>>>(You have of course asked to be put in touch with some recent ex-members such as Vicki or Martin in order to verify what >>>the JesusChristians have told you about themselves, haven't you?)

Ill roll with that ... how do I contact Vicki or Martin? R they on this forum? What are their stories?

Also, has anyone read and enjoyed the cartoon books on the JCS website like I have? I am sure Im not the only person to have been affected by them. They are filled with beautifully expressed Truths, and presented in a fun, readable style. Well, any comments on the literature?

Be cool, EE

Quote
Egypt-Eira
This response seems to just be mocking my post. Bit upset really. I am a genuine seeker after Truth and am looking for some sensible dialogue about my possible joining the JCS, and about their literature. Not very constructive really.

Anyone out there wanting a constructive dialogue??

You misunderstand my response Eqypt, I was not mocking you. I was completely serious. I sincerely advise you to join them so completely that you forget any family members that love you, any individual life goals, lose any nagging doubts.

Why would I say this to you. It is because there are no arguments that can convince you otherwise. If I argue against your apparent decison to join the JC's it will only serve to make you think I am an enemy, so I do what is left to me as a sensible response and encourage your decision. I do this because I am confident that my experience and the experience of many other ex members is not restricted to us. You will find out for yourself exactly what we are talking about. So please follow through and join the group immediately with no delay. Now is the time for your salvation.

For Egypt



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 06:06AM by apostate.

Jayme said: [welikejesus.com]

In light of the FACT that Fran was there, and Craig was NOT THERE, (and one must wonder if Craig would be willing to accept the 5 lashes from a whip) it does seem very strange for people like Craig to be offering such "godly" counsel to us these days.

You should be pleased that I believe Fran's account that the whipping of the volunteer occurred without actually being there to see it Jayme. It is evidence that I am listening. Would I be willing to let a Jesus Christian whip me? No, if it was me who had been whipped your group would be sitting court somewhere answering to charges brought against you by a court of law. Why would I do that? Because I agree with the Kenyan governments stance that such things should be stamped out and because I am coming from a stronger place than the volunteer your group abused.

Quote
Egypt-Eira
>>>(You have of course asked to be put in touch with some recent ex-members such as Vicki or Martin in order to verify what >>>the JesusChristians have told you about themselves, haven't you?)

Ill roll with that ... how do I contact Vicki or Martin? R they on this forum? What are their stories?

Also, has anyone read and enjoyed the cartoon books on the JCS website like I have? I am sure Im not the only person to have been affected by them. They are filled with beautifully expressed Truths, and presented in a fun, readable style. Well, any comments on the literature?

Be cool, EE

Hey EE! Welcome to the forum.
I've read Survivors, Listening, Armageddon For Beginners- most of the comic books, and all of the teachings on the JC website. The Rick Ross forum isn't really the best place to discuss it- as this is a cult education forum- not a forum for theological debate. :(
However, there's a forum jcs.xjcs.org- where things can be discussed!:) There's no censorship and is open to all.
As far as I'm aware, Martin is still a JC.
Lots of love,
Franky.x

Egypt-Eira,

Obviously it's for you to make up your own mind about the Jesus Christians and I don't dispute the fact that there are some thought-provoking things on their website. They certainly talk the talk. What gets me about these people is 3 things. Firstly, they're obsessed with getting on reality TV shows. Secondly, much of their effort is targeted on selling David McKay's books, as opposed to working the with poor, the sick, the elderly, etc. Thirdly, if you really take the time to read their forum, you'll see what I describe as a "sneering, point-scoring hatred" towards ex-members and critics. On the surface it looks polite, but when you look closely and view it in context, I think you'll see it as decidedly un-Christian. Despite the emphasis on the teachings of Jesus, there's little (if any) turning the other cheek. It's much more Old Testament "an eye for an eye".

Best wishes,

Talamasca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 06:56AM by Talamasca.

Quote
Egypt-Eira
so much time and energy obsessing about DM and his group's activities. I have better, more satisfying, and more important things to do with my life.
David, I hope that you are reading this. I don't have to be so wound up worrying about you. It's only a matter of time. You'll get yours. I'll be watching and waiting.

300 plus posts. All discussing this Dave McKay ... he must be activating something essential within all of you??

I am currently getting in contact with the JCs directly with a view to joining. Have read their site and the teachings seem powerful yet direct. Have also watched the Jeremy Kyle show and thought that they were treated appaulingly.

Perhaps all this negative feeling and activity towards Dave is the persecution that we are told to expect as followers of Christ. The cross is peopled by those who criticise. Dave seems to have reached a stage where if people criticise him he can brush this off with humour and occasionaly with a bit of emotional bite. What is wrong with emotional bite? He is not a politician, so why not let the emotion erupt, filling words with power? How many guests have wanted to directly rebuke Jeremy Kyle for his behaviour? And how many actually have? I, for one, see that moment as being very reminiscent of Jesus himself ... its ok for us to read about Jesus, and 'meditate' upon his words ... but to see someone shouting 'hypocrite', (with his wife of so many years faithfully sitting beside him!) is inspirational.

Well, just a few thoughts. Hello to everyone, have read some posts in this thread and you all sound interesting!

God bless you all, Egypt-Eira




PS A question ... my friend has recommended that I read Survivors. (He knows nothing of my recent online researches into the JCS.) Should I read it?

If so, why if its author is so evil? If not, why?

Also Egypt- I'd just like to add that I invited Dave and Cherry to spend Christmas with me this year ( and my family)- the JC's are always welcome in my home.
I feel very strongly, however, that Dave and the JC's receive so much negative attention, because they do NOT follow Jesus' teachings. Personally, I find people who feed the poor and help people far more inspirational than trying to publicly humiliate a TV host. ( Even Jeremy Kyle! LOL :) )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2008 07:17AM by hello.

Quote
Yasmin
I think the crux of the matter is where you stated that you do not see something wrong with whipping someone.

I think you're right about that. I figured that's where most people were first running into disagreement with the whipping. That there was a whipping at all.

Quote
Yasmin
And it does add, given the Christian beliefs of the Jesus Christians the question: what would Jesus do to someone who wronged him...Turn the other cheek perhaps??
Of course, always easier to say that one than actually do it, for everyone, and most of us don't manage to pull it off very often.

This is a hard issue for me, one I've never been able to come to a conclusion on. What would a 100% sold out Christian country look like? Or probably better what would a 98% sold out Christian 2% criminal country look like? If someone decides to be a murderer or a theif how many times should we turn the other cheek? 70 x 7? Is that how many people have to die before we'd say, "Ok look we see a pattern, this guy likes to kill people. Let's lock him up or something."

It sort of seems like a cop-out to say I'll be Christian myself and turn the other cheek and that'll work fine as long as I've got a government that won't turn the other cheek to bring the smack down on anyone who wrongs me. A legitimate government gets its authority and direction from the people it was formed by so claiming to turn the other cheek while hiring yourself a government to punish for you is really not any different than demanding repayment yourself. You've just put in a middle man to confuse yourself into thinking you haven't demanded payment from anybody.

But the idea of a government that would constantly turn the other cheek would seem completely unjust. It would let the strong and the wicked free reign to trample over everybody. Does that show a lack of faith in God to act in a real way? Probably, but I'm sure I share my lack of faith with the vast majority of humanity.

Quote
apostate
It is curious that you say you have no problem with the Kenyan government whipping people and yet the Kenyan government clearly does ... . So having posted what the Kenyan government clearly thinks about the issue of whipping I would have to say that the corrupt police and the Jesus Christians are clearly out of line as the group whipped the Kenyan volunteer in 2006, 3 years after the criminal law code of Kenya was changed. This means that the JC's engaged in a criminal action. Still not having a problem with a professing Christian "quaker" group whipping someone?

It doesn't matter what any government thinks about a whipping as to if it's moral or not. If corporal punishment is a moral punishment it is just as moral now that Kenya rejects it. If it is not a moral punishment Kenyas previous endorsement of it did not make it any more legitimate.

I believe corporal punishment can be more effective than incarceration. It probably depends on the person. As long as the punishment doesn't cause any permanent damage I see it as only a deterent to prevent crime. Do you believe it's moral to keep someone in a cage against their will? I'd rather take 5 lashes than be locked in a cage for a month, but that's a personal choice I suppose. I can't look at hobbles and I can't stand fences.

Quote
apostate
Yes they did. That volunteer had the right to NOT get whipped according to Kenyan law since 2003. That was ignored in the dispensation of JC vigilante justice

The volunteer retained his right not to get whipped. Two of the three choices involved him not getting whipped (as long as the government follows its own laws). He could have had someone else get whipped for him or get turned into the authorities. He chose to give up his right to not be whipped when he chose the option that resulted in him being whipped. He chose to steal and he chose to not get the justice afforded him by the state. While he retained the right to not get whipped, he excercized a choice offered to him by the JCs in which he wouldn't excercise that particular right in exchange for getting out of the criminal proceeding for his theft.

What is left then to argue is if this course of action by the JCs was the most Christian. What is the most Christian action? To follow Christs command to turn the other cheek or to follow Christs imperitive to love your brother and seek the best way possible to reform a thief (keeping in mind a theif won't enter the kingdom of God). If turning the other cheek would let someone continue along a path towards destruction should we do that or should we do what is in our power to try and turn them back? If we choose to try and turn them back is offering a whipping to them, or offering to take the whipping in their place the best way to turn them back? If not what's the best way to reform a theif? Wouldn't the best way to reform a theif depend on the temperment of the individual?

Thanks everyone! Some great replys there ...

Now one point that I will pick up on ...


XXXbecause they do NOT follow Jesus' teachings. Personally, I find people who feed the poor and help people far more inspirational XXX

Well, Jesus is thought to have said, in Matthew, that we should give food to the poor, clothes to naked, drink to thirsty, care to sick... Certainly a group like the Salvation Army is doing such wonderful social work. Do the JCS do this sort of work? Do they visit prisoners? Do they give to the poor? (not necessarily money, but time or food?)

This would be a fundamental aspect I imagine that would define Christs true followers on earth.

XXXFirstly, they're obsessed with getting on reality TV showsXXX

Which ones? I know of Ronson, Kyle and wifeswap. Any others? One thought is that TV is an ASTOUNDINGLY EASY WASY to reach masses of people with a message. The JK show certainly got me very interested ... so in this case the Truth seems to have retained its potency despite the choice of media. Why would it be wrong to seek to use TV as a means of subtle or not so subtle evangelism??

I am now half way through Survivors and it has taken a somewhat dark tone ... but I am reading between the lines and surely this is a good description of how the JCS operate ... Also certain characters seem to be based on real life people. Reinhart for example.

Well, think there are a few questions in there, and thanks for welcoming me to the forum. (This could become quite addictive!!)

With Christ's Love, EE

PS I still feel a healthy dose of Truth and iconoclasm within the teachings. So much is given with biblical references alongside. These seem to be backing up what the texts often say. Jesus' supposed words (see EPSanders), if taken literally or semi-literally, would certainly promote a JCS lifestyle ...

From MALCOM WREST ....
XXX(You have of course asked to be put in touch with some recent ex-members such as Vicki or Martin in order to verify what the JesusChristians have told you about themselves, haven't you?) XXX

Have been informed above that Martin is still a member???