Hi Malcolm,

What did you mean by the quote below? Was Dave sacked from Petersham? Why?

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Malcolm Wesley WREST
You're no longer employed at the Boys Home in Petersham are you David. If I've been able to do that once....perhaps I'll be able to pull something similar off again............by the grace of God we shall see.

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Jack Oskar Larm
G'day Apostate,

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Pain seems to be the most humane and speedy form of human punishment. We could whip them strongly, without doing any damage to their teeth, brain, or spine. And it would all be over in just a few minutes...[i:4b586f4955]David McKay[/i:4b586f4955]

Does McKay hate God that much?

Admittedly I have limited knowledge of the Bible myth, but the above quote could easily have come from the mouth of Satan. I mean, it's as if he thinks Christian love (divine love :?: ) can be attained by exercising cruelty and violence on God's own children.

Yes Jack, David McKay actually HATES God and the teachings of Jesus, the very thing he professes to hold to. How else can he justify whipping people or, when the right circumstances arise, killing them.

Joseph, his latest recruit, should take note of such things before he gets sucked in too far.

In every area Dave finds the teachings of Jesus offensive. Malcolm said something earlier about Dave taking such teachings more literally than anybody else. He doesn't, it is all a con.

For example, take his biggest boast about not working for money. They all work 6 days a week on the street asking for money from strangers. They are doing it for money, pure and simple. They are not asking strangers for cans of baked beans, but money. Their motivation is obvious.

Yes Jack, David McKay hates God that much.

The interesting thing about whipping and corporal punishment in general is that it causes FEAR as the major emotion. Dave believes we should move away from jails and towards whipping instead. In other words, we should move away from contemplation and rehabilitation and move towards fear. The System has had more Christian influence in getting away from fear and reaction and towards rehabilitation. Dave's alternative System is a nightmare of fear and control. This is the opposite to faith and freedom.

If you want to see the results of corporal punishment that is carried out under current jurisdictions, have a look at this from malaysia
(warning, graphic content, much more serious than what you saw on FOX)
[www.corpun.com]

If the JC's want to see more corporal punishmen along the lines of Dave's Old Testament fantasies, we can see the beating of a woman by the Taliban here
[www.rawa.us]

The JC's think they are preaching the Gospel. All people see is wacky violence and a wierd cult wasting their lives promoting cruelty and an alternative system far more oppressive than the mainstream one. Sure, the "System" has problems. But Dave's alternative is far worse, a nightmare.

They believe in harsh corporal punishment to break the will of children too.

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cultmalleus
The interesting thing about whipping and corporal punishment in general is that it causes FEAR as the major emotion. Dave believes we should move away from jails and towards whipping instead. In other words, we should move away from contemplation and rehabilitation and move towards fear. The System has had more Christian influence in getting away from fear and reaction and towards rehabilitation. Dave's alternative System is a nightmare of fear and control. This is the opposite to faith and freedom.

If you want to see the results of corporal punishment that is carried out under current jurisdictions, have a look at this from malaysia
(warning, graphic content, much more serious than what you saw on FOX)
[www.corpun.com]

If the JC's want to see more corporal punishmen along the lines of Dave's Old Testament fantasies, we can see the beating of a woman by the Taliban here
[www.rawa.us]

The JC's think they are preaching the Gospel. All people see is wacky violence and a wierd cult wasting their lives promoting cruelty and an alternative system far more oppressive than the mainstream one. Sure, the "System" has problems. But Dave's alternative is far worse, a nightmare.

They believe in harsh corporal punishment to break the will of children too.

Thank you for that Cultmalleus. It helps to show the road that David McKay has embarked upon with his latest push to get the system of developed countries to go backwards to corporal punishment. He certainly does hate God and the teachings of Jesus. David McKay's teachings and actions provide ample evidence of that.

One wonders what sort of punishment they give to children. I am sure they take the old "Spare the rod, send the child to hell" approach to child raising.

Dave may just be so emotionally deficient and damaged that he is completely self centered. The idea that he is not the centre of the universe might never occur to Dave. I agree with Apostate that Dave appears to twist all of the teachings of Jesus.


Here are a few verses he should read over and over...
“If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?” (Luke 11:11-13)

I'm sure members join the JC's thinking it's all about serving God, loving others, living by faith, in a democratic community, after being disillusioned with the mainstream system; also for many it's about having a nice tidy response to a percieved oncoming apocalypse. Members often join in a period of emotional vulnerability.

Initially it can be exciting to live together going travelling and sharing your lives with mostly quite friendly people, especially if they have been lonely or lacked meaning in their lives. There are new tasks to learn and a mission in life. There is the comfort of having leadership to help remove uncertainty.

Then, gradually, like a bite from a viper, the poison comes in.

The inflexible schedules, quotas and rules drawn up by Dave. The restriction of contact with old friends and family. Being drawn into wierd publicity stunts that do not advance the cause of Christianity or even of the group.

Because of the memory of how life was before the JC's, with meaninglessness and loneliness, poison after poison is accepted after submitting to contorted arguments and peer pressure. We only have to look at experiments to see how powerful this effect is.

[en.wikipedia.org])

The JC's will claim that they have been subjected to the brainwashing of society all their lives and that the influence of the JC's is trivial by comparison. This is patently false.

Today's mainstream system in developed democratic countries is a pluralistic society. Sure, there are a lot of pressures to buy consumer goods if you are in particular social circles, but then one can find friends who are non materialistic. Anyway, you do not risk being expelled from your social group if you reject a particular marketing ploy.

In contrast, in the JC's, you can find yourself in an all night "grievance" session for disagreeing with a particular marketing ploy that Dave is proposing. The good of the group is still percieved to outweigh the bad so you go along with it. Anyway, by now you have been isolated and have no other framework of support or love so you go along with it; or else at the last resort you are sent off for "prayer and fasting" until you have twisted your mind around to really, really sincerely agree with the latest stunt. (if you are not 110% in agreement you might have to go and starve yourself some more)

David McKay exhibits Narcisitic tendencies.

The quote below, pinched from Wikipedia, gives a break down of a Narcisitic Personality Disorder (NPD). It also speaks of the formation of a "ao-narcissist", and is something I think all community members are forced to become as they endevour to continually please and appease Dave's Narcisism.

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People who are narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight, real or imagined. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.

Though individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism makes it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements.

The interpersonal relationships of patients with NPD are typically impaired due to the individual's lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, and constant need for attention. They frequently select as mates, and engender in their children, "co-narcissism," which is a term coined to refer to a co-dependent personality style similar to co-alcoholism and co-dependency.

Co-narcissists organize themselves around the needs of others. They feel responsible for others, accept blame readily, are eager to please, defer to other's opinions, and fear being considered selfish if they act assertively.

I can think of a few current members of the Jesus Christians who would fall into the "co-narcisist" group.

Yes Apostate, Co-narcissism aptly describes some of the JC´s. Malleus is quite right too in that the motivations of the rank and file members are sincere in the beginning until the ´vipers poison´is injected and then they begin to emulate the leader and believe his twisted lies.

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matilda
You believe the myths!!!

Dave´s group can not be compared to even the most corrupt church. It can be compared to the Family and Dave has copied most of his publicity stunts directly from them.
The Baby books are copied.
The sackcloth and ashes ruse was copied.
The forsake all policy was copied.
The litnessing policy was copied.
The list is endless.

I am posting a link to a book written by Deborah Davis, the daughter of David Berg, founder of the Children of God. At the end of each page you will find a further link to the next chapter. Ex JC´s should read this!

[www.exfamily.org]

The Children of God
The Inside Story By The Daughter Of The Founder, Moses David Berg
by Deborah (Linda Berg) Davis with Bill Davis, 1984


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This book is dedicated—

—to Mr. and Mrs. James P. Davis, and to the generation of parents who have suffered the painful tragedy of having children become cult members. Few will ever know the extent of their suffering;

—and to our children—Joyanne, John, Philip, Nina, Misty Dawn, Clare, David, Davida, and Barak Joseph. To the extent that each of the children has suffered for our sins, it is our prayer that they will learn by our mistakes, realizing that God's present blessing in our lives is but the result of His mercy upon a repentant spirit. May the truths presented in this book be the foundation for the establishment of many godly generations.

. Having been dominated for more than 30 years by the tyranny of religious hypocrisy and human weakness, I have made the choice to expose the sin of a family and of a man who have influenced tens of thousands of people in a very unrighteious and ungodly way. The family is the David Berg family, and the man is my father. For the past four years, I have examined the power that has dominated me, and I have accepted the responsibility to resist that power.
My resposibility entails self-examination, for neither my father nor his movement could have held any power over me at all unless I had yielded to them. It is said that in order to find a real solution, one must find a real problem. This book is an open and honest sharing of my life and heart, revealing the fetters that bound me and the turth that set me free. It was not easy to write this book. But difficulty does not diminish responsibility; I had to write it.
I can tell only my own story and write of my own involvement. This book is written from my perspective. There are close family members and friends who will be affected by my personal exposure. I am not telling their stories, for they may disagree with some things I say. Furthermore, this book is not meant to hurt or hurt them, but to share reality as I have seen it and lived through it.


¯ ¯



The Children of God movement founded by my father, David Berg, in 1968 has been known as "Teens for Christ," the "Revolution for Jesus," the "Children of God," and now the "Family of Love." The movement also broadcasts under the name "Music With Meaning" and "Musica Con Vida." Through music it has lured thousands of youth into its clutches. In today's news media and periodicals the movement is commonly referred to as "The Sex Cult of the Eighties."


¯ ¯



Most of the people in this book are alive; many are still in the cult. The story is wild and bizarre, but it is true. I sometimes find it hard to believe that it really happened to me, yet daily I am surrounded by the living scars and wounds to assure me that it is true. In all sense this story has fulfilled the axiom, "Truth is stranger than fiction." By the mercy of God, I can share it with you.
When I first left the cult, I hid the truth of who I was and what I had done. The past was like a razor's edge on which I was forced to lie—and the consequences of that past pushed me slowly but heavily upon it. Could I ever be a whole person again?
But I came to see that hiding the truth of my life would only hurt my children and spell disaster for them someday down the road of the future. Through the actions of my oldest daughter I saw that they could fall into the same trap as I. I realized I had to tell them the truth. And if it were important for my own children to know the truth, then what about the rest of society and the thousands who have been and are being affected?
I had to resolve tow issues in order to write this book. The first, my children's well-being, has been resolved. The second, my mother's well-being is deeply perplexing. In exposing myself I would affect my children: that is my duty. But in exposing my father, I affect my mother: that is painful. I have yet to resolve that pain; perhaps it will never be resolved. Consquently, I am suffering for this book.

[www.exfamily.org]

Thanks Matilda.

I thought this MO quote from Deborah's book struck a chord, and was part of the reason for the 1997 split, and the reason why the remaining JC's fell/backslid into an attitude of religiousity, seeing that it was mostly married couples with children that were forced out on to the streets.

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God will have no other gods before Him, not even the sanctity of the marriage god! If we broke up every so called marriage in the Revolution, and it did the work good, to make them put God first, it would be worth it! God is the greatest Destroyer of home and family of anybody. We are Revolutionary! We are . . . not even hesitating to destroy marriages that don't glorify God and put Him and His work first! Partiality towards your own wife or husband . . . strikes against the unity and supremacy of God's Family and its oneness and wholeness!

The bitterness of Dave, and the back slidden Jesus Christians, still rails against the faithful marriages of ex-members who were involved in that split... even to this day! 9 years on, they use their "forum" to make public and racial slurs against the women in these marriages by attributing base motives to them, as a way to justify their plan to copy what MO did before them.

It was shortly after that split that the JC's got into the doctrine of the 144,000 virgins for God. As Deborah discovered in the COG's, and married ex JC's soon discovered, being married meant taking on second class citizenship, and all that entails.

Yep, Dave disobeys the teachings of Jesus. He and the group are "pharisees", especially with regard to taking something from his/their family, be it financial or emotional support, to "Give it to God"; to let them all go suffering... while claiming "corban" See these passages from the person the Jesus Christians claim to be following.

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[i:3a229e401b]Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, `Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[/i:3a229e401b]

Kinda says it all, doesn't it.

Pharisees who teach kids to stop helping their parents or supporting their families claiming that in so doing it is a service to "God".

No wonder they hardly read the Bible anymore.