I just looked in on the JC forum. In my "Had a great time, wish you were there thread", Dave dismisses the concept of core beliefs. He actually calls them "false cornerstones". Unfortunately, I would argue that he is wrong. If Christ is the cornerstone of the Christian faith, then we must hold fast to what we believe with regards to that cornerstone. Perhaps it would do well for Dave to explain how he arrived at this conclusion. However, I would expect this explaination to include thoughts on following:

1. God created the Heavens and Earth.

2. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, thus bringing death into the world.

3. Christ Jesus was born of a virgin.

4. Christ Jesus died upon a cross for our sins.

5. Three days later he arose from the grave.

6. He arose into Heavern

7. He will return to judge humanity and his wrath will be poured out upon a sinful world.

8. Only by Jesus can we enter into Heaven.

This is the typical understanding of Christ Jesus when it comes to the cornerstone of the Christian faith. These are core beliefs. These are all written in the Bible. To deny these, in my honest opinion, is to deny Christ. I would suggest that Dave take the time to goto http://www.bookofconcord.org/ read the enire Book of Concord, then take a close look at his core beliefs. Chances are, he will find that he may very well be wrong.

Dear Eygpt-eira,

I will try to deal with your enquiries as "matter-o-factly" as I can...here is a recent small (yet typical) example of the blatant deception that is "stock in trade" for David McKay...(to quote)...

Dave writes: [welikejesus.com] ... bcce#19556
“It has come to our attention that a friend of ours (Josh) has been challenged on the Rick Ross forum (where we are not allowed to post) ....”

As recently as May 3rd (approx three weeks ago) a member of the JesusChristians (Grace!) posted on this forum on p292 (her own words are below in full!)



I just have a few things to say in response to all that has transpired in the last month, even though you have all moved on to other ridiculous speculations. I want to establish that I have not left the community, I am currently still with the West Coast team and that it doesn't matter that Ash and I have not written anything on the forum in a while. Have you ever been a little too busy to spend time on the internet, or ever wanted a break from anything?

And to Kirstie, I am very sad that you have decided to take refuge in a group of people who do not act Christian. I do respect the fact that you do not want to associate with us anymore, that's fine. But I assume that you still consider yourself a Christian, and so I do not respect, at all, the behavior that you have displayed since deciding against working with the JCs. I think it is appalling that you display our private emails for all to read, and that you told everyone my personal business (not to mention the personal business of the community). I wish that we could still be friends, but it doesn't seem that you want that.

I had a lot more to say, but have forgotten it, since it has taken me so long to actually reply to what I have read here. Good luck in labeling us a suicide cult.... that's pretty funny.

Oh, and Brian, I don't appreciate your snide request to have Dave "make" us stand up for ourselves.



JesusChristians are seen to post on this forum and David then deliberately lies that they "cannot", in order to deceitfully garner misplaced sympathy for himself...,

(...and you are prepared to trust this proven liar of a man, Eygpt-Eira because there are "beautiful thoughts" on his web-site??)


You may confirm this with the administrator of this forum Eygpt-Eira (Could you update me here Rick!!) David himself has been banned from this forum. Fran has been banned and a further JesusChristian who dishonestly used double identities.......however the overwhelming majority of the members of the JesusChristians are free to write on this site.....they choose not to, and David McKay lies about that fact to attempt to take gainful advantage (establish a false repute for himself) over whoever might not go to the trouble of investigating what he lies about.....


I deliberately nominated Martin and Vicki as contact points for you, Eygpt-Eira....they are the most recent ex-members that I am aware of, and I suspect that they would confirm many of the allegations made by other exmembers such as myself (early 80's) or Apostate (late 80's to mid 90's) or Barbiedoll (THIS YEAR), that' as I have said:

You risk losing everything you own, all your friends and family, your career and other personal aspirations, your psychological "health" in the broadest sense .... and perhaps your very soul.....by becoming part of unbiblical cult.

The Jesuschristians will NOT provide you will the contact details of Vicki or Martin because the JesusChristians are seeking to swindle you....as is the practise of most fraudsters, they "cultivate" their victims, with their seeming "honesty" and "personal warmth"....you are simply falling prey to them, when you take their words for granted and do NOT carefully v-e-r-i-f-y the claims they make about themselves.

Ask them what "legal processes" govern membership? Ask them who has ownership of any major resources (vehicles and property)? Ask them how David was "elected" or who chooses who will become "leaders"? Ask them why you will have no right to private communication of your own, with anyone external to the organization? (...do write and let me know the "answers" they provide you with, won't you!!)

Apostate has remarked that in the process of joining the JesusChristians you will (at enormous cost to yourself) be able to verify the criticisms that have been made of them here.....may I add, "A wise man learns from experience, and a WISER man learns from the experiences of others!!"

DON'T become a member of the JesusChristians....there are many worthwhile organizations (CARITAS or OXFAM to cite a couple) who would likely value your contribution, and from where you would greatly benefit from being involved, in preference to becoming trapped into being an unpaid and unprotected, distribution agent of Davids tracts for the rest of your life.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 10:14PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

I will try and simplify this for you Josh by replacing the word "thief" with "adulterer" in the hope that it may trigger some memory you have of how Jesus dealt with a person viewed as committing a crime. (I hope you do not mind me taking such a liberty with your words) I can imagine the Sanhedrin debating the best possible course of action to turn people from their evil ways, possibly like something you are doing in the below quote ... i.e. do we give the sinner five lashes, 10, 20? Do we threaten to turn the sinner over to the "Romans". Do we say stop your sin or we will whip your friend? And the Sanhedrin debated into the wee hours of the morning to finally come upon a decision. We must use the whip. How else can this sinner see the light of which we speak?

Anyway, here is your modified response:

Quote
Josh
What is the most Christian action? To follow Christs command to turn the other cheek or to follow Christs imperitive to love your brother and seek the best way possible to reform a adulterer (keeping in mind a adulterer won't enter the kingdom of God). If turning the other cheek would let someone continue along a path towards destruction should we do that or should we do what is in our power to try and turn them back? If we choose to try and turn them back is offering a whipping to them, or offering to take the whipping in their place the best way to turn them back? If not what's the best way to reform a adulterer? Wouldn't the best way to reform a adulterer depend on the temperment of the individual?

Can you see the surprise in the Sanhedrin's faces as they grip the whip in a raised hand when they heard Jesus's (modified to cater to this situation) response "Let you who is without sin give the first whipping"?

So Josh, please tell us what the "best way" is. Defend the use of the whip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 10:13PM by apostate.

Dear Egypt-Eira,

You have asked about sourcing more media material concerning the JesusChristians. Please find the "JesusChristian Visual Archive" now restored to the threads leading this section of the forum, for your interest.

regards,

Malcolm

Dear Blacksheep,

Thank you once again for your well researched contribution. There IS of course an unspoken "core belief" of the JesusChristians and it, of course, is none other than a belief in the Holy Authority of one David McKay....a VERY false cornerstone at that, I would have thought!!!

Hello all ...

Just pondering the above, much appreciated, message from Mr Wrest.

xxxI will try to deal with your enquiries as "matter-o-factly" as I can...here is a recent small (yet typical) example of the xxxblatant deception that is "stock in trade" for David McKay...(to quote)...
xxxDave writes: [welikejesus.com] ... bcce#19556
xxxxxx“It has come to our attention that a friend of ours (Josh) has been challenged on the Rick Ross forum (where we are not allowed to post) ....”

So, as far as i understand, this comment 'where we are not allowed to post' from Dave is intended, to quote you once again, 'to deceitfully garner misplaced sympathy for himself...'

Yet later in the same message you state that not only Dave, but another JC is banned, called fran, and yet another member as well. Surely Dave may be referring to this? Why ban them? I had been reading Fran's earlier messages and he seems honest, intelligent and polite to others ... so why ban him?

You then state that the overwhelming majority of JCS can post ... but surely there arent that many of them anyway, and having these three (that I know of) banned does not build a highly convincing argument. I dont see here evidence of deceitfully garnering of sympathy??? Perhaps you could elaborate ...

you see there seems to be a lot of heresay here ... and insinuation ... but Im looking for facts ...

For example, Has Dave ever killed anyone, or ordered people to be killed?
Has sexual abuse ever taken place within the group?
Are ex members in this forum who could provide factual lists of misdamenors, which are more than 'Dave was a bit nasty' or ' Dave is very controlling. I have a friend who is very controlling!! I know others who take advantage of my car!! These things are common place and not, and I emphasise, PRECISE FACTUAL EVIDENCE OF A DANGEROUS GROUP DYNAMIC

So, though I do appreciate your message, I would like to extract more FACTS from this forum.

XXXThe Jesuschristians will NOT provide you will the contact details of Vicki or Martin because the JesusChristians are seeking XXXto swindle you....as is the practise of most fraudsters, they "cultivate" their victims, with their seeming "honesty" XXXand "personal warmth"....you are simply falling prey to them, when you take their words for granted and do NOT carefully XXXv-e-r-i-f-y the claims they make about themselves.

But what Ive read seems to be saying quite the opposite. All literature is well referenced with biblcal quotes. Their TV appearances only show how unfairly persecuted they are .... people living an admittedly ' extreme' lifestyle by others standards, but one which seeks to exhibit Truth to a fundamentally mammon-worshipping world.

XXXAsk them what "legal processes" govern membership?

Well, I wonder what ''legal processes'' governed Jesus, or any of the OT prophets. A group this size, with Divine Love at the core, surely needs no 'legal processes'???

XXXAsk them why you will have no right to private communication of your own, with anyone external to the organization?

Is this true? Can you give me solid examples? On the JK show they stated the opposite, and it felt like they were saying the truth. Dave's wife seems like a nice, caring, maternal figure ... is she just blatantly lying?? I feel not ...

xxxA wise man learns from experience, and a WISER man learns from the experiences of others

Perhaps a wise man learns from both ... and so, far from me being a wise man :-), I am here, on this forum, seeking Truth ...

I DO appreciate the posted replys so far ... thank you Malcolm for your long reply. I am listening and will review the information many times. I have to say, though, nothing so far has put me off joining.

Perhaps God wants me to join??

Thanks again, EE

THE INFAMOUSWHIPPING INCIDENT

Have been reading posts re the much publicised whipping. My first thoughts of this were 'very interesting' and 'thought provoking'. I see that much of what is dismissed here as being 'desparate publicity seeking' could be better described as being 'emotionally evocative' or rather 'thought provoking'.

Two others who provoked by their actions, EXTREME actions I may add .... Jesus and St Francis

St Francis used 'enhanced actions' to create a kind of religio-drama in which witnesses could participate. By his actions he caused those around to think and to feel emotion ... I see such similarities with teh JCS and, what is here labelled 'attention seeking' or 'obsession with reality tv'

Surely the JCS are using the media of the day to expresses timeless Truths. I understand that those being whipped are willing participants. And look at how much inner life/dynamism has been created in all who have heard of the whippings. I would voluntarily be whipped for Christ ... Id like to think I would. If it was dangerous then thats a different matter, but I dont think whipping is necessarily that dangerous. Kidney operations YES, whipping, no. And it is certainly dramatic ...

Just a few thoughts ...

Egypt-Eira:

I have been qualified and accepted as an expert court witness in ten states, including US Federal Court, through what is called a "Daubert hearing."

IMO--the so-called "Jesus Christians" are a cult group.

Dave McKay essentially dominates and defines the group, whatever he says is right is right and whatever McKay says is wrong is wrong, whether it's giving up a kidney, becoming estranged your family or being whipped.

And in my opinion, McKay, like most purported "cult leaders," is little more than an ego-driven con man.

He preys upon and lives off of his followers, including his wife.

Most of the media coverage McKay has received over the years reflects this.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Sadly, McKay seems to only use Jesus and the bible as a means of manipulating people for his own benefit.

Apparently, McKay has no empathy and little if any sympathy for the families and individuals he has hurt over the years.

He offers excuses, blames others for his misdeeds and generally can rationalize virtually anything.

A mental health professional, such as a psychologist or psychiatrist, would likely find if they examined Dave McKay, that he is suffering from a personality disorder, e.g. NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and likely is a psychopath.

If you want to find out what "Dave" is really all about try disagreeing with him and refusing to give him what he wants, adamantly and steadfastly, without caving in.

The magic word that usually strips the sheep's clothing from the wolf is "NO."

Cult leaders don't like that word.

They will label those that express such contrary and independent thinking as "rebellious," "prideful," "arrogant,' "ungodly" etc. etc.

But this is more of a projection and a means of dismissing criticism than anything accurate or meaningful.

McKay has done such labeling with former JCs and critics, including at times, even his own children.

It's easier than most people realize to fall into a cult's trap, everyone is vulnerable at the right time and right place.

People fall prey to cults because they appear to offer high ideals, great spiritual truths, unconditional love, attention and generally make people feel special and good, at least initially.

But becoming dependent upon a cult leader is potentially dangerous and not in your own best interest.

And what might be at first perceived as good about a cult group, can be seen as little more than a con game of "bait and switch."

This has been proven historically through past cult tragedies like Jonestown, the Waco Davidians, Aum, "Heaven's Gate," etc. etc.

All the members of these groups believed they had found the "truth" and "godly" and/or "good" leaders, but they had been hooked by a cult instead.

Lately it seems like cults are constantly in the news--polygamist groups abusing children, the so-called "Followers of Christ" allowing a child to die through medical neglect, bigamy charges and labor violations filed against the leader of the "House of Yahweh," a baby found dead connected to "1 Mind Ministries," an elderly woman found dead at "Immaculate Conception Chapel" and on and on.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Cult groups all claim to be faithful, following the bible and/or only doing what God or some claimed higher power tells them.

But does God really want us to do what they do?

Dave McKay offers the same sort of verbiage to explain his behavior.

Psychologist Margaret Singer, the most recognized cult expert of the 20th Century, once told me that cult leaders are just plain "evil."

Following someone evil is not good.

"God" doesn't want anyone to join a cult.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2008 01:12AM by rrmoderator.

FOR RRMODERATOR

Thanks for the post ... nice and long and indepth.

Something about all thsi just doesnt seem to add up ... I mean, certainly there have been problems asociated with the JCS, but they just do not seem ANYWHERE NEAR AS BAD as these posts suggest. Ill just go tghrough your last post.

xxxAnd in my opinion, McKay, like most purported "cult leaders," is little more than an ego-driven con man.

Really? But after looking at the visual archive he has been performing his evocative 'dramas' for over 20years. Thats a long time for a con man to keep up a con. Surely its more likely that he is acting sincerely ...

xxxHe preys upon and lives off of his followers, including his wife.

His wife seemed lovely on teh JK show, and visibly supported her husband????

xxxpolygamist groups abusing children, the so-called "Followers of Christ" allowing a child to die through medical neglect, xxxbigamy charges and labor violations filed against the leader of the "House of Yahweh," a baby found dead connected to "1 xxxMind Ministries," an elderly woman found dead at "Immaculate Conception Chapel" and on and on.

Once again, insinuation by comparison. Dave does not seem to have killed anyone, ordered any killings, sexually abused anyone, etc. Just doesnt add up. And if the man has been leading his group for over 20 years, then surely we could take this as evidence of the groups stability.

xxxThis has been proven historically through past cult tragedies like Jonestown, the Waco Davidians, Aum, "Heaven's Gate," etc

There we go again ...??? Bizarre???

xxxPsychologist Margaret Singer, the most recognized cult expert of the 20th Century, once told me that cult leaders are just xxxplain "evil."

Invoking the name of 'singer' to justify the witchhunt??

xxxFollowing someone evil is not good.

no need to comment ...

xxxI have been qualified and accepted as an expert court witness in ten states, including US Federal Court, through what is xxxcalled a "Daubert hearing."

Involking the authority of qualifications ...

With respect, rrmoderator, I would like you to elaborate on a few matters. I need, as I have stated before, PRECISE FACTS as to what abuse has taken place. (Cult leaders are evil??) I am in contact with Malcolm, who seems v nice, and as I go further into thsi investigation I am getting a larger picture of the whole situation.

Best wishes, Egypt-Eira (from Ireland)

Hi Egypt!:)
Irish. Cool- I'm half Irish.
When I first met the JC's- they had my full support. People like Rick Ross just came across as hysterical. Rick, mate- Egypt has picked up on your point about Singer well! LOL
in fact- it's difficult to know what to say to you. You have your own spiritual journey to go on.
Initially, anyone who spoke ill of the JC's- I considered were on a witch hunt. As far as I was concerned- people became ' hysterical' and were acting on fear- without fully trying to understand the community.
I mean, the whole thing is pretty basic. Jesus is asking us to do things- as laid out in the gospels. The JC's appear to be doing those things. I devoured all the literature, met several members of the group- and really wanted to join. They were really inspirational to me.
Lots of things that they do- I support. Freeganism is great, Kidney Donation is great- Jesus' Teachings- great.
As a result of meeting the JC's- I went and lived by faith- I've eaten out of many bins! I'm now a healer- ( there are far more references to healing in the gospels than forsaking all)- the foundation I trained with works alongside the NHS. Once you understand the science and psychology- you understand why micro- chip technology is a bad idea!
Egypt, i've been thinking about you an awful lot today. You seem idealistic and really warm- hearted. I think one of the worst ways to communicate is by internet. I really hope, before you join the JC's- you'll consider spending a day or two with me. There are alternatives. At least check them out before you make a final decision.
I live in London- and have a partner- so this isn't a chat- up! LOL Anyhow, I'd be honoured to put you up for a day or two. I make great cookies and could introduce you to loads of interesting people.
Lots of love,
Franky.x