Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Talamasca
()
Date: May 27, 2008 06:02AM
Hi Kirstie,
Thanks so very much for your insights into life with the JCs.
I don't want to appear overly judgemental, but it sounds as if it was based far more around David McKay than around Jesus.
It doesn't sound like you had much freedom, e.g. to debate the teachings of Jesus. I'm sorry about that.
I was really interested to hear this quote from you:
"Discussions about "the mark of the beast" and "people marked for division" and who had upset them were daily topics. They did not hold back on their slating of others and I did not hear of anything being said in love for anyone outside of the group. Even my friends were slated and I was encouraged to cut them out of my life and cause arguments with them. It is true one is encouraged to not have contact with their friends and family".
This sounds so un-Christian. Can you elaborate on this at all?
I hope your back is better and I am so very sorry for the loss of your grandmother.
With love,
Talamasca
Thanks so very much for your insights into life with the JCs.
I don't want to appear overly judgemental, but it sounds as if it was based far more around David McKay than around Jesus.
It doesn't sound like you had much freedom, e.g. to debate the teachings of Jesus. I'm sorry about that.
I was really interested to hear this quote from you:
"Discussions about "the mark of the beast" and "people marked for division" and who had upset them were daily topics. They did not hold back on their slating of others and I did not hear of anything being said in love for anyone outside of the group. Even my friends were slated and I was encouraged to cut them out of my life and cause arguments with them. It is true one is encouraged to not have contact with their friends and family".
This sounds so un-Christian. Can you elaborate on this at all?
I hope your back is better and I am so very sorry for the loss of your grandmother.
With love,
Talamasca
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: May 27, 2008 09:18AM
Read the first page of that "Dare to be Different" article carefully..."Christianity gone mad" is right.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: May 27, 2008 11:18AM
DM was associated with the COG/Family beginning in approximately 1973. That's what page seven of the "On Being" article says; see "The Children of God Connection" blurb. Look carefully; this is from 1985. DM sure got a lot of ideas from them, didn't he?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: May 27, 2008 01:23PM
Those scans were meant to illustrate something: to prove that you were far more influenced by Berg and The Family than you will admit, David.
"Invading the churches," leeching onto established churches and denominations in order to raise support and credibility, is something that you have been doing, and teaching your group to do, for years. Usually they will tell folks that they are "traveling Christian missionaries" and invite them to a "Bible study" as a pretense to attempt to recruit and/or raise support. This is your group's basic MO on the street. It is a very deceptive and audacious practice. Also very hypocritical, as they'll try and "blend in" and take advantage of the very churches that they supposedly have such contempt for.
About a year and a half ago, weren't they hooked up with a ministry in CA called "Gates of Praise?"
Also the comics. And the "forsake all" emphasis, and the apocolyptic bent too. And your whole website, which is full of "Dave Letters" similar to the "Mo Letters." Many are the characteristics that you appropriated from your COG days. Like you got tired of being in somebody else's cult, and so went and started your own. You got tired of being somebody else's puppet and decided to take the strings to play puppet master yourself with other people's lives, huh David?
And how long exactly were you in the COG again David? Some sources say a few months, some say a few years. That detail I have yet to ascertain precisely.
Another thing before I go for now, something I was meditating on today: the story of the Centurion in Matthew 8. The Roman Centurion was the
ultimate representative, was the very personification of The System at the time and in that place. Yet he was praised by Jesus:
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Jesus never told the Centurion that he had to "forsake all" and quit being a Centurion. Same thing with Zaccheus. That wee little man won the Lord's praise for his devotion and faith too. Why is this?
Think about it. That's why I say that you JCs have no concept of balance or the larger context when reading and applying Jesus' teachings. Being a Christian does not mean that I have to give all of my stuff away, quit talking to my friends, and hate my family. Jesus addresses each of us as individuals and never said that absolute renunciation is for everybody.
"Invading the churches," leeching onto established churches and denominations in order to raise support and credibility, is something that you have been doing, and teaching your group to do, for years. Usually they will tell folks that they are "traveling Christian missionaries" and invite them to a "Bible study" as a pretense to attempt to recruit and/or raise support. This is your group's basic MO on the street. It is a very deceptive and audacious practice. Also very hypocritical, as they'll try and "blend in" and take advantage of the very churches that they supposedly have such contempt for.
About a year and a half ago, weren't they hooked up with a ministry in CA called "Gates of Praise?"
Also the comics. And the "forsake all" emphasis, and the apocolyptic bent too. And your whole website, which is full of "Dave Letters" similar to the "Mo Letters." Many are the characteristics that you appropriated from your COG days. Like you got tired of being in somebody else's cult, and so went and started your own. You got tired of being somebody else's puppet and decided to take the strings to play puppet master yourself with other people's lives, huh David?
And how long exactly were you in the COG again David? Some sources say a few months, some say a few years. That detail I have yet to ascertain precisely.
Another thing before I go for now, something I was meditating on today: the story of the Centurion in Matthew 8. The Roman Centurion was the
ultimate representative, was the very personification of The System at the time and in that place. Yet he was praised by Jesus:
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Jesus never told the Centurion that he had to "forsake all" and quit being a Centurion. Same thing with Zaccheus. That wee little man won the Lord's praise for his devotion and faith too. Why is this?
Think about it. That's why I say that you JCs have no concept of balance or the larger context when reading and applying Jesus' teachings. Being a Christian does not mean that I have to give all of my stuff away, quit talking to my friends, and hate my family. Jesus addresses each of us as individuals and never said that absolute renunciation is for everybody.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
barbiedoll
()
Date: May 27, 2008 04:35PM
I will give an one example that shows how ltiitle love is shown towards others.
When i first arrived in London i was introduced to a family that let the Jesus Christians have use of thier upstairs room. I was told that they are really lovely and Sue told me the The woman is "her best friend". I thought great church people who are friends with the JC. Cant be bad then! Then the woman (will call her J) had a very serious accident in the car, she believed that God told her to drive into a wall. She ended up in a mentel hospital for a couple of weeks
One evening we were all talking about them and Roland shouted at the top of his voice, "she is a crazy bitch" i was shocked. I very quickly turned to hm and said "but you told me that they are your friends, why would you call your "friend" "a crazy bitch" his answer wss this... "because she is evil! you dont know what they have tried to do" I did ask them to expand on this and they said that J and J would try to convince the young single people that they need to get married and the woman to have children. i did actually experience one evening the man telling me how wonderful children are and that i SHOULD have some, its what God wants! (well if it is what God wants then i would be pregnant by now!) However, this does not make them "evil" they are just expressing thier thoughts like the JC do every day. But with more aggression! I did try to get them to see what they were saying is wrong and not how you treat someone you call a friend. But they were having none of it. Sue was a bit sad when i told her this. She assured me that they dont talk about everyone in this way. I now know that not to be true! They have talked about me on a forum in a very personal way, just said awful things about me, yet Sue told me i was he sister and she loved me?????
They talk about people on this forum almost everyday saying how evil they (we) are and that they are hatemongers. And that everyone is crazy! These are the people "marked for division", to be honest with you i have no idea what they actually means. But i do know that anyone who argues with what they say are not living in Christ!
The newspaper clippings that have been put up are very interesting. It is true a lot of what Dave Mckay teaches is the same as David Berg. It was not until i read the book "not without my sisters" that i reaslised how similar they are.
I forgot to say in my earlier post. On a Tuesday they would all get down the running track for 8am to do a "phantom run" the running trck could be used for free before 9 and they could use the showers, which i welcomed massivly! Joe used the track a lot more as he is training to run in the ?olympics? So he would run a lot more than everyone else.
What more can i say???... im not sure so just ask me if you want to know any more.
Love as always Kirstie
When i first arrived in London i was introduced to a family that let the Jesus Christians have use of thier upstairs room. I was told that they are really lovely and Sue told me the The woman is "her best friend". I thought great church people who are friends with the JC. Cant be bad then! Then the woman (will call her J) had a very serious accident in the car, she believed that God told her to drive into a wall. She ended up in a mentel hospital for a couple of weeks
One evening we were all talking about them and Roland shouted at the top of his voice, "she is a crazy bitch" i was shocked. I very quickly turned to hm and said "but you told me that they are your friends, why would you call your "friend" "a crazy bitch" his answer wss this... "because she is evil! you dont know what they have tried to do" I did ask them to expand on this and they said that J and J would try to convince the young single people that they need to get married and the woman to have children. i did actually experience one evening the man telling me how wonderful children are and that i SHOULD have some, its what God wants! (well if it is what God wants then i would be pregnant by now!) However, this does not make them "evil" they are just expressing thier thoughts like the JC do every day. But with more aggression! I did try to get them to see what they were saying is wrong and not how you treat someone you call a friend. But they were having none of it. Sue was a bit sad when i told her this. She assured me that they dont talk about everyone in this way. I now know that not to be true! They have talked about me on a forum in a very personal way, just said awful things about me, yet Sue told me i was he sister and she loved me?????
They talk about people on this forum almost everyday saying how evil they (we) are and that they are hatemongers. And that everyone is crazy! These are the people "marked for division", to be honest with you i have no idea what they actually means. But i do know that anyone who argues with what they say are not living in Christ!
The newspaper clippings that have been put up are very interesting. It is true a lot of what Dave Mckay teaches is the same as David Berg. It was not until i read the book "not without my sisters" that i reaslised how similar they are.
I forgot to say in my earlier post. On a Tuesday they would all get down the running track for 8am to do a "phantom run" the running trck could be used for free before 9 and they could use the showers, which i welcomed massivly! Joe used the track a lot more as he is training to run in the ?olympics? So he would run a lot more than everyone else.
What more can i say???... im not sure so just ask me if you want to know any more.
Love as always Kirstie
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Egypt-Eira
()
Date: May 27, 2008 07:53PM
Hi everyone ...
so much food for thought. Its all flooding out now .... so once again, I shall investigate all that is said eventually ...
Think I am finally registered on teh JCS forum, if you want to read my posts there. Hopefully writing my first post today!!
Can I ask ... Zeusor, may you mave been a guest on theJK show?? If you wish to remain anonymous thats no prob ... if not, can you tell me details surrouning your involvement. Also, how was your experience on the show ... did Jk seem friendly or not?
Not much else to say really ... the information has come through at such a rate these last two days that I feel I must tread softly for a while. People here obviously have very strong emotions about the JCS.
Can I ask one more question ... does anyone here have ANYTHING to say positive about the JCS?
Yours with gratitude, EE
so much food for thought. Its all flooding out now .... so once again, I shall investigate all that is said eventually ...
Think I am finally registered on teh JCS forum, if you want to read my posts there. Hopefully writing my first post today!!
Can I ask ... Zeusor, may you mave been a guest on theJK show?? If you wish to remain anonymous thats no prob ... if not, can you tell me details surrouning your involvement. Also, how was your experience on the show ... did Jk seem friendly or not?
Not much else to say really ... the information has come through at such a rate these last two days that I feel I must tread softly for a while. People here obviously have very strong emotions about the JCS.
Can I ask one more question ... does anyone here have ANYTHING to say positive about the JCS?
Yours with gratitude, EE
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: May 27, 2008 08:34PM
Kirstie, thanks for the insight. I'm sure many readers will appreciate the courage with which you wrote it.
Some on this forum have not had direct experience with the Jesus Christians (me, for instance!) and so we appreciate your first-hand reports.
Please keep posting.
Some on this forum have not had direct experience with the Jesus Christians (me, for instance!) and so we appreciate your first-hand reports.
Please keep posting.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Blackhat
()
Date: May 27, 2008 08:36PM
If only all those good and righteous people, the Jesus Christians, who give their lives in service to their fundamental moral code, could be free of the contol of a man who is identified as a narcissist on more than one forum.......
If only Rob's moment of action and integrity like we saw in the report and press clipping could stand as a testimony to a man who used his moral faith to face danger to protect someone who was being subjected to summary justice......
......instead of it being yet another opportunity for David McKay to proclaim his own moral righteousness in the "social justice" he serves out to Kenyans who are caught stealing.
I am appalled.
If only Rob's moment of action and integrity like we saw in the report and press clipping could stand as a testimony to a man who used his moral faith to face danger to protect someone who was being subjected to summary justice......
......instead of it being yet another opportunity for David McKay to proclaim his own moral righteousness in the "social justice" he serves out to Kenyans who are caught stealing.
I am appalled.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
apostate
()
Date: May 27, 2008 10:48PM
Quote
Egypt-Eira
Can I ask one more question ... does anyone here have ANYTHING to say positive about the JCS?
Robin did an impressive action of helping the man who was being subjected to a mob justice.
Dave is good at writing articles
Roland is good at passing out tracts consistently getting the highest donations.
Martin is the best book seller
Fran is a good guitarist
Ross is good at rewriting secular songs to give them Christian meaning
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Malcolm Wesley WREST
()
Date: May 27, 2008 11:34PM
Dear Egypt-Eira,
As I am the one that "wished" Cherry to Hell, (although you will also have noted that Barbiedoll her, described far more favourably than I....I am only ONE of the opinions that are voiced on these pages).....perhaps I should begin with some "positives" about the JesusChristians....(even if they are can't be about Cherry!!)
You will be able to observe, if you look far back enough, in these pages that I've also sworn several times, in relation to David McKay.....as you are not familiar with the history of my personal experience with the JesusChristians, I really don't think you are in a position to judge whether or not, my behaviour is reasonable.
I admit to being "hypocritical" enough in my faith, to compare my occasional issues with "language" rather favourably to those who I consider engage in deceit (misrepresentation, undue influence, welfare fraud, possession of goods through false pretences), cruelty (battery with a weapon, psychological duress, food and sleep deprivation,) and oppression (extortion through slander, emotion blackmail, denial of fundamental human rights).
Of the existing members within the JesusChristians, I am now only familiar with David, Cherry, Christine, Robin, Ross and Roland. Along with Rolands' wife Sue (who I have never spoken to although I have seen her once "litnessing" with Roland in the streets of Melbourne), although they together probably comprise the "core" of the JesusChristians.
I won't comment then about people in the JesusChristians that I've never met, although obviously others in these pages are sufficiently experienced and entitled to do so.
Many of my "favourite" friends from the time I spent in the JesusChristians (Kevin McKay, the sisters Elsabeth and Rachel) have not LEFT the JesusChristians. I presume, Egypt-Eira, that if I speak positively about someone who has now LEFT the Jesuschristians, you will persuade yourself that I am "biased" (...because David will send you a "nice" letter alleging to you that both I and any other ex-member I speak kindly of are "embittered and twisted" ).....hence I won't say anything positive of the numbers of ex-members, although they clearly outnumber the few remaining current members I now know (and NOT including them, is thus actually UNREPRESENTATIVE of the totality of my experiences)....Apostate has ALREADY made some comments addressing your inquiry in previous pages.
As you will already have noted I have very little that's positive (there is SOME) to say about Cherry...hence I'll leave that to others.
(There are "pages" of positive comments and wonderful experiences that have been mutually shared that I could write about here...thus in very crude summary!)
Roland was determined to be successful within the Jesuschristians and diligently applied himself to the memorization of scriptures. He had a strong work ethic.
Robin, as you may see in the recent clipping, (who REALLY looks his father these days!), I remember for the kindness and compassion he showed to those with who he shared any time. His ready humour and the interest he displayed in the fellowship he sought to have with whoever he met, spoke worlds, about the gentle and warm soul within.
Ross was an intelligent and thoughtful man, whose company I really enjoyed. His musical ability was the expression of the "artist" within him, and it was a pleasure to speak with him, and learn of the insights he had made on his own spiritual journey. He frequently offered support to me, in whatever fashion it may have been required.
David McKay actually "nurtures" some spiritual development in those he encounters. My encounter with him, challenged me to reinterpret my faith, and look again at scriptures that I had previously carelessly glossed over. He has been highly influential in how I now perceive God (even where his "influence" on me, may not obviously have been what he wanted) and there was once a very humane and caring side to him.
As you are now familiar Egypt-Eira, with some of the "context" that I'd place these "positive comments" within (for example Barbiedoll's recent comments about her "daily routine" and the regard that the JesusChristians themselves have for those they have "marked for division").....I'll say no further there....
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2008 11:41PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
As I am the one that "wished" Cherry to Hell, (although you will also have noted that Barbiedoll her, described far more favourably than I....I am only ONE of the opinions that are voiced on these pages).....perhaps I should begin with some "positives" about the JesusChristians....(even if they are can't be about Cherry!!)
You will be able to observe, if you look far back enough, in these pages that I've also sworn several times, in relation to David McKay.....as you are not familiar with the history of my personal experience with the JesusChristians, I really don't think you are in a position to judge whether or not, my behaviour is reasonable.
I admit to being "hypocritical" enough in my faith, to compare my occasional issues with "language" rather favourably to those who I consider engage in deceit (misrepresentation, undue influence, welfare fraud, possession of goods through false pretences), cruelty (battery with a weapon, psychological duress, food and sleep deprivation,) and oppression (extortion through slander, emotion blackmail, denial of fundamental human rights).
Of the existing members within the JesusChristians, I am now only familiar with David, Cherry, Christine, Robin, Ross and Roland. Along with Rolands' wife Sue (who I have never spoken to although I have seen her once "litnessing" with Roland in the streets of Melbourne), although they together probably comprise the "core" of the JesusChristians.
I won't comment then about people in the JesusChristians that I've never met, although obviously others in these pages are sufficiently experienced and entitled to do so.
Many of my "favourite" friends from the time I spent in the JesusChristians (Kevin McKay, the sisters Elsabeth and Rachel) have not LEFT the JesusChristians. I presume, Egypt-Eira, that if I speak positively about someone who has now LEFT the Jesuschristians, you will persuade yourself that I am "biased" (...because David will send you a "nice" letter alleging to you that both I and any other ex-member I speak kindly of are "embittered and twisted" ).....hence I won't say anything positive of the numbers of ex-members, although they clearly outnumber the few remaining current members I now know (and NOT including them, is thus actually UNREPRESENTATIVE of the totality of my experiences)....Apostate has ALREADY made some comments addressing your inquiry in previous pages.
As you will already have noted I have very little that's positive (there is SOME) to say about Cherry...hence I'll leave that to others.
(There are "pages" of positive comments and wonderful experiences that have been mutually shared that I could write about here...thus in very crude summary!)
Roland was determined to be successful within the Jesuschristians and diligently applied himself to the memorization of scriptures. He had a strong work ethic.
Robin, as you may see in the recent clipping, (who REALLY looks his father these days!), I remember for the kindness and compassion he showed to those with who he shared any time. His ready humour and the interest he displayed in the fellowship he sought to have with whoever he met, spoke worlds, about the gentle and warm soul within.
Ross was an intelligent and thoughtful man, whose company I really enjoyed. His musical ability was the expression of the "artist" within him, and it was a pleasure to speak with him, and learn of the insights he had made on his own spiritual journey. He frequently offered support to me, in whatever fashion it may have been required.
David McKay actually "nurtures" some spiritual development in those he encounters. My encounter with him, challenged me to reinterpret my faith, and look again at scriptures that I had previously carelessly glossed over. He has been highly influential in how I now perceive God (even where his "influence" on me, may not obviously have been what he wanted) and there was once a very humane and caring side to him.
As you are now familiar Egypt-Eira, with some of the "context" that I'd place these "positive comments" within (for example Barbiedoll's recent comments about her "daily routine" and the regard that the JesusChristians themselves have for those they have "marked for division").....I'll say no further there....
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2008 11:41PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.
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