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Josh
I think the thing that was frustrating me about the questions being asked about the whipping thing, not just by you but by alot of people, was that it was continually being raised as a question to Dave and then people acting surprized or newly disgusted when he didn't answer. Everyone knows he's not going to answer, so asking the questions over and over seems like beating your heads against a wall.

I don't think that "everyone knows" he won't answer. It seems to have received a lengthy response from you Josh. Which is appreciated by the way because it opens up the dialogue again and give me and others a chance to get our point, and the perspective of the Kenyan government across.

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Josh
Someone from Kenya stole from the JCs
The punishment for stealing in Kenya is somethink like 20 lashes
The JCs gave the guy a choice,
a. Get turned into the police for theft
b. Take 5 lashes from the JCs
c. Have a JC take them for him
The Kenyan chose option c

I am assuming all of these things are true. I have no other option since I wasn't there and have never heard anyone contradict the facts of this story.

That sounds pretty accurate going on how Dave presented the events on his website.

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Josh
I should also say that I don't see reasonable corporal punishment as being inherently immoral. So I don't have a problem with the government of Kenya giving 20 lashes for theft rather than a jail sentence as long as the accused has the option of a fair trial. Do you disagree at this point? Do you think the Kenyan government is out of line giving lashes for theft?

It is curious that you say you have no problem with the Kenyan government whipping people and yet the Kenyan government clearly does (see [www.corpun.com]) for the source of the below article. So having posted what the Kenyan government clearly thinks about the issue of whipping I would have to say that the corrupt police and the Jesus Christians are clearly out of line as the group whipped the Kenyan volunteer in 2006, 3 years after the criminal law code of Kenya was changed. This means that the JC's engaged in a criminal action. Still not having a problem with a professing Christian "quaker" group whipping someone?


Daily Nation,

Nairobi, 16 September 2003

Changes in criminal law significant

By Pravin Bowry

(extracts)

Recent procedural changes in criminal law have ushered in a new era in criminal jurisprudence. The long-term effect of the changes will, in future, be seen as a milestone.

It is ironical that this moment of great legal, national and historical importance has gone largely unnoticed.

The Criminal Law (Amendment) Act (Act No 5 of 2003) came into force on July 25, 2003. Heading the laudable list of changes was abolition of corporal punishment.

Since the advent of the colonial era, and through the post-independence period, Kenyans have been humiliated by the law stipulating whipping for convicts, legally known as corporal punishment.

This was a colonial means of control, a means of demeaning humanity. That it continued into independent Kenya is something Kenyans will have to reflect on.

And the manner of carrying out the sentence under the Prisons Act was so repulsive that right-thinking humans should have abhorred it long before now.

Corporal punishment is headline news in other countries. I have vivid memories of a renowned American photographer in Kenya having been sentenced to caning in 1968 and the New York Times published banner headline: "American to be flogged in Kenya".

It is, therefore, gratifying that, from July 25, some dignity to the penal system has been added by abolishing corporal punishment. Human rights organisations will now give Kenyans a few more marks for whatever they are worth.

Those who know the history of criminology are aware that the greater part of investigations and, indeed, convictions relies on confessions to the police.

The Criminal Law (Amendment) Act has put an end to confessions (other than to a magistrate in open court) being accepted as evidence.

In both the colonial and post-colonial periods, trials centred on confessions obtained by police, contrary to the so-called "Judges Rules", but under a system of institutionalised torture.

....................

Mr Bowry is a Nairobi-based lawyer

Copyright ©2003, Nation Media Group Ltd. All rights reserved.

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Josh
So then I believe the JCs would have the right to whip someone that stole from them in the absence of the government.

moot point

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Josh
I don't see the moral difference of who was swinging the whip. If the JCs had struck the deal and hired an employee of the state to swing the whip using tax funds to do the hiring I don't see how that would be more acceptable.

As I have established the fact that the JC's did in fact break Kenyan law by whipping that volunteer I doubt they could hire someone other than a thug to do likewise.

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Josh
So while I think there are better ways to handle the theft than the way it was handled, I do think that the JCs did not violate anyones rights in handling it the way they did.

Yes they did. That volunteer had the right to NOT get whipped according to Kenyan law since 2003. That was ignored in the dispensation of JC vigilante justice



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2008 05:58AM by apostate.

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hello

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zeuszor
Hi all. I hope that all are well. Just a short note from me to let to let you all know that I am still out here and am doing well. I still read this board, have not forgotten about you all, and keep up here in general but am done with spending (notice I didn't say wasting, as I regret none of it) so much time and energy obsessing about DM and his group's activities. I have better, more satisfying, and more important things to do with my life. It's not that I have lost interest, it's only that I have been busy lately and really do not have that much to say. Also, my Internet connection has been down anyway...a blessing in disguise, as it's helped me wean off from my forum addiction. ;-)

David, I hope that you are reading this. I don't have to be so wound up worrying about you. It's only a matter of time. You'll get yours. I'll be watching and waiting.

More as time allows. Stay tuned. If/when I can get my scanner back (sometime soon I hope) I'll put more stuff up for the Visual Archive; I have wanted to scan this material for weeks now. It'll be fun. See y'all later,

Z

Brian! I'm glad you're well! Namaste bro.xx

Thanks, beautiful. Namaste!

We trust that you have been well also.

I registered for the new jcx site, but still no reply or validation of my registration. I do not know who runs things there, but may I please have access?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2008 01:07PM by zeuszor.

so much time and energy obsessing about DM and his group's activities. I have better, more satisfying, and more important things to do with my life.
David, I hope that you are reading this. I don't have to be so wound up worrying about you. It's only a matter of time. You'll get yours. I'll be watching and waiting.

300 plus posts. All discussing this Dave McKay ... he must be activating something essential within all of you??

I am currently getting in contact with the JCs directly with a view to joining. Have read their site and the teachings seem powerful yet direct. Have also watched the Jeremy Kyle show and thought that they were treated appaulingly.

Perhaps all this negative feeling and activity towards Dave is the persecution that we are told to expect as followers of Christ. The cross is peopled by those who criticise. Dave seems to have reached a stage where if people criticise him he can brush this off with humour and occasionaly with a bit of emotional bite. What is wrong with emotional bite? He is not a politician, so why not let the emotion erupt, filling words with power? How many guests have wanted to directly rebuke Jeremy Kyle for his behaviour? And how many actually have? I, for one, see that moment as being very reminiscent of Jesus himself ... its ok for us to read about Jesus, and 'meditate' upon his words ... but to see someone shouting 'hypocrite', (with his wife of so many years faithfully sitting beside him!) is inspirational.

Well, just a few thoughts. Hello to everyone, have read some posts in this thread and you all sound interesting!

God bless you all, Egypt-Eira

PS A question ... my friend has recommended that I read Survivors. (He knows nothing of my recent online researches into the JCS.) Should I read it?

If so, why if its author is so evil? If not, why?

I have grown tired of the articulate utterances of men and things. The Mystical in Art, the Mystical in Life, the Mystical in Nature this is what I am looking for.

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Egypt-Eira
so much time and energy obsessing about DM and his group's activities. I have better, more satisfying, and more important things to do with my life.
David, I hope that you are reading this. I don't have to be so wound up worrying about you. It's only a matter of time. You'll get yours. I'll be watching and waiting.

300 plus posts. All discussing this Dave McKay ... he must be activating something essential within all of you??

I am currently getting in contact with the JCs directly with a view to joining. Have read their site and the teachings seem powerful yet direct. Have also watched the Jeremy Kyle show and thought that they were treated appaulingly.

I strongly encourage you to join their group Egypt -Eira. Doing so may help you come to a firm decision about something so that you no longer have to say two opposing things at the same time. I find it a little confusing, so I cannot imagine what it must be like for you.

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Egypt-Eira
PS A question ... my friend has recommended that I read Survivors. (He knows nothing of my recent online researches into the JCS.) Should I read it?

If so, why if its author is so evil? If not, why?

I encourage you to read it intensely. In fact I encourage you to deeply immerse yourself in all his teachings and to follow everything he tells you to do. Why do I say this. Because I believe you will learn a more significant life lesson than any ex member can ever present with mere words. So please dive in deep. Do not give it another thought. Don't hesitate. Do it now. Follow what you consider to be the truth. Walk away from everything. Drop out. Sell all. Give your body as a living sacrifice. Stand on every street corner passing out Dave's books and tracts. Go quickly while you have it in you to do so... and then after you have done so come and speak with us.

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apostate

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Egypt-Eira
so much time and energy obsessing about DM and his group's activities. I have better, more satisfying, and more important things to do with my life.
David, I hope that you are reading this. I don't have to be so wound up worrying about you. It's only a matter of time. You'll get yours. I'll be watching and waiting.

300 plus posts. All discussing this Dave McKay ... he must be activating something essential within all of you??

I am currently getting in contact with the JCs directly with a view to joining. Have read their site and the teachings seem powerful yet direct. Have also watched the Jeremy Kyle show and thought that they were treated appaulingly.

Oops I forgot to put the first few lines in quotes (new to this forum business). So I infact didnt say 2 opposing things!!


I encourage you to read it intensely. In fact I encourage you to deeply immerse yourself in all his teachings and to follow everything he tells you to do. Why do I say this. Because I believe you will learn a more significant life lesson than any ex member can ever present with mere words. So please dive in deep. Do not give it another thought. Don't hesitate. Do it now. Follow what you consider to be the truth. Walk away from everything. Drop out. Sell all. Give your body as a living sacrifice. Stand on every street corner passing out Dave's books and tracts. Go quickly while you have it in you to do so... and then after you have done so come and speak with us.

This response seems to just be mocking my post. Bit upset really. I am a genuine seeker after Truth and am looking for some sensible dialogue about my possible joining the JCS, and about their literature. Not very constructive really.

Anyone out there wanting a constructive dialogue??

God bless, EE

Fran "protesteth too much me thinks"

Craig is lying when he says that we ignored the volunteer's right to not get whipped. He knows, as does everyone who has actually read what we have written, that the volunteer could choose to accept a punishment, or he could choose to have someone else take the punishment for him. He did not have to be whipped at all. However, he personally chose to accept the punishment of five lashes from a whip. Now, think about what that did spiritually for him. He was taking personal responsibility for what he had done. And because the punishment was fair, it was over and done with quickly and he was able to get on with his life, having learned some valuable lessons.

People like Craig who go on about us having broken the law by offering a punishment of five lashes, which the person did not even have to accept, not only miss the point (on purpose, it would seem) but seem very hypocritical. They would rather us and the police prosecute someone according to the law, letting them rot in prison for however many years, than allegedly "break the law" by offering the offender a much more loving sentence (even with the option of not having to accept the sentence if they so wished!). Hypocrites! The more they fight us, the more they expose themselves!

For all the complaints that the Rickettes make, the fact of the matter is that the Kenyan man who was whipped NEVER complained about having been punished. Instead he apologised and THANKED US for having offered a light punishment. And, although he has moved to another city, he still calls us from time to time to say hi and tell us how much he misses us!! So, the Rickettes, and whoever else is prepared to condemn us for our approach to his theft, have no effect on me. What we did was definitely loving. The offender says so. The rest are just idle gossipers, far removed from reality, and focussed only on destroying our community.

The volunteer DID NOT have the THIRD choice of a fair trial without fear of a whipping Fran. That is the point. Corporal punishment is illegal in Kenya. Your apostle says as much. If the police in Kenya were happy for you to go ahead and whip the person it hardly makes it right. Why do you not role model an example of true Christianity and exercise a little "he who takes your coat, let him take your shirt also" perspective. Why follow the path of least resistance?

The volunteer was presented with the choice of having you turn him over to some police who were prepared to act illegally, by Kenyan standards, be whipped by your group, or let you be whipped for him. There was no higher choice presented by your group. No choice actually supporting the laws of the land as put into place since 2003. Instead your group added to the very lawlessness and disrespect for humanity the Kenyan government was seeking to overcome. Your group by doing this act had become part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. I do not understand why it is such a struggle for your apostle of you to accept this.

The fact that he "thanked" you, as you claim, means little. Many people who have been abused will thank their abusers. You wrote that he thanks you for only whipping him five times. This is your proof that you right by him. Seriously?

The fact is, your group BROKE Kenyan law by whipping that volunteer who you claim broke a law by stealing from you ... and yet, you say I am the hypocrite for pointing out this fact.

Hi again,

just wondering about the other new book, Listening. Anyone read this?

Have been reading some Libeator style cartoon books on the jcs website, ... very powerful!! I have been involved in several of middle-class churches and felt, as members roll up on a sunday in their flashy cars, that the essential Spirit of Christ was not in evidence. Jesus, if he came back now, would probably rather have a drink in the pub with the so called 'sinners'.

I have just obtained dave mckay's email address and wil be emailing him soon to introduce myself. I have not received a response to my aplication to join his forum yet, but hopefully will soon. V excited, though so much on this site warns me of dangers. So, I would like to ask (those who would give me a sincere, non sarcastic response) what dangers exist relating to JCS membership?

I find their ideology largely very appealing ... thats too weak a word ... very powerful!! What would you (plural) disagree with about the philosophy / belief system? (Specific points please!)

Best wishes, EE

Dear Egypt-Eira,

(You have of course asked to be put in touch with some recent ex-members such as Vicki or Martin in order to verify what the JesusChristians have told you about themselves, haven't you?)

.....You are so right in what you write!.... the JesusChristians on the Jeremy Kyle program treated Liesel and most everyone else, appallingly didn't they....Yes and Sues' condescension to the woman who suffered for years under the Children of God, was even worse than appalling....!!

I, can only echo Apostates shrewd advice....there is really no need for you to believe a single word that it is said on these pages about David McKay....if you actually meet David, you will no doubt find that David warmly smiles very sweetly to you, (while his cold calculating eyes weigh you up), and patiently shares with you many personally encouraging observations that are deeply challenging (e.g....it's a hard road that "Christ" calls you to follow, but those 144,000 who are worthy of the calling, will by God's grace, somehow find the strength to submit to the leading of God's Apopstle....and I know you are one of the 144,000, aren't you Egypt-Eira!!....)....

Christs teaching are powerful and direct and ANYONE who gratuitously claims them as their own, can obviously be blindly trusted...(David Koresh, Jim Jones and last and definitely least, David McKay, ...to name but a few!)

Idi Amin and Pol Pot (the Cambodian "killing fields" ) were both eventually persecuted for what they believed in (nothing other than their own power over the lives of others) and thus clearly they must have been Men of God, suffering righteous persecution....because they wouldn't have been persecuted so, unless they were speaking up on behalf of God, surely!!

I'd also encourage you to read Survivors...... and then if can so stoop ever so briefly, compare it a little with the trite works of Tolstoy or Gandhi!


Lets face it!...the only things that you could possibly lose from a decision to join the JesusChristians, are:

everything you own;
all your current friends and family;
your present career and any personal aspirations,
countless years of your life,
any psychological or ethical integrity you may have,

and possibly your soul....

Thank you for your blessings on our postings here....I too pray that God may so bless my sarcasm such that it may alert you to how vulnerable you appear to be!!

Fran, Fran my macho man!

You are just s-o-o-o right, in all the clever "come uppance" you cleverly chastise that nasty, wizened, old Apostate with (....in a forum where he can't reply to you!!)

I only ask you one teeny-tiny, miniscule, little favour....just give me the contact details of the man you whipped (well he rings you to "thank" you all the time doesn't he), the names and address's of a few witnesses to the event and a copy of the "legal waiver" you had him sign....

Hello again ...

Idi Amin and Pol Pot (the Cambodian "killing fields" )

I have to say, this seems very bizarre. I am asking for sincere, non-sensational advice and information. I have even asked for SPECIFIC points for me to consider. But then comes a message comparing Dave to Idi or Pol?? These are widely understood to be mass murderers! So, what does this have to do with the JCS?? Sue and Roland seem perfectly nice. Others I have emailed seem nice.

And why such sarcastic, antagonistic messages?

Fran and Josh, (hi) seem like polite, well meaning, thinking individuals. you wont treat my honest enquiries with sarcasm, will you?

Lastly, about teh Jeremy Kyle show, myself, my wife and my friend ALL thought that Jeremy was utterly rude and biased towards teh JCS. 'Where 2 or 3 are gathered together ...' It was like a witch hunt, where the mob was fired up beforehand, then their fury 'channeled' by the host towards these seemingly nice people. Doesnt add up?

So, please, only replies that 1 address the issues I hav raised and 2 are writted in a respectful manner.

Love to all, EE