Current Page: 13 of 13
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: August 11, 2022 09:07PM

I heard a lot of similar things when I left the school, pointing all the blame at me essentially. Again, "there's nothing wrong with the school, it's YOU that's the problem." Ironically this whole attitude of trusting someone else, even if it's supposed to be the fellowship, which they go on and on about in clairvision, essentially equates to a guru relationship where you surrender yourself completely to someone else's "wisdom".

Ironically, in one of the free downloadable Knowledge Tracks (KT's), Winds of Change, that are available on the cv website there are talks about Teacher vs. Guru (talks 2 and 3). They state that Clairvision is not about a guru relationship where you completely surrender yourself to the guru and do whatever he may say, it's about fellowship. But like, oneclickwonder pointed out, Clairvision still insists that you surrender yourself, and your judgement either to your IST practitioner, your choir, your higher ups or to the "fellowship". I definitely believe fellowship as they define it is a complete joke after my experience with others in Clairvision. Most people are too embroiled in their own shit or too much on a power trip to give good "vision" about things that really matter. Or they are too hooked into the Clairvision meme to see the truth - they have been blinded by "what Samuel said", etc. and just parrot back whatever they heard in a KT, or in their most recent course, or what someone else higher up in the group said to them. To me there's not much different in surrendering your judgement to a guru vs. surrendering your judgement to a group, especially one that requires so little formal psychological training for its practitioners and leaders.

This was one of my biggest downfalls in Clairvision - the way they make your believe that pretty much any negative response you might have to something is just your reaction or samskara. I was made to believe that my own intuition, my own knowing was not valid and that it was my samskaras talking and not my intuition. Sadly, I believed this and I became very unable to trust my own intuition. Again, ironically I thought I was being connected to my Higher Self (aka Ego in CV language) through the CV practices, but really I became more separated from it by the power and other games people in the school wanted to play with me.

Thank goodness I have reconnected somewhat with my own knowing, even though it took a really long time. And I cannot encourage anyone else enough out there who is going through the same thing to NEVER discount those little intuitional pings that tell you that you shouldn't be doing this or that (even if someone tells you it's the right way or "in the space" for you to do so). And don't discount that the "vision" someone else shares with with you may actually NOT be more correct that your own perspective, even if your choir or IST practitioner, or someone high up in the organization told you something different.

Placing absolute trust in Clairvision on any level is a sure sentence for trouble. This is not an organization that is trustworthy in any sense of the word, but they are so convincing that they are. Watch out.


oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have heard things from other students since my
> departure including: you violated the trust of
> the school, you didn't do the work or handle your
> process in a way that was responsible to other
> people in the school, or even that have become a
> person who has done harm to the fellowship
> doubting it and its integrity; I was also told I
> HAD to trust the CV fellowship and its members by
> other people within it and that everything from
> the meals we were given there and the rooms we
> were assigned were chosen especially for us and
> that if we doubted a school guided by the archive
> we were betraying it. I was also told by students
> and teachers I had to listen to my IST
> practitioner and also that they were right no
> matter what and that I was being a fool if I
> didn't do so, even when my IST practitioner lied
> about things or misinformed other people about me.
>
> I still love the techniques but I hate what the
> school has become...

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: overlandtraveler ()
Date: August 27, 2022 11:47AM

I am sitting here in my kitchen at the table, considering what to write, as I have had so many varying experiences with the Clairvision School (CVS) and Samuel directly.

A bit about my involvement with the school- I will say that I can not give out too much info, as it would immediately identify myself and I am not ready to be outed. Please, if you do recognize who I am, don't out me, but I am more than happy to speak to someone via DM, always happy.

I started with the school, not from the very beginning in the 1990's, but I was part of the first full training in the U.S., before the New York property was purchased, and long before Berkeley and Shasta were around, so beginning about 2003 until I fully left in 2012. I met Samuel initially in 2004 when he came to the US to buy a property and have a full-time training and when I met him I fully knew that I needed to work with him so that I could learn and grow spiritually, as I had been searching for a while for a mentor and teacher to help me awaken to my latent abilities. I had been working with Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner's work (I was raised with it), but just reading books left me feeling empty, I needed more, I wanted to experience the worlds he described in his books, and I also had to (later figured out) retrieve a piece of my soul that had long ago detached. The Samuel I met initially in 2004 compared to the Samuel he became in the later years were very, very different people, and I fully feel that while perhaps the CVS isn't fully a cult, over the years it became more and more like one, so that by the time I left the school out of disgust and dislike for the overall lack of integrity and clarity, the school had really jumped the shark.

Everything that has been written in this forum, I have experienced myself, and to watch what was happening mostly from the beginning of the incarnation of the school in the US was really uncomfortable and lacked any ethical/spiritual integrity. While some of what has been written, I do disagree with, like mediation is hypnosis, that the school was new age, and a few other things, I did personally witness and or had happen to me, physical abuse, trauma abuse, mental and emotional abuse and various other scarring events.

My involvement with the school was always on my own terms because I felt there were so many ethical and moral issues and never told anyone about the school. It was like I saw with higher vision that this tool would help me get from A to B (funny, I hated meditation actually, and took years before I took it seriously, I was all about IST/ISIS), I did consciously use Samuel and "the work" to learn as much as I could, to further my spiritual development and awakening, and later learned after a discussion with Samuel a few days before he died, that he hindered my development intentionally because, in his words, "you could easily be more powerful than me if you keep doing the work." I was floored, but not surprised. I am now working with teachers to enhance my abilities and work as a trance medium, but it took the last 10 years to work through the very real and visceral abuse via the school.

I was excited when I moved to the school full-time in NY to continue my studies and to learn as much as I could, and honestly, I did learn a lot. At that time, I was on this intense quest to find and retrieve my missing part, and did as much IST/ISIS as I could, for me past life regression worked very well, I still use it with my clients, but with clarity, integrity, honor and love. I also call it something else and no where do I mention Samuel or the school, because I want absolutely no affiliation, and really do hope someone is investigating the school and will some day call them out for the unethical things they are doing.

It is my opinion that no one who is currently running the school and the extended courses like the ATE courses, has any business or ability to be do so and the school should have died when Samuel did. I am not surprised that the abuse has gotten seemingly worse because the people who are now in charge have no integrity or idea about what they are doing, none of them can do what Samuel could do, and they don't understand what they are teaching. Samuel told me in the conversation I had with him at the end that "you always got it immediately, I only had to show you once, no matter how advanced and you got it, I have never had a student who could do follow me like you can"

What was sad to me was why couldn't he treat me with respect and kindness? why couldn't he help me and mentor me? I was routinely pushed aside, ignored, rejected, laughed at and belittled, humiliated and often told that I was not "one of the inside team". I was with the school nine years and never, ever was told by Samuel anything positive or nice. He would routinely truly make me wonder if I had any ability, if what I was experiencing was real, if I even belonged in the school, but my feeling was that until I got learned what I needed to, I wasn't leaving and he did show me a lot,

His "'team" of people would often school or tell me what I could and couldn't say to people in the courses and school, what I needed to change about myself, always about how I needed to listen to them and take in their criticisms and their sometimes obvious hatred or distain for me, and this was always under the guise of "reflection". After some serious health events made going to intensives impossible, I lost all the people I did consider friends in the school, which was a pattern; don't go to intensives, and you are shunned, which is very cult like. I spent years with some of these people I considered friends, people whom I had gone through some serious shit with, and they just disappeared, which really hurt. Everyone who I thought was a friend, disappeared. I even heard from one person who got in touch with me that Samuel told several people to not talk to me, which they of course didn't.

A few years after I left the school I started to figure out who and what I was, and it took years and years to untangle the false narrative I was taught, to learn a different way of working with spirit, and to own my power in a healthy way. What they push is abuse and also a very narrow way of working with spirit, and importantly there are a few people (specifically a Singaporean person) who are sadistic and very cruel to people under the guise of fellowship.

I do believe Samuel had good intentions when he started the school back in the beginning, and even when he went about establishing the school in the US, but over time became more and more enamored with his power, his arrogance and his little ego. He chose some of the coldest and most simply cruel people to take over his seat, most of them have never "made the work, work", have hidden away at this school with their perceived power and coldness, believing they are demi-gods, and with my perception, none, not one of the people who run that school have any business doing what they are doing. I feel they are going to do severe damage to people, they are both power hungry and lazy, embodying the arrogance they were taught by their teacher, but without his skills and abilities.

What strikes me the most, and always has, is that heart, heartness, kidness and love were rarely if ever emphasized in the trainings and teachings. That harshness and lack of love and respect was very felt in the so called act of "reflection" (aka, i am reacting and won't own it) which really sits at the heart of the school, if there is one. Working with spirit is all about heart and love. Without love and light, you have nothing, except darkness, and I see and feel that is exactly where they are pulling from. Darkness often veils itself in "light", and so many are taken down the wrong path believing they are working with the light, and it is my perception this is what Samuel did in the last few years, so have his "team" unknowingly been working with very dark and quite frankly, very fucked up energies. There is no way back from this for them, so either they continue to do what they are doing, or if we are lucky, it will implode around them.

I stopped speaking to students and working with anything related to Clairvison about 2012, so I am unaware of anything that may have happened since then. I only spoke to Samuel that last week before he died, as we had been in communication regarding my health (again, if I disclose what was happening it might out me). It was so strange with him, I often wonder what our past history was in previous lifetimes, as it seemed we had a mutual respect while he also ran very cruel and really seemed to lack compassion. Honestly. I saw him like this with many, many people, not just myself.
He had one persona for intensives and public trainings and he was a totally different person in private. He was so mean and very cruel and cold, especially to the students he had sex with (again, zero integrity), my gods he would destroy them as people, and I always wondered why he did that, why so cruel? I watched women become anorexic and filled with self-hate when they were one of his sex partners, then he would throw them away and discard them like garbage, and they always ran back, fighting over him with each other, and as one person mentioned here, one of the women he destroyed had followed him for years and years, really dedicated her life to him, only to be asked to leave and disappear overnight. One day she was gone, and no one spoke about it openly. We all asked where she was, and I heard she had left after Samuel told her to. I mean, she left her family and son behind, earned him his US Citizenship (green card marriage, which is/was very popular in the school, again, ethics) and worked so hard to make Lynnskill a livable and viable place and business. She was a good person with a good heart, a bit kooky, and really nice. Always wondered what happened to her, I do hope she is well and has had some healing.

I know I have written a lot about the negatives, because this is a forum to unload a lot of that, but I did have good and great times too, and to be fair, I learned so much, I had experiences I wouldn't have had if I hadn't lived in upstate NY, which was fantastic, I learned how to work with land energies, how to hold myself in my own power (maybe because of the abuse), inner clarity and vision. and really, I found that piece I had to find, brought it back and unloaded a millenia of Samskaras that held me back from my true self. For that I am grateful to have found and worked with the school, and with Jean Paul, which I think was Samuel's true first name, saw it once on a credit card, but unfortunately never saw the last name :(. I loved upstate SO much and would love to move back to the Catskills, and I did let go of unwanted baggage and learned to live honestly, clearly and most of all, I am free.

I still wonder why I chose to work with the school, but I also see how much the rejection and distain I felt actually pushed me to find my true calling and self, that while the tools of the school were what I really loved, the abuse was only tolerable because I had a mission. Perhaps I could have learned differently with someone else, and while meditation is an amazing tool and path and I now use it daily, regression therapy helped me regain myself, and I haven't found anything like it, but only when done with love, compassion, intelligence and honest working with spirit.

If you have made it this far, thank you for reading, I know it was long and drawn out. I sat with this for a few days before writing to make sure I was clear in what I was saying. I am glad everyone has a place to come together and talk, hopefully doing so will allow for healing.

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Samuels real name and life before clairvision.
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: August 27, 2022 09:03PM

For what it's worths I often wondered what SS ran from. And why he didn't want the school to grow big or became fanours even though he really seemd to crave attention and control. used hypnosis a lot and had the highest possible opinion of himself. It made no sense. People claimed he was french-algerian and that his name was too hard to pronouce and that's why he changed it. But who knows. I would like to get more information about his life before clairvision.



overlandtraveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sitting here in my kitchen at the table,
> considering what to write, as I have had so many
> varying experiences with the Clairvision School
> (CVS) and Samuel directly.
>
> A bit about my involvement with the school- I will
> say that I can not give out too much info, as it
> would immediately identify myself and I am not
> ready to be outed. Please, if you do recognize who
> I am, don't out me, but I am more than happy to
> speak to someone via DM, always happy.
>
> I started with the school, not from the very
> beginning in the 1990's, but I was part of the
> first full training in the U.S., before the New
> York property was purchased, and long before
> Berkeley and Shasta were around, so beginning
> about 2003 until I fully left in 2012. I met
> Samuel initially in 2004 when he came to the US to
> buy a property and have a full-time training and
> when I met him I fully knew that I needed to work
> with him so that I could learn and grow
> spiritually, as I had been searching for a while
> for a mentor and teacher to help me awaken to my
> latent abilities. I had been working with
> Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner's work (I was
> raised with it), but just reading books left me
> feeling empty, I needed more, I wanted to
> experience the worlds he described in his books,
> and I also had to (later figured out) retrieve a
> piece of my soul that had long ago detached. The
> Samuel I met initially in 2004 compared to the
> Samuel he became in the later years were very,
> very different people, and I fully feel that while
> perhaps the CVS isn't fully a cult, over the years
> it became more and more like one, so that by the
> time I left the school out of disgust and dislike
> for the overall lack of integrity and clarity,
> the school had really jumped the shark.
>
> Everything that has been written in this forum, I
> have experienced myself, and to watch what was
> happening mostly from the beginning of the
> incarnation of the school in the US was really
> uncomfortable and lacked any ethical/spiritual
> integrity. While some of what has been written, I
> do disagree with, like mediation is hypnosis, that
> the school was new age, and a few other things, I
> did personally witness and or had happen to me,
> physical abuse, trauma abuse, mental and emotional
> abuse and various other scarring events.
>
> My involvement with the school was always on my
> own terms because I felt there were so many
> ethical and moral issues and never told anyone
> about the school. It was like I saw with higher
> vision that this tool would help me get from A to
> B (funny, I hated meditation actually, and took
> years before I took it seriously, I was all about
> IST/ISIS), I did consciously use Samuel and "the
> work" to learn as much as I could, to further my
> spiritual development and awakening, and later
> learned after a discussion with Samuel a few days
> before he died, that he hindered my development
> intentionally because, in his words, "you could
> easily be more powerful than me if you keep doing
> the work." I was floored, but not surprised. I am
> now working with teachers to enhance my abilities
> and work as a trance medium, but it took the last
> 10 years to work through the very real and
> visceral abuse via the school.
>
> I was excited when I moved to the school full-time
> in NY to continue my studies and to learn as much
> as I could, and honestly, I did learn a lot. At
> that time, I was on this intense quest to find and
> retrieve my missing part, and did as much IST/ISIS
> as I could, for me past life regression worked
> very well, I still use it with my clients, but
> with clarity, integrity, honor and love. I also
> call it something else and no where do I mention
> Samuel or the school, because I want absolutely no
> affiliation, and really do hope someone is
> investigating the school and will some day call
> them out for the unethical things they are doing.
>
> It is my opinion that no one who is currently
> running the school and the extended courses like
> the ATE courses, has any business or ability to be
> do so and the school should have died when Samuel
> did. I am not surprised that the abuse has gotten
> seemingly worse because the people who are now in
> charge have no integrity or idea about what they
> are doing, none of them can do what Samuel could
> do, and they don't understand what they are
> teaching. Samuel told me in the conversation I had
> with him at the end that "you always got it
> immediately, I only had to show you once, no
> matter how advanced and you got it, I have never
> had a student who could do follow me like you can"
>
> What was sad to me was why couldn't he treat me
> with respect and kindness? why couldn't he help me
> and mentor me? I was routinely pushed aside,
> ignored, rejected, laughed at and belittled,
> humiliated and often told that I was not "one of
> the inside team". I was with the school nine years
> and never, ever was told by Samuel anything
> positive or nice. He would routinely truly make me
> wonder if I had any ability, if what I was
> experiencing was real, if I even belonged in the
> school, but my feeling was that until I got
> learned what I needed to, I wasn't leaving and he
> did show me a lot,
>
> His "'team" of people would often school or tell
> me what I could and couldn't say to people in the
> courses and school, what I needed to change about
> myself, always about how I needed to listen to
> them and take in their criticisms and their
> sometimes obvious hatred or distain for me, and
> this was always under the guise of "reflection".
> After some serious health events made going to
> intensives impossible, I lost all the people I did
> consider friends in the school, which was a
> pattern; don't go to intensives, and you are
> shunned, which is very cult like. I spent years
> with some of these people I considered friends,
> people whom I had gone through some serious shit
> with, and they just disappeared, which really
> hurt. Everyone who I thought was a friend,
> disappeared. I even heard from one person who got
> in touch with me that Samuel told several people
> to not talk to me, which they of course didn't.
>
> A few years after I left the school I started to
> figure out who and what I was, and it took years
> and years to untangle the false narrative I was
> taught, to learn a different way of working with
> spirit, and to own my power in a healthy way. What
> they push is abuse and also a very narrow way of
> working with spirit, and importantly there are a
> few people (specifically a Singaporean person) who
> are sadistic and very cruel to people under the
> guise of fellowship.
>
> I do believe Samuel had good intentions when he
> started the school back in the beginning, and even
> when he went about establishing the school in the
> US, but over time became more and more enamored
> with his power, his arrogance and his little ego.
> He chose some of the coldest and most simply cruel
> people to take over his seat, most of them have
> never "made the work, work", have hidden away at
> this school with their perceived power and
> coldness, believing they are demi-gods, and with
> my perception, none, not one of the people who run
> that school have any business doing what they are
> doing. I feel they are going to do severe damage
> to people, they are both power hungry and lazy,
> embodying the arrogance they were taught by their
> teacher, but without his skills and abilities.
>
> What strikes me the most, and always has, is that
> heart, heartness, kidness and love were rarely if
> ever emphasized in the trainings and teachings.
> That harshness and lack of love and respect was
> very felt in the so called act of "reflection"
> (aka, i am reacting and won't own it) which really
> sits at the heart of the school, if there is one.
> Working with spirit is all about heart and love.
> Without love and light, you have nothing, except
> darkness, and I see and feel that is exactly where
> they are pulling from. Darkness often veils itself
> in "light", and so many are taken down the wrong
> path believing they are working with the light,
> and it is my perception this is what Samuel did in
> the last few years, so have his "team" unknowingly
> been working with very dark and quite frankly,
> very fucked up energies. There is no way back from
> this for them, so either they continue to do what
> they are doing, or if we are lucky, it will
> implode around them.
>
> I stopped speaking to students and working with
> anything related to Clairvison about 2012, so I am
> unaware of anything that may have happened since
> then. I only spoke to Samuel that last week before
> he died, as we had been in communication regarding
> my health (again, if I disclose what was happening
> it might out me). It was so strange with him, I
> often wonder what our past history was in previous
> lifetimes, as it seemed we had a mutual respect
> while he also ran very cruel and really seemed to
> lack compassion. Honestly. I saw him like this
> with many, many people, not just myself.
> He had one persona for intensives and public
> trainings and he was a totally different person in
> private. He was so mean and very cruel and cold,
> especially to the students he had sex with (again,
> zero integrity), my gods he would destroy them as
> people, and I always wondered why he did that, why
> so cruel? I watched women become anorexic and
> filled with self-hate when they were one of his
> sex partners, then he would throw them away and
> discard them like garbage, and they always ran
> back, fighting over him with each other, and as
> one person mentioned here, one of the women he
> destroyed had followed him for years and years,
> really dedicated her life to him, only to be asked
> to leave and disappear overnight. One day she was
> gone, and no one spoke about it openly. We all
> asked where she was, and I heard she had left
> after Samuel told her to. I mean, she left her
> family and son behind, earned him his US
> Citizenship (green card marriage, which is/was
> very popular in the school, again, ethics) and
> worked so hard to make Lynnskill a livable and
> viable place and business. She was a good person
> with a good heart, a bit kooky, and really nice.
> Always wondered what happened to her, I do hope
> she is well and has had some healing.
>
> I know I have written a lot about the negatives,
> because this is a forum to unload a lot of that,
> but I did have good and great times too, and to be
> fair, I learned so much, I had experiences I
> wouldn't have had if I hadn't lived in upstate NY,
> which was fantastic, I learned how to work with
> land energies, how to hold myself in my own power
> (maybe because of the abuse), inner clarity and
> vision. and really, I found that piece I had to
> find, brought it back and unloaded a millenia of
> Samskaras that held me back from my true self. For
> that I am grateful to have found and worked with
> the school, and with Jean Paul, which I think was
> Samuel's true first name, saw it once on a credit
> card, but unfortunately never saw the last name
> :(. I loved upstate SO much and would love to move
> back to the Catskills, and I did let go of
> unwanted baggage and learned to live honestly,
> clearly and most of all, I am free.
>
> I still wonder why I chose to work with the
> school, but I also see how much the rejection and
> distain I felt actually pushed me to find my true
> calling and self, that while the tools of the
> school were what I really loved, the abuse was
> only tolerable because I had a mission. Perhaps I
> could have learned differently with someone else,
> and while meditation is an amazing tool and path
> and I now use it daily, regression therapy helped
> me regain myself, and I haven't found anything
> like it, but only when done with love, compassion,
> intelligence and honest working with spirit.
>
> If you have made it this far, thank you for
> reading, I know it was long and drawn out. I sat
> with this for a few days before writing to make
> sure I was clear in what I was saying. I am glad
> everyone has a place to come together and talk,
> hopefully doing so will allow for healing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuels real name and life before clairvision.
Posted by: overlandtraveler ()
Date: August 27, 2022 11:55PM

I always wondered what his real history was too, and why he chise to hide and what he was hiding from. The thing is lots of people on the "outside" of his inner team would joke and make up sinerios about who he actually was and where he was from. It bothered many people that he wasn't honest, but no one called him out. There was a concensus that he grew up wealthy and I did hear him once say something about a summer home his family had and he would swim in the Mediterranean sea when he was a kid. The other things I heard included his distain for Waldorf education because he was booted from a kindergarten for using a black crayon as a kid and that he was a fat kid (hence his absolute distain for overweight or fat people). He really, really hated overweight people, to the point of ridicule and abuse, it was so very wrong and always felt off, but many things did.

As for the hypnosis, I can not speak to that as I never saw or experienced that myself, but would be interested to know what your experience was with this. In what way or how did you experience this with SS?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuels real name and life before clairvision.
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: August 28, 2022 01:03AM

To the world regression therapies, like IST techniques, is considered a type of hypnosis. I've tried both and I have to agree.



overlandtraveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always wondered what his real history was too,
> and why he chise to hide and what he was hiding
> from. The thing is lots of people on the "outside"
> of his inner team would joke and make up sinerios
> about who he actually was and where he was from.
> It bothered many people that he wasn't honest, but
> no one called him out. There was a concensus that
> he grew up wealthy and I did hear him once say
> something about a summer home his family had and
> he would swim in the Mediterranean sea when he was
> a kid. The other things I heard included his
> distain for Waldorf education because he was
> booted from a kindergarten for using a black
> crayon as a kid and that he was a fat kid (hence
> his absolute distain for overweight or fat
> people). He really, really hated overweight
> people, to the point of ridicule and abuse, it was
> so very wrong and always felt off, but many things
> did.
>
> As for the hypnosis, I can not speak to that as I
> never saw or experienced that myself, but would be
> interested to know what your experience was with
> this. In what way or how did you experience this
> with SS?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuels real name and life before clairvision.
Posted by: overlandtraveler ()
Date: August 28, 2022 01:26AM

Oh, OK, thank you for explaining your viewpoint.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: August 28, 2022 01:51AM

This is from Wikipedias article on hypnosis and it's short. But from reading explanations like these on what hypnosis is, I think if I was an obsessed narcissist who wanted a doting audience I could feel loved by and make vulnerable to suggestions, I would want to add hypnosis to my bag of tools.


"Hypnosis is a human condition involving focused attention (the selective attention/selective inattention hypothesis, SASI),[2] reduced peripheral awareness, and an enhanced capacity to respond to suggestion.[3]

There are competing theories explaining hypnosis and related phenomena. Altered state theories see hypnosis as an altered state of mind or trance, marked by a level of awareness different from the ordinary state of consciousness.[4][5] In contrast, non-state theories see hypnosis as, variously, a type of placebo effect,[6][7] a redefinition of an interaction with a therapist[8] or a form of imaginative role enactment.[9][10][11]

During hypnosis, a person is said to have heightened focus and concentration[12] and an increased response to suggestions.[13] Hypnosis usually begins with a hypnotic induction involving a series of preliminary instructions and suggestions. The use of hypnosis for therapeutic purposes is referred to as "hypnotherapy", while its use as a form of entertainment for an audience is known as "stage hypnosis," a form of mentalism."

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: overlandtraveler ()
Date: August 28, 2022 01:59AM

I didn't experience any of this, but I am also not negating your experiences, as I personally benefitted from using IST. But I understand that it isn't for everyone and it seems you didn't benefit from the technique.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: August 28, 2022 02:36AM

And I find your use of words very interesting.

I might have or might not have gotten anything from the IST mess, but that doesn't take away the hypnosis of it. Like cannabis is still a drug even if you are happy it makes you sleep better. Or unhappy it makes you itch.




overlandtraveler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't experience any of this, but I am also not
> negating your experiences, as I personally
> benefitted from using IST. But I understand that
> it isn't for everyone and it seems you didn't
> benefit from the technique.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 07, 2022 04:20PM

that's a fair point but I myself have often wondered if its really hypnosis or if you're just entering into an altered state of consciousness based on the possibility of humans entering into trance like or altered states of mind.

a hypnotic state is an artificially induced state of consciousness where as a trance is not necessarily a state that is requiring outside influence and can happen naturally.

I would say that IST got into the range of a trance like state but that it wasn't necessarily hypnosis. Im not commenting on other people's statements here, just saying I didn't feel I was being hypnotized.

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I find your use of words very interesting.
>
> I might have or might not have gotten anything
> from the IST mess, but that doesn't take away the
> hypnosis of it. Like cannabis is still a drug even
> if you are happy it makes you sleep better. Or
> unhappy it makes you itch.
>
>
>
>
> overlandtraveler Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I didn't experience any of this, but I am also
> not
> > negating your experiences, as I personally
> > benefitted from using IST. But I understand
> that
> > it isn't for everyone and it seems you didn't
> > benefit from the technique.

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