Egypt-Eira: :

I don't think you are here to seriously examine anything.

Apparently you are willing to accept whatever spin McKay and his followers provide.

The group makes you feel good and so you are willing to believe whatever they say.

OK.

But there is only so much time people here will be willing to waste with you.

Your posts come across as just a sing-song of support for McKay with little real substance or analysis of any kind.

For example, longevity doesn't give the McKay group or any group meaningful credibility.

Jim Jones, Moses David Berg, Marshal Applewhite, L. Ron Hubbard, Yogi Bhajan, Rev. Moon, Yisrayl Hawkins, Rulon Jeffs and many other purported "cult leaders" have led "for more than 20 years."

Actually the above named leaders did better than Dave McKay, e.g. retention, turnover rate, growth, and/or number of followers.

Does that make them credible?

The "precise facts" have been reported about McKay repeatedly and are readily available through archived articles and the 300 plus pages of this thread.

For example, Mrs. Dave McKay collects a government check, which she and her husband use to live on.

If you are really interested in learning the facts about the McKay group do some serious research.

FOR HELLO ...

What a great forum name!! and hello to you as well ...

xxxit's difficult to know what to say to you. You have your own spiritual journey to go on.

It feels like im starting an amazing journey. Im 33yo, travelled the world, but only now do I feel a true inner awakening!!

xxxI mean, the whole thing is pretty basic. Jesus is asking us to do things-
xxxas laid out in the gospels. The JC's appear to be doing those things.
xxxI devoured all the literature, met several members of the group- and
xxxreally wanted to join. They were really inspirational to me.

Sounds positive. Echoes my feelings at present ... so many of their 'stunts' or 'activities' an inspiration


XXXAs a result of meeting the JC's- I went and lived by faith- I've eaten out of many bins!

In my eyes that qualifies you to give me great advice. i shall consider your posts carefully.

xxxI'm now a healer- ( there are far more references to healing in the gospels than forsaking
xxxall)- the foundation I trained with works alongside the NHS.

Syncronicity!! I wont go into detail now, but this interests me VERY much. My only career ambition is to heal ... (possibly through my piano playing??) I often wondered what role healing played in the JCS.

xxxOnce you understand the science and psychology- you understand why
xxxmicro- chip technology is a bad idea!

I intend to lead people out from the digital desert ... ones and zeros equals division ...

xxxI think one of the worst ways to communicate is by internet.

This is my first forum ive contributed to. Fun so far, but a little scary when people seem angry ...

xxxI make great cookies and could introduce you to loads of interesting people.

Where like mindeds meet, there magic may arise. This principle is one other reason Im so interested in the JCS. Here are gathered seemingly idealisic and sincere individuals trying to live out their faith ...

God is Love, EE

PS Cookies sound great!!

PPS Ireland, in the Sun, is paradise ... we all know it, thats why we're so jolly:-)

FOR RRMODERATOR

This last post seems a little personal.

xxxI don't think you are here to seriously examine anything.

Really? Ive looked over my posts and they seem logical and inquisitive?? Anyone out there agree that Im not serious about examining anything after reading my posts??

xxxThe group makes you feel good and so you are willing to believe whatever they say.

This is projection on your part. I have never met or spoken to any group member. So how could this be so?? I am impressed with their literature, and think they were hard done by on JK show. But your statement is off.

xxxBut there is only so much time people here will be willing to waste with you.

That feels unfair and a little personal. ?? If you reread my posts do you really feel I deserve this?

xxxYour posts come across as just a sing-song of support for
xxxMcKay with little real substance or analysis of any kind

???

xxxFor example, longevity doesn't give the McKay group or any group meaningful credibility

Really?? Surely a group increases in credibility as it endures. Historical parallels are numerous ... Salvation Army, Methodists, Calvinists, Presbyterians ... possibly even the Jesus Army (see their new Jesus Centres). So, in this case, I must state that you are simply wrong. It gives many groups credibility as they evolve and develop links and respect within the world at large.

xxxThe "precise facts" have been reported about McKay repeatedly

Well, if its thsi simple, why dont you present a post with, say, ten facts as to the JCS abusive behaviour. Im just looking for Truth. THen I can take those ten 'facts' and check them out and report back for a discussion. That is what a discussion board is for?? OR is this defined as wasting time??

xxxFor example, Mrs. Dave McKay collects a government check, which she and her husband use to live on

??? and ...

xxxIf you are really interested in learning the facts about the McKay
xxxgroup do some serious research

Well, wouldnt joining a discussion board which criticises the group qualify as serious research??

God is Love, EE




RRMODERATOR, just be straight with me. Read this post and if you really feel that it would be better I leave the forum then I will do.

Eygpt... why are you hesitating? Join the group today. Commit yourself 110% to do what they say. Do it. Learn for yourself. You seem like someone who is able to articulate their opinion. Do the same with Dave after you join.

Quote
apostate
Eygpt... why are you hesitating? Join the group today. Commit yourself 110% to do what they say. Do it. Learn for yourself. You seem like someone who is able to articulate their opinion. Do the same with Dave after you join.

Not helpful

BTW Egypt,
I thought I'd better mention that sexual abuse has taken place in the JC community. A male member molested a young boy. The JC's response was to tell the man he had to leave the community. Their justification was that the man was ' slow'- though he had responded to the teachings. As a mother, what I find shocking is that they left this man free to molest again.
I'm not into corporal punishment- nor do I believe that this man- should be condemned- but I believe they had a responsibilty to see the situation through. If the man was ' slow'- he needed help and support from the proper authorities. They basically washed their hands of him- which wasn't helpful to him, the child- or any future child he happens to molest.
Also the JC's have been involved in two cases of kidnapping- both involving underage boys. I'm sure if you ask them- they'll tell you how their behaviour was totally ' above board' etc.
However, if you're familiar with Jung- you'll understand that sometimes people do things without admitting their real feelings to themselves- let alone others. The fact remains- all THREE of these incidents have Roland involved and present. I'm sure he has a reasonable explanation.
I don't believe that having a wife' lovingly' by your side on public view, means that you're not capable of abuse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2008 06:53AM by hello.

Egypt:

You joined this message board to defend and spin for Dave McKay and his followers.

One example is your choice to quote Hello out of context.

Hello chose to ultimately dump McKay and move on, a fact you ignored.

Another example is your spin on the JK show.

McKay came across very badly on this television program. He walked off the set when he didn't get his way.

When people make a point about your behavior it's somehow "not helpful."

The facts are available to you or anyone else that is serious about legitimately researching McKay, but you have chosen to ignore this too.

Quote
apostate
I will try and simplify this for you Josh by replacing the word "thief" with "adulterer" in the hope that it may trigger some memory you have of how Jesus dealt with a person viewed as committing a crime. (I hope you do not mind me taking such a liberty with your words)

I don't mind at all. You do make a good point with this. Something for me to consider.

What I keep coming back to is what I mentioned above about what a 98% Christian country would be like. Could a society really function in the real world always turning the other cheek? I grant you the point that to follows Jesus's example would be to always turn the other cheek, but do you think this would work on a large scale? The question's not rhetorical. It seems to lack faith in Christ to say that it wouldn't work for everyone to always turn the other cheek, but it seems go against common sense to say that it would.

Quote
apostate
So Josh, please tell us what the "best way" is.

I don't know what would be the "best way". How do we define best? The way that most matches Jesus's example, or the way we think might best reform the theif? If we choose Jesus's example which example should we choose? The one where he let the adulteress go free or the one where he died on the cross as a substitute for our sins?

I have no idea the best way to reform a thief, I also am not really sold on the idea of Christians taking substitute punishment onto themselves (even though I defend the right of the JCs to believe differently), and if I'm 100% honest I seem to lack the faith to be sold out to letting people get away with their crimes.

I've always thought the idea of a shun seemed like a good one. I think the Amish use it. Whether it works or not who knows, whether it's the best way I have no idea. I just thought it sounded interesting so if I ever find myself in charge of some comunity maybe we'll try out shuns.

Quote
apostate
Defend the use of the whip.

I've been defending the use of a whip. Not as the best way, not as the way I would choose, but as within everyones rights to offer up as a deal to avoid criminal charges and as an object lesson for a point the JCs wanted to get across.

So how do you think the best way to handle this situation would have been? Do you think your answer is something that could be applied to all situations? It'd be nice to say we'd always forgive and ask for nothing in return, if some of you really operate that way I'm impressed.

Quote
Egypt-Eira

Quote
apostate
Eygpt... why are you hesitating? Join the group today. Commit yourself 110% to do what they say. Do it. Learn for yourself. You seem like someone who is able to articulate their opinion. Do the same with Dave after you join.

Not helpful

It would be "helpful" if you could explain why you think my comments are "not helpful" Egypt.

IN RESPONSE TO RRMODERATOR

XXXEgypt: You joined this message board to defend and spin for Dave McKay and his followers.

Not true. Simply not true. ???

xxxOne example is your choice to quote Hello out of context.
xxxHello chose to ultimately dump McKay and move on, a fact you ignored.

but if you look on the previous page at hellos post you will find the words ... and I quote ...

xxxThey were really inspirational to me.
xxxLots of things that they do- I support. Freeganism is great,
xxxKidney Donation is great- Jesus' Teachings- great.

IE lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater ....

xxxAnother example is your spin on the JK show.
xxxMcKay came across very badly on this television program.
xxxHe walked off the set when he didn't get his way.

Myself, my wife and my childminder all watched the show and ALL agreed that this group were subject to awful treatment on the show. All three of us. We have NEVER MET OR SPOKEN TO a JC, this is just an honest observation on our part. It is allowed to disagree with a persons opinion here???

xxxWhen people make a point about your behavior it's somehow "not helpful."

Lets look at your next point then .... I added the comment 'not helpful' after the following post ...

xxxEygpt... why are you hesitating? Join the group today. Commit
xxxyourself 110% to do what they say. Do it.

This is obviously sarcastic ... so thus not helpful. If it is to be taken literaly, then it is also not helpful, as you all know Im here to find out, and once again I repeat myself, FACTUAL INFORMATION AS TO THE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS that have taken place within the JCS. This post in no way helps ... and it is not apostates first such post ...

xxxThe facts are available to you or anyone else that is serious about legitimately
xxxresearching McKay, but you have chosen to ignore this too.

??? I dont know if you are reading my posts?? I am on an anti-cult message board to find out information on whether I should join a group which I have been impressed by through their TV appearances and literature. I have made no attempt to hide this fact. I have infact stated it repeatedly (see all my posts) But, seemingly you either 1 dont believe me?? or 2 dont seem to be prepared to have a sensible, balanced discussion about these matters.

Hello's post above is what im looking for ... it contains information which I can now go and research ... and hints at possible dangers I, and my family, may face ... THIS is why I am on this forum.

Perhaps we should start again, RRMODERATOR ...

I apologise if any of my posts seem in any way upsetting. I am only seeking Truth

God bless yourself and all on thsi message board,

EE