits?

I'll keep my questions to a minimum. I promise. Wouldn't want to be seen as hysterical and/or heretical... :roll: