If all this new information to process is not enough for you, EE, then listen to this: I myself have met and interviewed McKay's mother Alice. She knows what a snake he is, too. Who would know him better then his own mother, I figured? Here is a link to my report of my meeting her (by phone), from page 196 of this board:

[forum.culteducation.com]

And from page 252:

Here is a link to a very interesting letter from DM's mother:

Look for the posts about Alice's letter there too, just scroll down until you find it. The post is entitled, "Is this Berg or Mckay? What is the source mentioned?":

[exfamily.org]

Truth Seeker provides some more details.

The following letter was published by David in News from Christians in March 1987:

Dear David,

You are not being led by God and you know it. You use all the world's systems for your own selfish ends, so you can go on with your lazy shiftless life. The Lord reminds me that you are of the world, and that I should separate myself from you and let Satan sift you until you come to your senses. As far as I am concerned you are not welcome to come back here until there is some change. You will not use our home while you discredit all that's right and good. I bind all evil where you are concerned. You have used your ability for evil and I am totally ashamed that the one I bore for nine months should turn against his country. You have brainwashed your wife and your children into worshipping at your feet, and may have even pulled the wool over the eyes of some of your brothers and sisters. Mom.

More from Truth Seeker:

This letter appears to have been written to Dave McKay by his Mother, Alice. It was published in McKay's newsletter, "News from Christians". He replied and signed his reply, DJ. DJ is McKay's nickname, as in David John McKay.

Appears even his Mother can't stand him. Three out of four of his kids have also disowned him.

McKay is the so called, "annointed apostle" of the Jesus Christians cult. He is a a former COG member.


I (and others) have a copy of this letter and I am itching to scan and post it (along with other material for the Archive), but cannot get my scanner out of storage yet in order to do so. Maybe somebody else can scan and post it first? Would you like to see it, EE?

In any case, I agree with apostate though. Try them out and see for yourself.

His mom has been wise to him for at least twenty years and told Dogmother and myself the same things when we spoke with her in person. This letter simply corroborates everything she told us.

Your time is gonna come David.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2008 07:18AM by zeuszor.

And furthermore, I have met DM face to face, shook his hand even, and personally observed how he behaves and interacts with others while under pressure. Apostate is an ex-member of his group and knows DM intimately well. Most people that get involved with DM to any degree or for any period of time eventually seem to see through him and leave anyway, and most people who join the JCs seem to eventually leave the group.

We are just trying to save you and your family a lot of grief. You do not have to take our word for it. Join up, forsake all, and see for yourself.

Trust us, DM is a creep. Please consider what I (we) say. As hard as it must be for you to believe it, please trust us, DM is not who he seems to be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2008 07:34AM by zeuszor.

Dear Egypt-Eira,

You have raised a VAST number of matters here...I'm not precisely sure which have been dealt with, to your satisfaction, in all the replies that have followed and hence, I've just quickly selected a couple from one of your earlier postings (I apolgize to others who may have already dealt with these issues in their own postings)....you ask:

XXXAsk them what "legal processes" govern membership?

Well, I wonder what ''legal processes'' governed Jesus, or any of the OT prophets. A group this size, with Divine Love at the core, surely needs no 'legal processes'???

"Richard M Green" might be able to clarify this, however my understanding is that those who claimed to be prophets in the period of the Old Testament were stoned to death in the event that they made a prophecy which proved to be false. In the middle 80's I (along with all the other members of the time) distributed pamphlets which stated that "In a few years, America will completely destroyed by Russia in a surprise nuclear attack"....these tracts were the written work of David McKay, in themes that you may also see repeated in the the booklet "The fall of America" if you can lay hold of a copy for yourself...

The "legal processes" governing David McKay and his ilk today, (prosecution under the criminal code for Misrepresentation; Wilful Fraud;....torts undertaken in courts through class actions, e.g Negligence and Larceny through Undue Influence) seem rather more judicially "reasonable" to me in comparison with earlier practises. If you'd prefer to reference the standards of scripture however (as David might claim he does),.... it would seem that we need to set an execution date.....

ANY group of ANY size has "codes" of practise enshrined in a social contract.....(...the JesusChristians just so happen to have satanically oppressive ones, courtesy of David McKay...).....whether or not these codes are formalized into "statutes" or "legislation" may depend on the numbers involved...but the "expectations" of behavioural standards are still there, regardless.

Davids' (inanely repeated) comment that the JesusChristians don't need "contracts" (say, for protecting the rights and property of new members) or a "constitution" (e.g detailing how "office bearers" are to be elected) is not only arrant nonsense, it is deliberate dishonesty that deceitfully seeks to justify the perpetuation of one-(very sick)-man-rule, that the JesusChristians practise.


XXXAsk them why you will have no right to private communication of your own, with anyone external to the organization?

Is this true? Can you give me solid examples? On the JK show they stated the opposite, and it felt like they were saying the truth. Dave's wife seems like a nice, caring, maternal figure ... is she just blatantly lying?? I feel not ...

It is UTTERLY true, and they she IS indeed "blatantly lying"....this incident alone should give you pause in any association you might be considering with them! My "solid examples" will date of course from my period with them (Christmas 81 to June 85).....for your purposes you need some "solid examples" from the present time.....please have a look through Joe Johnsons' writings on the JC forum and get back to me in private....any specific matter I make mention here, will be subject to purposely "amended" histories....look at what Joe has said and contact me later via a PM.



I understand how difficult it is to imagine how introverted a world they are trapped in.....however the Exclusive Bretheren would be a comparable example, IMO.

While others may have had different experiences, I personally, have only a very few memories of a "nice, caring maternal" Cherry (when she's safely OFF camera) myself.....and I would probably just wish her to hell.......if I didn't know that she was already there.

Dear EE,

I have been away for a few days on holiday and therefore have only just caught up on the forum. Firstly i want to thank you for your posts. It is very brave of you to come on to this forum when getting interested in the JC. When i first got interested in them i didnt want to join this forum and really believed that the people on here were "hate-mongers" as Dave says on his forum. I have since found out that the people on this forum are not working together and are independant thinkers who really show concern for others.

I would encourage you to take Franky up on her offer to meet up, she is a very genuine person and not at all like what Dave says about her. As she has said it is very hard to communicate on the internet, wires can get crossed and things can be taken out of context.

I would also encourage you to see first hand what the JC are like. I was an "associate member" for only 3 months and saw what they are like. So if you really want to know then spend time with them. At first you will be welcomed in with open arms. You will be show a lot of love and think that everything is wonderful with the Jesus Christians. You will defend them to the ends of the earth. But then you will have to earn your love and do thngs to prove you are worthy, you will then question them and then you will really see thier wrath.

I take it you live in the UK? That means you will spend time with the UK team, you will see first hand the control that is in the group.

I think what Apostate was trying to convey to you is not being sarcastic, he is trying to help. You need to remember that he is one person who can really express what it is like in the cult, he was a member for many years. So when he tells you to join i really believe that he is not being sarcastic he is encouraging you to experience is first hand.

I do hope that you will take on board what people have said and not be so quick to hate people on this forum, Dave will send you emails that says awful things about people here. Dont believe all he says, things are not always as they seem. I hope you will question what is being taught and i pray that God will show you the direction he wants you to take in your life.

Please consider this... Dave (and when i say dave i mean all the JC) WILL encourage you to seperate from your friends and family, he will convince you that they are evil and "of the world" But please remember the people that truely love you.

Love in Christ

Kirstie xx

Read what Barbiedoll says (last posting). True. True for you too. Even if you don't think so.

TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THIS ONE:



Better off dead? Did you catch that? This article is over 20 years old. Sue's entire adult life really has been one long coercion by DM. Sue would be turning forty soon, if she has not already. That's sad, isn't it? And with an ill father, too.

I think that I have met somebody that claimed to have a copy of that very ("better off dead") letter and will try to obtain a copy for scanning and archiving.

In reading your responses, Egypt-E, I am struck with the realization that no one can tell us certain things, we have to discover them for ourselves. I just pray that you don’t wake up over twenty years from now and think, “what have I done with the best years of my life?”

I wonder if Sue ever thinks this way?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2008 06:13AM by zeuszor.

Dear Zuesor,

22 years later, I can only regret that the message wasn't written up more strongly....that is, that the Jesus Christians put pressure on members (inuendo about their "worthiness", and comments intended to humiliate them over their "lack of faith", threats of the loss of the meagre privileges they have and countess "grievance meetings") to break ANY family (or other!) ties that threaten to compete with David's ownership over their lives.

David of course is now the father of three EX-members and here displays exactly the same self-seeking strategy of the prostitution of scripture (...his writing's full of "biblical" verse Egypt-Eira ...that in NO way supports what he does!).....the passage from Mark 9:42 "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." (Also Matthew 18:6 & Luke 17:2) in David's psychopathic "reading" equating leaving the JesusChristians as equivalent to losing one's faith:

HENCE, evidence yet again Egypt-Eira, that you are dealing with a fraud (William Booth took every cent from those who joined the Salvation Army, and isolated them in small "cells" where he forbade marriage and monitored the communication of members, thorough a network of informants (called "leaders") while claiming that every one external to his organization were not "saved"....Please, remind me again will you... )

If you HAVE to experiment with David McKay, please at least, bring your children to the attention of the National Child Protection Services in order that if you become entrapped, at least your sons and daughters, may not have their futures compromised (....the loss of years of schooling in order that they can alternatively spend that time, distributing Davids' doleful writing, and collecting money for him!)

Hello everyone ...

well, as I said before, a lot of food for thought. Thank you for all of your information. I will endevour to make some sort of list of problems / accusations and look into each individually for a while. There is one accusation in particular which I will follow up v soon, and report back.

I have now emailed Dave in person and he has mailed me back with a nice message of support. It will indeed be interesting to hear the opposite perspective on all of the above. I have also finished the Survivors book ... it really is quite something. Whatever transpires as regards my membership of teh JCS, I have found the teachings inspirational and transformitive. Listening awaits tonight ... is there another, third book?? I am also plannign to reread the Ronson interview ...

Well, I shall keep posting here regularly if thats ok ... I do appreciate anyone warning me in teh spirit of Love, and may father God of Love be with you all. I mean that.

As for my family, well I dont make rash decisions. I love my family very much and will be talking to them of what I have learnt over the past few weeks.

One thing I did say to dave was that I like the wa he says 'HA!' to people. Thats quite an Irish thing ... to approach all manner of situations, good or bad, with humour and zest. HA! nicely sums up the feeling of the people of this Island, after all we have been through communally, and yet still stand fillled with Faith, and still Loving.

RE BARBIEDOLL (and thanks for postin)

xxxI do hope that you will take on board what people have said and not
xxxbe so quick to hate people on this forum,

I dont hate anyone on this forum! I seek only Truth ... we are all made in Gods image

xxxDave will send you emails that says awful things about people here. Dont believe all
xxxhe says, things are not always as they seem. I hope you will question what is being
xxx taught and i pray that God will show you the direction he wants you to take in your life.

Well, to be fair, you have collectively said awful things about him and his wife ...(that his wife should go to hell for example). I will test 'all the Spirits', as we are told to do, and I trust God that he will lead me into Truth!! I know a man who, for many years, treated his wife very very badly. He said to me one day, 'Im human as well you know'. Everyone hated him, even his sons ... and yet, as he stated, he was still human and still had feelings of his own, despite the opinions of others. in no way do I defend his behaviour to his wife, but when I stand before God, I will be as black as black ... and only his Love will save me ...

Best wishes ... EE

Hi Kirstie,

I think I'm right in saying that you're the most recent person to have been an "associate member" of the Jesus Christians.

With that in mind, can you give us an insight into the daily routine?

I'm particularly interested to know whether there's any voluntary work with the poor, the sick, the elderly or the homeless, or indeed anything that could legitimately be described as community work. Additionally, what proportion of effort goes into selling David McKay's books? Where does the money go? What are you told about claiming benefits? And what about Bible discussions? Is there much theological debate and are any topics (e.g. end-time prophesies) the subject of particular discussion?

I apologize for all the questions (I guess the first one is the key one - the others are just some of my particular areas of interest). It's just that I think your shedding some light on this would be really helpful to this forum and in particular to people like Egypt-Eira who are considering joining the Jesus Christians.

With love,

Talamasca

Dear Talamasca.

I dont have a lot of time at the moment to go into EVERYTHING but i dont mind sharing my experiences with the Jesus Christians.

The time that i spent with the JC was filled with pumping the bible into me and getting out books!

I would wake up at about 7am, meet at 8am for breakfast and first meeting of the day, where we shared dreams, thoughts and emails. All emails were read out and things from the forum (s). Then a study taken from one of Dave's teachings. Then at approx 10am start distributing. Break for lunch, usually subway. Then more distributing. Because i worked with Sue we would finish at about 3pm ready to meet Danny from School. We then did some bin raiding and cooked dinner and all met up again for dinner. Most evenings were spent together. First everyone would look at thier emails and add to the forum. We would then usually have a game of some kind. Either Mafia (which i loved BTW) or a crd game or something similar. Then bed time at about 9-9.30.

That was a usual day with the Jesus Christians. I did not do any community work, help the poor, help the sick or homeless. I did nothing for other people in love, i just had to spend time learning and getting books out. Towards the end of my time with them i hurt my back very badly and could not and did not want, to get books out. So i did NOTHING!

I have no idea where ALL the money goes. Some is spent on vehicles, a little amount on food. Essentials that cant be found in the bins that day. Obviously a lot is spent on the actual books. They come from India so the shipping costs are paid for. The rental of the garages to store the books. Pocket money for everyone in the UK team. To be fair i did always get my train fair paid for, out of my donations. But actually i did not make very much money! I was told by Sue that i "would one day be a good distributor" but actually i neverknew what was more important, getting the books out or getting the money in!

As far as i am aware no-one in the UK team claims benifits, but honestly i have no idea. I was told they dont but that was it, no other discussion was made about it.

As for theological debates... well i didnt really argue much, i was so keen to take it all in i just believed what was being said. Most of the time anyway, if i did question anything then i would be quoted Jesus' teachings and nothing else was said about it.

Discussions about "the mark of the beast" and "people marked for division" and who had upset them were daily topics. They did not hold back on thier slating of others and i did not hear of anything being said in love for anyone outside of the group. Even my friends were slated and i was encouraged to cut them out of my life and cause arguments with them.

It is true one is encouraged to not have contact with their friends and family. I could tell you many stories of occasions when i had arguments with my family and my friends. But as i said i dont have a lot of time or energy. ( I am burying my grandmother tomorrow)

I hope this helps, please feel free to ask me anything else. I wont be online tomorrow but im sure i will be soon.

Hope everyone is well.

I also hope that the Jesus Christians are well and start to think independantly soon. Especially you Sue!

Love Kirstie

p.s Egypt Eira... I have never once said anything bad about Cherry, she is a very nice person who is caught up in Dave's lies and deception. That goes for all of them. They are actually all very nice people who, if Dave was not thier leader, would have a really good community. If they just changed some of what they do and how they see others they could be a very Christian community.